Without free movement we might have the bizarre effect of sham marriages between Brits and, for example, Romanians, to get access to the EU. Normally you would associate that behaviour with poor people marrying people from a rich country. Obviously any EU citizen would work but it might be easier to bribe a Romanian with £10,000 than, say, a German.
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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...
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EM2
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317 forever
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It was unprecedented and reckless to hold a referendum offering a change that was neither thought through nor even government policy (although a few ministers did want it). No wonder implementing Brexit is proving shambolic so far.
317 forever
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It may have been disillusion with London that caused Wales and the north to vote Leave.
Why would disillusion with London perhaps cause Wales and the North to vote leave? All you need to do is look across the channel to see devolution with strong regional powers in action in France, Germany, Italy, Spain .... There's a European model that England could follow with great advantage rather than turning its back upon with a pretence of bringing powers home, i.e to the great and the good in London, far removed from the Midlands and the North and still with substantial control over the devolved areas of Wales and Scotland. London is now the centralist dinosaur of Europe, with no signs of anything improving soon, with b oth our political parties more concerned with looking in upon themselves than with doing anything for the people as a whole.
Soft or hard Brexit. EU-citizens need to have a electronic visa. Lets see how many visitors less the UK will get. Going to Ireland (ok; normal people will fly) will take a double visa. So that makes that we also require a visa from the people of the UK.
Howardh
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EU to UK....visa (of some sort) required.
EU to Irish Republic....no visa, just passport or ID card
Once in the Irish republic....walk/bus/train over the border into the UK visa/passport/ID card free.
You couldn't make it up.....
Well you could, because you are!
Not true, you just made that up, and it makes no sense anyway - there's a big flaw in your thinking.
Howardh
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Let's look at this logically....
When (if) we leave, is the bureaucracy involved in EU tourists or workers to remain exactly as it is now? I mean...exactly??
If not (ie visitors will require additional papers - maybe electronic forms) won't anyone wanting to bypass all that simply show up, legally, in Ireland and cross the border thre into the UK unchallenged?
If so, what would the point be of extra checks (e-visas) when those we don't want in simply bypass them?
And if we don't wnat extra checks - ie remain exactly the same - then where's, er, the "control"?
It's one or t'other; which would you want?? I'm genuinely baffled about what Brexit voters WANT so here's a chance for one to clarify.
muddythefish
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Why would they blame Brussels for a problem caused by London ?
bramling
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For all the potential reasons for voting leave I don’t really see that as a big one.
I don’t see why some can’t grasp the simple fact that many people voted leave because they wanted to leave the EU.
muddythefish
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They wanted to leave for no reason at all then. Makes perfect sense.
Plenty have had their reasons and plenty of them have been aired in this very thread if you bothered to read it.
However i was under the impression that all the bankers were going to leave and ruin our financial services and thus the country but it appears that the Germans are building a brand new super duper HQ in London -http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2018/10/09/mcalpine-tipped-for-200m-plus-london-deutsche-bank-hq/
Because not a valid reason... its worse than a 6 year old stamping his feet. "Just because"
You just cant articulate those reasons or you don't want to admit them. You don't just do anything "because"
bramling
Veteran Member
It's nothing to do with feet being stamped on the floor.
The point is that a few people are suggesting that people voted leave in order to have a dig at the Conservatives, Cameron and/or Westminster. Whilst I don't doubt there's people who will claim to have done that, or people who may know someone who did, if this is being claimed as some big movement then I'd like to see evidence. I certainly don't know anyone who voted based on that reasoning.
It seems very much to me an (another) attempt by the remain side to try to smear leave voters.
Having said that, I'm sure there are leave voters who wanted to send the government a message that they're fed up with recent levels of immigration, which of course is quite reasonable given EU immigration makes up a substantial part of this, and in the knowledge that free movement is something continued EU membership would force us into being stuck with.
bramling
Veteran Member
Once again someone apparently claiming to know all about why leave voters voted how they did.
There are plenty of good reasons why people might want to leave the EU.
It happened. A small, but not insignificant, percentage did vote leave as a protest against David Cameron/Westminster. One study suggests that 3% of voters stated their main reason for voting leave was to 'teach politicians a lesson'.
You asked for some evidence. Easy enough to find. You could have used Google yourself.
http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153
Not knowing someone who voted that way isn't relevant.
Now, what would the result have been if that 3%, of which I'm one, voted the other way?
I've said here before that neither side convinced me, in the run up to the referendum, that in or out was better. I had to find a USP to decide my vote. David Cameron using the electorate to fight a proxy war because he spinelessly ran away from facing down the euroseptics in his party, was the reason that tipped me in favour of voting leave. Had he not called a referendum he'd still be PM. Us in the 3% saw to that.
You asked for some evidence. Easy enough to find. You could have used Google yourself.
http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153
Not knowing someone who voted that way isn't relevant.
Now, what would the result have been if that 3%, of which I'm one, voted the other way?
I've said here before that neither side convinced me, in the run up to the referendum, that in or out was better. I had to find a USP to decide my vote. David Cameron using the electorate to fight a proxy war because he spinelessly ran away from facing down the euroseptics in his party, was the reason that tipped me in favour of voting leave. Had he not called a referendum he'd still be PM. Us in the 3% saw to that.
muddythefish
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It was obvious Cameron was a spineless coward (among other things) .... so why should that "tip" you to vote Leave?
I'm surprised nobody's reported the confusion Nicola Strugeon reeks of.
She doesn't want the UK to leave the EU and appears to be doing whatever she can to delay it (another vote here, another vote there) - despite it now being a law.
Yet she is desperate for Scotland to be independant from the UK (and judging by the amount of money they get from England, hurry up then!).
That's twice she doesn't accept the will of the people's vote.
Leave or stay woman? Make up your mind!
She doesn't want the UK to leave the EU and appears to be doing whatever she can to delay it (another vote here, another vote there) - despite it now being a law.
Yet she is desperate for Scotland to be independant from the UK (and judging by the amount of money they get from England, hurry up then!).
That's twice she doesn't accept the will of the people's vote.
Leave or stay woman? Make up your mind!
It only applies in the EU I suppose as we are leaving it
She has 2 functions
Well she works for a party whose sole aim is to leave the United Kingdom which is what she is trying to do.
On the other hand she is the head of the Scottish Government whose job it is to support the will of the people who voted her and her party in and there was a large amount of Scottish voters who want to remain in the EU.
Its really straight forward stuff if you put the mind in gear
Euro 95 = E5, Euro 98 = E10 and Diesel is B7
The Met is stalling investigations into the Leave campaigns because of "political sensitivities".
Source: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/br...brexit-campaign-investigations-claiming-polit
The Met is stalling investigations into the Leave campaigns because of "political sensitivities".
Source: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/br...brexit-campaign-investigations-claiming-polit
furnessvale
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Perhaps the Met are more aware of the bias within the Electoral Commission which led them NOT to investigate similar claims against the remain campaign.
bramling
Veteran Member
Sturgeon is only interested in one thing - achieving independence. She has more chips than can fit upon her two shoulders, and it seems with the recent electoral decline of the SNP that people are starting to realise this.
They cant until all appeals have been heard by the EC
The 'why?' is in my previous post. I have explained my reasons for voting the way I did numerous times in this thread. I can live with the result. Although it would be a far easier thing to live with with hindsight. Leave lied. Remain were incompetent. Those charged with carrying out the supposed will of the people are an absolute shower of 5h!t. The referendum was unnecessary. David Cameron didn't solve the problem in his party once and for all. He just extended it to the country. And those that came to the fore after he slunk off are even more incompetent than him.
A representative democracy elects politicians to make the big decisions on behalf of the electorate. Major policies should be in a manifesto. Then put before Parliament by the governing party. "Vote for us and we'll introduce legislation to keep you in/take you out of Europe." Referenda are for plebiscite democracies. The UK is not such.
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Howardh
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