EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[nidave]

https://gizmodo.com/google-reportedly-secretly-bought-your-banking-data-an-1828341605

This can't happen in the UK due to eu legislation... Wonder how long that will stick around once we leave. Supermarkets etc are not allowed to track your spending via debit or credit card (that's why there are lots of loyalty cards) these rules will cease to exist when we leave the EU. Wonder if the UK will replace them.

You have been able to let third-party providers such as budgeting apps access your bank account data for some time, but since Saturday 13 January 2018, you're protected when you do so – as long as the provider's authorised. Wonder if this protection (again eu law) will remain once we leave. Will everything be sold to the highest bidder.

 

[radamfi]

Cycling guru, David Hembrow, left Britain in 2007 to live in the Netherlands because of how good Dutch cycling is. He has written a detailed blog of his experience since June 2016.

http://davidhembrow.blogspot.com/

When we moved to the Netherlands we did so as European citizens. We had a right to continue to vote in the UK in national elections (and in theory also the referendum, though voting forms didn't turn up) and a right to vote at local and European level here in the Netherlands. The brexit vote took away not only our right to live here, but also threatens to completely disenfranchise British people living in the EU27 countries so that they can't vote anywhere for anything and have to spend their lives hoping that policies formed by other people will not work against them. I don't find that acceptable but it's the "will of the (British) people" that other British people should be disenfranchised and it seems unlikely that this will be overturned.

Our response to the referendum result was quick: We did the only thing that we could do in order to maximise our chance of preserving our European citizenship. The only thing that could guarantee our being able to continue to conduct ourselves as citizens of a democracy. That's what it meant to begin the process of becoming Dutch citizens immediately after the referendum.

Our children became Dutch last year (they were educated here so had no need to prove their language ability). Judy and I are following them and we now know we've been successful in our attempt: after what was beginning to feel like an endless wait, we received the wonderful news just two days ago that we have been accepted and will become Dutch citizens. There are just a few more weeks to wait until it's made official by the King and we can attend a naturalisation ceremony.

We are thankful that the Dutch government has stepped in and will protect our rights in future. This is the best possible outcome for us. We'll have the right to live in our own home and continue to run our own business in the same country as where our children live and we'll be able to participate as any other citizen in this most democratic of nations. It's an honour. We will be proud Dutch citizens.

When we become Dutch we will have to give up our British citizenship. This means we will no longer have the right to live and work in the UK. It's a strange thing to have to do, but one which has been forced upon us by people from the country in which we were born. We now see this loss of British citizenship as just one of the many costs of brexit for us, and we'll add it to the five figure financial sum which we've already lost due to brexit as well as the two years of sometimes quite horrendous stress which we've experienced. This will leave a permanent scar.

On the 7th of May Judy and I became Dutch citizens. Dual citizenship is not an option for us and so becoming Dutch means we have to renounce our British citizenship. With this step we've lost the right to be able to visit our country of birth. It's a big step to have taken, but it's also the only step that could guarantee us a life free from stress and doubt about what brexit would force upon us in the future.

While Britain forced us out, the Netherlands welcomed us. We're extremely happy to have become Dutch citizens.

 

[AlterEgo]

Cycling guru, David Hembrow, left Britain in 2007 to live in the Netherlands because of how good Dutch cycling is. He has written a detailed blog of his experience since June 2016.

http://davidhembrow.blogspot.com/

The fact he has to give up his British citizenship is not something forced on him by the UK.

Why doesn’t he make mention that dual nationality in the Netherlands isn’t tolerated under the law there, whereas it is in British law?

 

[radamfi]

The fact he has to give up his British citizenship is not something forced on him by the UK.

Why doesn’t he make mention that dual nationality in the Netherlands isn’t tolerated under the law there, whereas it is in British law?

But if it wasn't for Brexit, he wouldn't even have considered Dutch citizenship. So Britain "blinked first". Arguably he probably didn't really need to apply for citizenship, because everyone keeps saying that Brits in the EU and EU Citizens in the UK can stay where they are, but is it worth the risk?

 

[mmh]

Goods are the problem. A very simplistic scenario after: Brexit I import 10,000 watt vacuums from the USA, which are now allowed here following a UK-US trade agreement. I can't ship them to the EU via Dover as (once they have cleared the queues) they will be picked up by EU customs at the new border or more likely when I apply for an export licence. However what is to stop me driving a lorry load to Stranraer, taking a ferry to Belfast and then driving to Dublin and selling my vacuums? Unless we have a border in the Irish Sea but the DUP have said No to that

I'm glad you called the scenario simplistic, I'd have said fantastical or less politely utter nonsense.

I assume your 10kW vacuum cleaner is just hyperbole. Why is hyperbole needed though? Nobody is about to make one, nobody will be able to buy one. Nobody wants one unless they want to use it to power a light aircraft.

Nobody in either the USA or the UK would be able to use this mythical beast without (at best) blowing a fuse before (at worst) it caused a fire. It would be illegal to sell in the UK (it wouldn't pass either BSI standards or EU standards - which will still apply in the UK unless revoked, we're not about to allow 10kW plug-in appliances!) and likewise in Ireland.

So your scenario is: why couldn't someone illegally import something and take it to Ireland on a ferry to illegally sell it in a pub in Dublin.

What you're explaining is drug smugglers, and they do that right now. Nobody is going to be smuggling illicit vacuum cleaners, neither an imaginary 10,000 watt one or my cheapy pre-regulation 2,100 watt one.

 

[mmh]

Cycling guru, David Hembrow, left Britain in 2007 to live in the Netherlands because of how good Dutch cycling is. He has written a detailed blog of his experience since June 2016.

http://davidhembrow.blogspot.com/

Lots of remainer lies, but at least he finally did what he should have done - but still couldn't stop but complain that they charged him and took time over it. It's all me me me.

Bit of a paradox that he had to give up British citizenship to take Dutch citizenship when nasty little insular Britain is perfectly happy with dual citizenship though.

 

[nidave]

I'm glad you called the scenario simplistic, I'd have said fantastical or less politely utter nonsense.

I assume your 10kW vacuum cleaner is just hyperbole. Why is hyperbole needed though? Nobody is about to make one, nobody will be able to buy one. Nobody wants one unless they want to use it to power a light aircraft.

Nobody in either the USA or the UK would be able to use this mythical beast without (at best) blowing a fuse before (at worst) it caused a fire. It would be illegal to sell in the UK (it wouldn't pass either BSI standards or EU standards - which will still apply in the UK unless revoked, we're not about to allow 10kW plug-in appliances!) and likewise in Ireland.

So your scenario is: why couldn't someone illegally import something and take it to Ireland on a ferry to illegally sell it in a pub in Dublin.

What you're explaining is drug smugglers, and they do that right now. Nobody is going to be smuggling illicit vacuum cleaners, neither an imaginary 10,000 watt one or my cheapy pre-regulation 2,100 watt one.

Are you being deliberately difficult or are you really not aware this is a hypothetical situation taken to an nth degree to get a point across.

 

[eotw]

I'm glad you called the scenario simplistic, I'd have said fantastical or less politely utter nonsense.

I assume your 10kW vacuum cleaner is just hyperbole. Why is hyperbole needed though? Nobody is about to make one, nobody will be able to buy one. Nobody wants one unless they want to use it to power a light aircraft.

Nobody in either the USA or the UK would be able to use this mythical beast without (at best) blowing a fuse before (at worst) it caused a fire. It would be illegal to sell in the UK (it wouldn't pass either BSI standards or EU standards - which will still apply in the UK unless revoked, we're not about to allow 10kW plug-in appliances!) and likewise in Ireland.

So your scenario is: why couldn't someone illegally import something and take it to Ireland on a ferry to illegally sell it in a pub in Dublin.

What you're explaining is drug smugglers, and they do that right now. Nobody is going to be smuggling illicit vacuum cleaners, neither an imaginary 10,000 watt one or my cheapy pre-regulation 2,100 watt one.

Yes, apologies it was exaggeration that strayed into hyperbole. No I wasn't talking about selling illegally in a pub and I admit trading over powered vacuum cleaners is unlikely however it was a EU standard everyone is aware of and there would be nothing to stop someone shipping and selling them to retailers in the EU. A more likely example would be GM modified maize to be used as animal feed - imported and milled in the UK and then sold to farmers in the Republic/EU.

So my point remains the same: A common suggestion as a solution for the NI border is the UK won't impose a hard border, let the EU do it if it wants to. This idea, of having no border controls between two separate custom entities with different tariffs, rules and standards is risible. If, on the other hand, we say we will have the same rules and standards then we might as well stay in the EU Customs Union but we can't as long as a red line is freedom from the ECJ which is the arbitrator of Custom Union disputes.

 

[eotw]

Just to add re NI border, there were only ever 3 options:

1. Impose a hard customs border on the NI border
2. Impose a customs border in the Irish sea
3. Stay in the Customs Union.

My understanding is that the government has legislation in the pipeline that make 2 and 3 illegal. Option 1 was been ruled out in the phase 1 agreement.

My guess that the short to medium term solution will be Option 1 (softest possible hard border) which will in turn mean that we will get a minimum deal from the EU as we will have reneged on our earlier agreement and in their eyes the GFA. Long term this may lead to a border poll, Irish unification and the break up of a different union.

 

[furnessvale]

As I have said a numebr of times but you seem to ignore.
1. There is more immagration in from NON EU Countries than EU Countries
2. As part of a trade deal Turkey, India, Australia, New Zeland will require freedom of movement with the UK

"Freedom of movement?" or have they actually asked for improvements and streamlining our visa system, a big difference.

Even then, what they ask for and what they get are two different things, unless of course, you are the EU and the UK has put a remainer in charge of Brexit negotiations.

 

[dosxuk]

Even then, what they ask for and what they get are two different things, unless of course, you are the EU and the UK has put a remainer in charge of Brexit negotiations.

Unless of course, you are the EU and have not been listening to the dog whistle "they [the EU] have got more to lose than us" shouts when all the evidence points to the opposite.

Lord King (brexit supporter) has had this to say, which seems appropriate:

"They must have been really worried that they had 27 countries to try to corral, how could they have a united negotiating position, they were dealing with a country that was one country, made a clear decision, voted to leave, it knew what it wanted to do, how on earth could the EU manage to negotiate against this one decisive group on the other side of the Channel?

"Well, the reality's been completely the opposite. The EU has been united, has been clear, has been patient and it's the UK that's been divided without any clear strategy at all for how to get to where we want to go."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45400994

 

[Mvann]

Unless of course, you are the EU and have not been listening to the dog whistle "they [the EU Commission] have got more to lose than us" shouts when all the evidence points to the opposite.

Lord King (brexit supporter) has had this to say, which seems appropriate:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45400994

You missed a word out.

 

[Bromley boy]

Mate, am sorry I was so stroppy, was halfway through weekend late shifts. It's not just scaffolders, it's all tradespeople that hack me off some times and my job is dealing with them constantly. Understandably to an extent they will say absolutely anything to get out of a house without an argument. They'll tell people on a Saturday night that they will be back on a Monday morning to sort out a problem they can't do at that time. They know damn well they already have their work for Monday morning scheduled to them and they won't be back. We get the customer on the phone at Monday lunchtime asking why the bloke hasn't been back and why they said they would if they knew they wouldn't. We can't tell the customer "It was so they got out of your house without an argument". Had one customer told that someone would be back Wednesday just gone. The person who told her it was on leave for two weeks from the day after he told them. Worst of all is when the tell someone with a dodgy cooker that it needs condemning, they fix it, get it working again and don't bother condemning it. We get the blame because big mouth told them they needed a new cooker. People automatically assume if something is condemned it is not safe. Another big one is asbestos. You get an operative who has had a busy day, they have a small repair on a ceiling and cry asbestos and say they won't touch it. Had one woman sleeping on sofas for a week after a workie nailed her house shut saying it was dangerous. Never bothered telling us of course. When she finally phoned us to ask when she was allowed back in her house she was back in her house same day. No asbestos. We got the blame of course. Anyway, all very far of subject but I felt the need to respond. Housing repairs are a dark art and most of our better operatives are foreign.

No apology required there. I feel your pain re. shift work.

Totally agree re. foreign workers. Eastern Europeans have a stronger work ethic than us brits, why? Because they come from an environment where if you don’t work you get nothing in terms of welfare payments.

Most immigrants I’ve met/know (a great many over the years) tend to be industrious, thoroughly decent people who know the value of hard work. It might just be coincidence but I’ve yet to meet a Polish person I haven’t instantly liked.

You’ll get no bashing of “Johnny foreigner” from this leave voter. Quite the opposite, in fact. I’m pro Brexit, anti free movement, firmly pro immigration.

 

[fowler9]

No apology required there. I feel your pain re. shift work.

Totally agree re. foreign workers. Eastern Europeans have a stronger work ethic than us brits, why? Because they come from an environment where if you don’t work you get nothing in terms of welfare payments.

Most immigrants I’ve met/know (a great many over the years) tend to be industrious, thoroughly decent people who know the value of hard work. It might just be coincidence but I’ve yet to meet a Polish person I haven’t instantly liked.

You’ll get no bashing of “Johnny foreigner” from this leave voter. Quite the opposite, in fact. I’m pro Brexit, anti free movement, firmly pro immigration.

Cheers mate. It may not seem like it but I don't like to go randomly offending people. Ha ha. Was interesting reading your points there and they are easy to agree with. Like all of my friends who voted leave you have compelling arguments for it, some remainers are guilty of accusing every leaver of being racist and stupid but that isn't my experience of my leave voting friends who are most certainly neither.

Regarding the Poles, two close friends are Polish, they absolutely work their arses of. I have to say that or they'll kill me. Ha ha. I jest. Ever since I was a child I remember my grandparents telling me about the Poles in the war, and the Gurkhas. They absolutely lionised them. Before I'd spoken to anyone from Poland or Nepal I already had the greatest of respect. Do I have a point? I don't know. If I do it's that my grandparents would I think have voted leave, unlike me, they were not racists though. They did have funny ways though, I remember when they met my first girlfriend who was Chinese. Ha ha.

 

[Groningen]

About the Poles. Some get a kind of benefit, but have returned to Poland to work there. This unemployment benefit is called by the Poles as "The Big Holiday". Intermediary, fake jobapplications and fake signatures. Known since 2009 and nothing is done abouit it. I am not sure whether this could also happen in your country.

 

[birchesgreen]

Nothing to do with the EU though but the shortcomings of the British state to allow people to get away with that kind of thing

 

[Groningen]

Have you already mentioned that after the mission of the UKIP was complete; some sugardaddy from the UKIP wanted to join the Tories, but was denied entry.

 

[nidave]

"Freedom of movement?" or have they actually asked for improvements and streamlining our visa system, a big difference.

Even then, what they ask for and what they get are two different things, unless of course, you are the EU and the UK has put a remainer in charge of Brexit negotiations.

Yes they have specifically mentioned freedom of movement between the countries as a condition of any trade deal.
as reported by the Express (so not a remin supporting website)
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...eresa-May-free-trade-deal-UK-freedom-movement

or
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...exit-plans-free-movement-visa-petition-CANZUK

Or
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brita...ost-brexit-trade-deals-india-liam-fox-2017-11

You think you and I will have any say in what deals are struck you are very misaken. What about the USA saying we need to remove rights and lower our standards (this has been reported many times) in orer to secure a trade deal with the USA.

 

[furnessvale]

Yes they have specifically mentioned freedom of movement between the countries as a condition of any trade deal.
as reported by the Express (so not a remin supporting website)
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...eresa-May-free-trade-deal-UK-freedom-movement

or
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...exit-plans-free-movement-visa-petition-CANZUK

Or
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brita...ost-brexit-trade-deals-india-liam-fox-2017-11

You think you and I will have any say in what deals are struck you are very misaken. What about the USA saying we need to remove rights and lower our standards (this has been reported many times) in orer to secure a trade deal with the USA.

None of the links you provide indicate any freedom of movement proposal remotely like the completely open door we currently have with the EU, so my comments in #11080 stand.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes they have specifically mentioned freedom of movement between the countries as a condition of any trade deal.
as reported by the Express (so not a remin supporting website)
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...eresa-May-free-trade-deal-UK-freedom-movement

or
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...exit-plans-free-movement-visa-petition-CANZUK

Or
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brita...ost-brexit-trade-deals-india-liam-fox-2017-11

You think you and I will have any say in what deals are struck you are very misaken. What about the USA saying we need to remove rights and lower our standards (this has been reported many times) in orer to secure a trade deal with the USA.

I think you are fundamentally mistaken in what freedom of movement means in this context.

 

[Bromley boy]

None of the links you provide indicate any freedom of movement proposal remotely like the completely open door we currently have with the EU, so my comments in #11080 stand.

Indeed.

And the first, if you can find the text between all the pictures, reminds us of Turkey’s desire to join the EU!

 

[bramling]

Yes they have specifically mentioned freedom of movement between the countries as a condition of any trade deal.
as reported by the Express (so not a remin supporting website)
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...eresa-May-free-trade-deal-UK-freedom-movement

or
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...exit-plans-free-movement-visa-petition-CANZUK

Or
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brita...ost-brexit-trade-deals-india-liam-fox-2017-11

You think you and I will have any say in what deals are struck you are very misaken. What about the USA saying we need to remove rights and lower our standards (this has been reported many times) in orer to secure a trade deal with the USA.

Whatever happens, British citizens would ultimately have a say via the ballot box, as well as all the other ways we have of engaging with our political representatives.

We simply can’t do that with the EU especially in relation to its fundamental principles one of which is freedom of movement. The only viable way to get out of that is to leave, which is what we’re doing.

 

[bramling]

Indeed.

And the first, if you can find the text between all the pictures, reminds us of Turkey’s desire to join the EU!

This brought a wry smile to my face thinking back to the referendum campaign!

 

[Howardh]

Indeed.

And the first, if you can find the text between all the pictures, reminds us of Turkey’s desire to join the EU!

Is Turkey's desire to join the EU greater han their wish to remain on half of Cyprus? Ie the former is virtually impossible until they remove themselves from the latter; as Greece and Cyprus would both veto any application (and of course the UK* - except we can't now). Of course ther are many other issues which Turkey have to overcome, human rights being one. So their access to the EU is still a long, long way away. The UK might be back in the EU by then, and we get to use that veto....

*Assuming we do leave!

 

[nidave]

Whatever happens, British citizens would ultimately have a say via the ballot box, as well as all the other ways we have of engaging with our political representatives.

We simply can’t do that with the EU especially in relation to its fundamental principles one of which is freedom of movement. The only viable way to get out of that is to leave, which is what we’re doing.

Of course there is going to be the opportunity for you to have your say in any deal - oh - why don't we apply that same suggestion to the final deal in leaving the EU... funny how you want to have a say when some deals are made and don't want anyone else to have a say on other deals.

 

[furnessvale]

Of course there is going to be the opportunity for you to have your say in any deal - oh - why don't we apply that same suggestion to the final deal in leaving the EU... funny how you want to have a say when some deals are made and don't want anyone else to have a say on other deals.

No problem with a vote on the final deal.

A vote that says we leave WITH the deal or we leave WITHOUT the deal.

The issue of leaving has already has already been voted on and decided.

 

[fowler9]

No problem with a vote on the final deal.

A vote that says we leave WITH the deal or we leave WITHOUT the deal.

The issue of leaving has already has already been voted on and decided.

What deal?

 

[furnessvale]

What deal?

Can't you see the end game? There will be a deal.

After the charade of "negotiations" over the past months the farce that is the Chequers agreement will be accepted by the EU as if they are making massive concessions to the UK. This will then be presented to the British people by our remainer PM as a massive victory, just like Cameron tried before the referendum.

Hopefully the people will be given the opportunity to vote against this "deal" and leave. Sadly, I fear the people will only be given the chance to vote against it or remain, and the whole charade will be put to bed and the politicians will retake their seats on the EU gravy train.

 

[Howardh]

No problem with a vote on the final deal.
A vote that says we leave WITH the deal or we leave WITHOUT the deal.
The issue of leaving has already has already been voted on and decided.

If that deal means single market access, within the custom's union and as members of the EEA I'll vote for it.
It would be interesting, however, if the government and/or Parliament decides a no-deal situation is untenable, which is what it may well do, what would then happen?
> Accept any deal at all to avoid no-deal (therefore kicking the "bad deal is better than no deal" into the scrapyard where the red bus is)
> Go back to the country and put the choice of Bad Deal (as above) or Remain back to the electorate. As for the general population, when it boils down to a "bad deal" or "status quo" I reckon they'd take what we have now and reject Brexit. But one thing you can guarantee is that May and company won't come on TV and say anything other than we've been given a good deal, even if it's clearly about as poor as Lancashire's batting averages.
So surely they should let the public decide whether it';s a bad/indifferent/good deal??
All this assumes they actually find the solution to Ireland.
Right now I'd put someone else's money on A50 being extended, maybe for two years as - unless we DO get a reasonable deal - we simply aren't ready for anything else.

 

[Senex]

But one thing you can guarantee is that May and company won't come on TV and say anything other than we've been given a good deal, even if it's clearly about as poor as Lancashire's batting averages.

No, of course you wouldn't expect anything else. Of course they'll crow loudly about the marvellous deal they've negotiated. But if it had been Labour doing the negotiating and they'd come up with a lousy deal, they'd be doing exactly the same thing. They're all just politicians after all.