EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

Good point. Paul Nuttall is one of the MEP representing my area, Esther McVey is the MP representing my area - neither represent people like me but if I want to a write to a MEP I have a choice and don't have to write to Nuttall, with MPs I don't have a choice and the one time I have written to McVey over cutbacks to a bus service serving the local hospital it didn't prompt her to take any positive action, presumably because cuts in funding for local councils is Conservative policy.

It's an interesting point that. If I wrote to my Tory MP, isn't he supposed to take a neutral stance due to acting on behalf of a constituent, and leave his pesonal stuff to party policy? I could just imagine trying to get McVey to give us more carer's allowance....

 

[eotw]

I was simply explaining the paradox that the majority of young people are left wing whereas the majority of older people are right wing. If some don't change with age what other explanation is there?

Maybe people born in the 40's, 50's and 60's are more likely to be right wing - influenced by the portrayal of 70's as a decade of disaster due to Labour government - people born later are left wing due to portrayal of 80's as a decade of disaster due to Tory government.

It is interesting that although a majority of people over 50 voted for Brexit, a majority of people over 80 voted for Remain.

In other words, people don't change as they age, generations have different attitudes depending on experiences.

 

[HSTEd]

A manual car wash near me has British workers, the nearby petrol station (with a drive through car wash) has Indian workers. How will Brexit change that? If the manual car wash is doing well why will the British workers leave and get a job starting at 5am in the middle of nowhere to pick and process green beans?

Leaving aside that mehanical harvesting of green beans is quite common and would displace the remaining manual harvesting if wage costs were to rise.

Wage costs will drive out those businesses that cannot pay them - and manual car washes are unlikely to withstand an increase in said costs.

 

[HSTEd]

So either prices will rise or more jobs will be automated. Neither of these are particularly helpful to those who voted Brexit because of fears about high prices and there being enough jobs to go around. The workers may be freed but will they have the ability to raise themselves out of low-paid manual work without assistance?

Low paid wages would rise faster than prices in such a scenario, as wages are not the entire cost base for a business and the business will reoptimise its costs to use less labour.

Low waged manual labour would become slightly less low waged manual labour

 

[northwichcat]

Leaving aside that mehanical harvesting of green beans is quite common and would displace the remaining manual harvesting if wage costs were to rise.

Wage costs will drive out those businesses that cannot pay them - and manual car washes are unlikely to withstand an increase in said costs.

Don't get your point. Are you saying Brexit will mean people won't be able at afford to get their cars cleaned or that Brexit will mean employers will pay a lot more for low skilled workers meaning the car washers will get better paid low skilled jobs (increasing the prices consumers pay)?

 

[bramling]

Don't get your point. Are you saying Brexit will mean people won't be able at afford to get their cars cleaned or that Brexit will mean employers will pay a lot more for low skilled workers meaning the car washers will get better paid low skilled jobs (increasing the prices consumers pay)?

More likely there will be a return to mechanised car washes, which (round here at least) seem to have been closing down at a rapid rate over the last decade.

The nearest decent one to me is 10 miles away, which I use on principle rather than pay EU citizens to wash my car by hand - plus it does a better job.

 

[northwichcat]

More likely there will be a return to mechanised car washes, which (round here at least) seem to have been closing down at a rapid rate over the last decade.

The nearest decent one to me is 10 miles away, which I use on principle rather than pay EU citizens to wash my car by hand - plus it does a better job.

Like I said in an earlier post the one near me is manned by British people but you could pay the Indian immigrants to use the automatic one at the local petrol station if you prefer.

 

[bramling]

Like I said in an earlier post the one near me is manned by British people but you could pay the Indian immigrants to use the automatic one at the local petrol station if you prefer.

Come to the south-east and you won't so readily find British people washing cars.

 

[mmh]

A manual car wash near me has British workers, the nearby petrol station (with a drive through car wash) has Indian workers. How will Brexit change that? If the manual car wash is doing well why will the British workers leave and get a job starting at 5am in the middle of nowhere to pick and process green beans?

I get really annoyed by this myth that British workers are somehow like supermodels who won't get out of bed or risk breaking a nail for less than 50 grand.

It's utter nonsense perpetuated by desk-jockeys (I'm one of those) with no experience of physical trades other than maybe getting their bathroom re-tiled by Jakub cheaper than James wanted for it.

My ex is a scaffolder, and does pretty well out of it. His days usually start about 5 to drive to the yard or be picked up, to go somewhere random. He usually (but not always) finished earlier than I did with my oh-so-taxing 9-5 job, and if we met in a pub he'd be there before me, unsurprisingly, and quite rightly.

In the thread about the Crossrail delay someone posted that they'd met someone working on it in a pub who'd finished early on a Friday and suggested that's a sign of why it's late. It amazes me there are people who don't understand that's perfectly normal.

(Plus, this is a railway forum, when do these people think the lazy British workers do the manual work?)

 

[fowler9]

I get really annoyed by this myth that British workers are somehow like supermodels who won't get out of bed or risk breaking a nail for less than 50 grand.

It's utter nonsense perpetuated by desk-jockeys (I'm one of those) with no experience of physical trades other than maybe getting their bathroom re-tiled by Jakub cheaper than James wanted for it.

My ex is a scaffolder, and does pretty well out of it. His days usually start about 5 to drive to the yard or be picked up, to go somewhere random. He usually (but not always) finished earlier than I did with my oh-so-taxing 9-5 job, and if we met in a pub he'd be there before me, unsurprisingly, and quite rightly.

In the thread about the Crossrail delay someone posted that they'd met someone working on it in a pub who'd finished early on a Friday and suggested that's a sign of why it's late. It amazes me there are people who don't understand that's perfectly normal.

(Plus, this is a railway forum, when do these people think the lazy British workers do the manual work?)

I really don't get your point here. What is it? People who get up earlier start work earlier and finish earlier? Who are Jakub and James? I am a desk jockey who has worked in a factory, has cleaned St Helens and Huyton bus stations along with a factory on the dock road. Do you have a point? Would love to know if your ex did any scaffolding for our company, they mostly seem bone idle and leave it lying around for weeks on end where it isn't needed and charge people for the none use of it.

 

[mmh]

Maybe people born in the 40's, 50's and 60's are more likely to be right wing - influenced by the portrayal of 70's as a decade of disaster due to Labour government - people born later are left wing due to portrayal of 80's as a decade of disaster due to Tory government.

It is interesting that although a majority of people over 50 voted for Brexit, a majority of people over 80 voted for Remain.

Can we please stop making such wild claims? There is no evidence for that. We don't declare our age when we vote.

 

[433N]

More likely there will be a return to mechanised car washes, which (round here at least) seem to have been closing down at a rapid rate over the last decade.

The nearest decent one to me is 10 miles away, which I use on principle rather than pay EU citizens to wash my car by hand - plus it does a better job.

Can you expound what principle that is ?

 

[northwichcat]

I get really annoyed by this myth that British workers are somehow like supermodels who won't get out of bed or risk breaking a nail for less than 50 grand.
...
(Plus, this is a railway forum, when do these people think the lazy British workers do the manual work?)

Why don't you read what I'm actually saying. I'm asking why would British workers stop doing a manual job they already do to take on another manual job which is less conveniently located and requires working more unsociable hours as implied by @HSTEd? Railway workers often argue on here that working unsociable hours is one of the reasons they are better paid than other workers. If British workers are expected to take the manual jobs with less sociable hours when they already have surely they'll want a higher rate of pay. Then if employers offer a higher rate of pay (I'm not saying £50k, but something like £9/hour rather than the minimum wage) then we'll see an increase in prices.

 

[Ianno87]

More likely there will be a return to mechanised car washes, which (round here at least) seem to have been closing down at a rapid rate over the last decade.

The nearest decent one to me is 10 miles away, which I use on principle rather than pay EU citizens to wash my car by hand - plus it does a better job.

Gentle reminder: "EU citizens" includes those from the UK. Has been the case since 1974, and will remain the case until March next year.

Needless to say, Not quite sure I understand the mentality of driving some distance out of your way to avoid the prospect of your car being washed by somebody foreign.

Ironically you are using more fuel to get there, so more money at the pump ending up in the pocket of some non-UK oil firm anyway.

I trust you're never planning to travel on Crossrail then? A very significant Eastern European workforce contributed to its construction.

 

[northwichcat]

Gentle reminder: "EU citizens" includes those from the UK. Has been the case since 1974, and will remain the case until March next year.

Needless to say, Not quite sure I understand the mentality of driving some distance out of your way to avoid the prospect of your car being washed by somebody foreign.

Ironically you are using more fuel to get there, so more money at the pump ending up in the pocket of some non-UK oil firm anyway.

I trust you're never planning to travel on Crossrail then? A very significant Eastern European workforce contributed to its construction.

I can just see @bramling in a shop. Trevor's manning the till and serves the person in front of him, then out comes Aleksandra and she takes over from Trevor before bramling is served, so he storms out and goes to another shop.

 

[bramling]

Gentle reminder: "EU citizens" includes those from the UK. Has been the case since 1974, and will remain the case until March next year.

As you say, until March next year (hopefully).

Needless to say, Not quite sure I understand the mentality of driving some distance out of your way to avoid the prospect of your car being washed by somebody foreign.

Ironically you are using more fuel to get there, so more money at the pump ending up in the pocket of some non-UK oil firm anyway.

I didn't say I drive ten miles out of my way, as it's quite possible to use it whilst on the way to/from other things. In actual fact I prefer a mechanised wash anyway, so I'd rather it wasn't handwashed by anyone - far less by people having come to the country specially to do that task, and doubtlessly contributing little or no tax in the process.

I trust you're never planning to travel on Crossrail then? A very significant Eastern European workforce contributed to its construction.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement given recent news...

 

[fowler9]

As you say, until March next year (hopefully).



I didn't say I drive ten miles out of my way, as it's quite possible to use it whilst on the way to/from other things. In actual fact I prefer a mechanised wash anyway, so I'd rather it wasn't handwashed by anyone - far less by people having come to the country specially to do that task, and doubtlessly contributing little or no tax in the process.



Not exactly a ringing endorsement given recent news...

Priceless, Crossrail is late because of foreign workers. Ha ha.

 

[Bromley boy]

I really don't get your point here. What is it? People who get up earlier start work earlier and finish earlier? Who are Jakub and James? I am a desk jockey who has worked in a factory, has cleaned St Helens and Huyton bus stations along with a factory on the dock road. Do you have a point? Would love to know if your ex did any scaffolding for our company, they mostly seem bone idle and leave it lying around for weeks on end where it isn't needed and charge people for the none use of it.

I think his point is simply that a lot of people are oblivious to the fact that workers in different industries often work at funny times of the day and night - clearly you may not be one of them since it sounds like you’ve done shift work (it also sounds like a scaffolder has rubbed you up the wrong way at some point ).

I also know what he means about the strange recurring argument that EU workers are a magic bullet needed to do jobs Brits “don’t want to do.” While ever we have a significant rump of unemployed people in this country surely we should be looking to get them working before we take workers in from abroad to do low skilled entry level jobs!?

I’m fully in favour of immigration where there’s a need due to skills shortages, for example, but I’m not in favour of open door free movement. It has distorted the Labour market and put a lot of pressure on British tradesmen who have to try to live life in the U.K. (with U.K. costs of living) and find themselves competing with Eastern European tradesmen who might live several to a room and send their earnings back home.

To be clear I don’t blame them for doing that as individuals at all - and I’m not saying we should be asking them all to leave! But the system that allows them to do it is a silly one.

 

[Bromley boy]

More likely there will be a return to mechanised car washes, which (round here at least) seem to have been closing down at a rapid rate over the last decade.

The nearest decent one to me is 10 miles away, which I use on principle rather than pay EU citizens to wash my car by hand - plus it does a better job.

I’ve read a few reports recently that these businesses are often used as a front for criminal enterprise, smuggling, money laundering (cash business) etc.

I must admit I do use them myself basically because I’m lazy: they do both outside and inside and I can’t be bothered to vacuum the interior myself, which I would have to do if I used an automatic wash.

The thought has crossed my mind that it would be difficult for them to be viable businesses considering what they charge, the cost of employment, materials etc. Which points to them either exploiting their staff or doing something more lucrative (and more shady) in the background!

 

[bramling]

I’ve read a few reports recently that these businesses are often used as a front for criminal enterprise, smuggling, money laundering (cash business) etc.

I must admit I do use them myself basically because I’m lazy: they do both outside and inside and I can’t be bothered to vacuum the interior myself, which I would have to do if I used an automatic wash.

The thought has crossed my mind that it would be difficult for them to be viable businesses considering what they charge, the cost of employment, materials etc. Which points to them either exploiting their staff or doing something more lucrative (and more shady) in the background!

The other half had a bad experience with one who used a scraper to remove bird s**t which promptly left a load of markings on the paintwork, despite having specifically requested them not to try and remove it by hand - it seems there were what might be termed language communication difficulties, as an aside something not uncommon with restaurant orders too at times.

Mechanised car wash all the way for me - with my E39 being almost heritage nowadays I’m rather picky about how it is washed and by whom, in particular as there is some lacquer missing in a couple of places which can be made rather worse if not washed carefully. I also like the underbody washing which has been very effective in preventing corrosion. A couple of months ago I had the car up on a ramp in Barmouth to check something out and the mechanic was amazed at the almost complete lack of corrosion on an 18-year-old car. Glad I’ve not been tempted to use the Europeans!

I kind of gave up vacuuming my car years ago inside - no sooner is it done then I visit another disused railway tunnel and end up getting mud everywhere again. The interior valet carried out as part of servicing is enough to keep it okay albeit not immaculate.

I can’t really comment on whether these washes might be outfits for something else, although it wouldn’t surprise me at all. I can’t see how the contribute much in tax revenue though. Round my way they don’t seem to get much patronage, although the ones I see in north London always seem busy.

 

[Bromley boy]

To wrap up, as a forthright Brexiter what are your views on how to solve the Irish border issues? And how do you think we can prevent gridlock around our port towns/cities and their surrounding areas following Brexit?

Sorry I missed this before (it sounds like we actually agree on quite a bit, politically, from the rest of your post).

I suppose I see the Irish border issue as a small bump in the road to the wider Brexit process which has been blown out of all proportion. It’s being talked up by remainers who are desperate to exaggerate anything they think is a disadvantage of leaving the EU.

It’s an important issue for the region but it relates to one small corner of the UK. My prefered way of dealing with it would be to cede NI back to the ROI. Absent that I’m sure something can be thrashed out. Not for me to say what as I’m not a political expert, nor an expert in the history of NI/ROI, but it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man for those who experts in these matters to work something out?!

What a pity that, thanks to Theresa May’s political incompetence, we are lumbered with a weak and divided government in coalition with the DUP, so the issue is loomimg far larger than it should.

 

[bramling]

Sorry I missed this before (it sounds like we actually agree on quite a bit, politically, from the rest of your post).

I suppose I see the Irish border issue as a small bump in the road to the wider Brexit process which has been blown out of all proportion. It’s being talked up by remainers who are desperate to exaggerate anything they think is a disadvantage of leaving the EU.

It’s an important issue for the region but it relates to one small corner of the UK. My prefered way of dealing with it would be to cede NI back to the ROI. Absent that I’m sure something can be thrashed out. Not for me to say what as I’m not a political expert, nor an expert in the history of NI/ROI, but it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man for those who experts in these matters to work something out?!

What a pity that, thanks to Theresa May’s political incompetence, we are lumbered with a weak and divided government in coalition with the DUP, so the issue is loomimg far larger than it should.

I was having a lengthy discussion about exactly this with a (strongly remain leaning) friend this afternoon. Interestingly we both concluded that in the long-run it would probably be best for NI to leave the UK in one form or another. And even he agreed that an issue that affects a relatively minuscule number of people (compare the population of NI to that of any major English city to get a sense of proportion) should not be allowed to be a major roadblock.

We also agreed that there is a separate emerging issue in British politics at present, simply that May is lacking in basic competence. The rather depressing, and concerning, thing about this is that she does seem to be the best of the bunch at the moment - and that is a very bad place for Britain to be. Thank goodness Brexit is the only major issue going on at the moment - what would happen if something happened and this government had to handle us potentially going to war, for example? I think most people would probably regard Labour as even more of a liability.

How did we arrive here? Why have the parties seemingly been recruiting or developing second-rate people?

I notice on tv there’s been a noticeable increase in chatter about leadership contests, with both parties mentioned. It’s also no coincidence that we are now coming to the end of the summer political recess period. Perhaps something might be in the offing, although I still reckon on balance both leaders will probably still be here in 6 months. Whatever happens the next 6 or 8 months will certainly be interesting, but my Brexit Day party is still very much in next year’s calendar!

 

[Bromley boy]

I was having a lengthy discussion about exactly this with a (strongly remain leaning) friend this afternoon. Interestingly we both concluded that in the long-run it would probably be best for NI to leave the UK in one form or another. And even he agreed that an issue that affects a relatively minuscule number of people (compare the population of NI to that of any major English city to get a sense of proportion) should not be allowed to be a major roadblock.

I think most sensible people would agree with that view. My (limited) understanding of the good Friday agreement is that reunification is only a referendum away (hopefully when they have theirs they won’t be asked for best of three when it goes the “wrong” way!).

I don’t know about you but most remainers I know are motivated purely by pragmatism - the most staunch remainer I know summed his view up as follows: “I don’t care about anything apart from the economy”. Even he openly admits that he hates the EU.

Fair enough, I understand his position and I can respect it, but I find interesring that I don’t know a single remain voter who likes the EU or has a good thing to say about it....

We also agreed that there is a separate emerging issue in British politics at present, simply that May is lacking in basic competence. The rather depressing, and concerning, thing about this is that she does seem to be the best of the bunch at the moment - and that is a very bad place for Britain to be. Thank goodness Brexit is the only major issue going on at the moment - what would happen if something happened and this government had to handle us potentially going to war, for example? I think most people would probably regard Labour as even more of a liability.

How did we arrive here? Why have the parties seemingly been recruiting or developing second-rate people?

Agreed.

I thought May was decent at first, sadly I was rapidly proved wrong. I think her problems largely mirror those of Gordon Brown: her (undoubted) intellect doesn’t compensate for her fundamental lack of charisma, poor judgement and apparent inability to actually lead. She did a decent job leading government departments - but as the person who needs to head up the whole shebang? Not a chance. Witness the cringeworthy videos of her “dancing” in Cape Town. The less said the better! Cameron (I was never that keen on him either, for the record, but I can see why he was better than May) would never have let himself be put into that position.

I think the public at large has a shorter attention span than ever before and prefers a soundbite to a speach! Witness the rise of Corbyn (and Trump).

I notice on tv there’s been a noticeable increase in chatter about leadership contests, with both parties mentioned. It’s also no coincidence that we are now coming to the end of the summer political recess period. Perhaps something might be in the offing, although I still reckon on balance both leaders will probably still be here in 6 months. Whatever happens the next 6 or 8 months will certainly be interesting, but my Brexit Day party is still very much in next year’s calendar!

Time to join the Tories (if you haven’t already), there’s a fair chance things will unravel in a big way in the autumn and we really need a brexiteer in the top job... Who that should be is a different (and difficult) question!

 

[NSEFAN]

I was having a lengthy discussion about exactly this with a (strongly remain leaning) friend this afternoon. Interestingly we both concluded that in the long-run it would probably be best for NI to leave the UK in one form or another. And even he agreed that an issue that affects a relatively minuscule number of people (compare the population of NI to that of any major English city to get a sense of proportion) should not be allowed to be a major roadblock.

This might happen organically if Sinn Fein get enough of the vote in NI, which in time they may well do if people in NI feel increasingly abandoned by Westminster.

We also agreed that there is a separate emerging issue in British politics at present, simply that May is lacking in basic competence. The rather depressing, and concerning, thing about this is that she does seem to be the best of the bunch at the moment - and that is a very bad place for Britain to be. Thank goodness Brexit is the only major issue going on at the moment - what would happen if something happened and this government had to handle us potentially going to war, for example? I think most people would probably regard Labour as even more of a liability.

Perhaps it's a case of good times creating weak leaders? If Brexit goes badly, those who were in charge of sorting it out will be able to quietly end their political careers (a bit like Cameron) and live fairly comfortably one way or another. Brexit is a real mess but it's self-inflicted and it's not anywhere near as dire as the threat of invasion from a foreign country. If that was to happen I would expect minds to be focussed pretty quickly and petty party politics would go out the window at that point. Such a "keep calm and carry on" approach is what I think some of the older generations wanted to see in Brexit; a difficult situation that would bring out the best of British: everyone stoically pulling together for the good of the nation. In fact it seems to have brought out the worst: political division and time wasting whilst the deadline approaches.

How did we arrive here? Why have the parties seemingly been recruiting or developing second-rate people?

I notice on tv there’s been a noticeable increase in chatter about leadership contests, with both parties mentioned. It’s also no coincidence that we are now coming to the end of the summer political recess period. Perhaps something might be in the offing, although I still reckon on balance both leaders will probably still be here in 6 months. Whatever happens the next 6 or 8 months will certainly be interesting, but my Brexit Day party is still very much in next year’s calendar!

I also wonder this myself and I'm sure it's worth a whole thread of discussion.
In some ways it would be for the best for both the Conservative party to split (centrist vs eurosceptics) and also labour (hard left vs Blairites), because at the moment both sides are riddled with petty in-fighting, as well as continuing to slag each other off. Instead we could have a coalition government. People slag off the libdems but the coalition government they formed with the conservatives was actually half decent, because it created a government that had to get along. If we end up with a bad deal or no deal with the EU it will be mostly the fault of this kind of political division, which is apparently "too hard" to fix.

 

[EM2]

I I find interesring that I don’t know a single remain voter who likes the EU or has a good thing to say about it....

*Waves*
Hello!

 

[433N]

I also know what he means about the strange recurring argument that EU workers are a magic bullet needed to do jobs Brits “don’t want to do.” While ever we have a significant rump of unemployed people in this country surely we should be looking to get them working before we take workers in from abroad to do low skilled entry level jobs!?

I’m fully in favour of immigration where there’s a need due to skills shortages, for example, but I’m not in favour of open door free movement. It has distorted the Labour market and put a lot of pressure on British tradesmen who have to try to live life in the U.K. (with U.K. costs of living) and find themselves competing with Eastern European tradesmen who might live several to a room and send their earnings back home.

To be clear I don’t blame them for doing that as individuals at all - and I’m not saying we should be asking them all to leave! But the system that allows them to do it is a silly one.

I think many leavers and remainers would agree with this. I strongly believe that all training should be free so that we give people fishing rods rather than fish. Depressingly, we have nothing from the Tories on post-Brexit training of the local population - surely this is the only way to curb immigration ... and I also hate the way that when Labour were in power they made university everyone's aspiration so that is now easier to get a horse psychologist than a roofer.

Whilst many people whinge and whine about people coming and taking 'our' jobs, there is somewhere in the world that has paid for the training of skilled people and not seen the benefit. Does it not occur to anyone that they might also need nurses in the Phillipines ? It's hardly very ethical to get less economically-developed countries to pay for the training of the staff we need.

It is the stupid obsession with penny-pinching that has led to this whole Brexit mess. We should train local people for the needs of the local economy. If there is 'too much' immigration, it is solely at the door of successive governments who have failed to address skills shortages.

 

[EM2]

Does it not occur to anyone that they might also need nurses in the Phillipines ? It's hardly very ethical to get less economically-developed countries to pay for the training of the staff we need.

Let's take a look at nursing.
This Government eliminated the training bursary for nurses, so that many people that wanted to enter nursing couldn't afford to.
Then, they capped the amount that Trusts could spend on agency nurses.
So, if fewer people can afford to train to become nurses, and fewer agency nurses can be employed to cover the vacancies created, who does the nursing?

 

[bramling]

I think many leavers and remainers would agree with this. I strongly believe that all training should be free so that we give people fishing rods rather than fish. Depressingly, we have nothing from the Tories on post-Brexit training of the local population - surely this is the only way to curb immigration ... and I also hate the way that when Labour were in power they made university everyone's aspiration so that is now easier to get a horse psychologist than a roofer.

Whilst many people whinge and whine about people coming and taking 'our' jobs, there is somewhere in the world that has paid for the training of skilled people and not seen the benefit. Does it not occur to anyone that they might also need nurses in the Phillipines ? It's hardly very ethical to get less economically-developed countries to pay for the training of the staff we need.

It is the stupid obsession with penny-pinching that has led to this whole Brexit mess. We should train local people for the needs of the local economy. If there is 'too much' immigration, it is solely at the door of successive governments who have failed to address skills shortages.

This is a very well-made point. People are sick of immigration being used as a quick “solution” to the issue, completely ignoring all the associated costs which go with it - one of which is the stealing of skills from the immigrant’s home country. There are other costs in the form of housing, infrastructure, public services and social cohesion which never seem to be even considered.

Being cynical I wouldn’t be surprised if Blair favoured high low-skilled immigration on the basis that it would likely be a source of Labour votes - if so this seems to have worked in London.

 

[furnessvale]

I can’t really comment on whether these washes might be outfits for something else, although it wouldn’t surprise me at all. I can’t see how the contribute much in tax revenue though. Round my way they don’t seem to get much patronage, although the ones I see in north London always seem busy.

Money laundering? Any service in which the value added is mainly labour is worth looking at.

City centres are full of nail bars where the girls spend most of the day sitting around polishing their own nails. However, an examination of the books will show they never stopped working and were run off their feet.

Yes, the owner will have to pay appropriate taxes etc on the made up profits, but if the operation has turned dirty drugs money into clean, but taxed, business profits, it is worth it.

 

[birchesgreen]

Whilst many people whinge and whine about people coming and taking 'our' jobs, there is somewhere in the world that has paid for the training of skilled people and not seen the benefit. Does it not occur to anyone that they might also need nurses in the Phillipines ? It's hardly very ethical to get less economically-developed countries to pay for the training of the staff we need.

Yes though with the example of the Philippines the remittances sent home form a vital part of their economy now, my niece for example works as a nurse in S'pore and the money she sends home is helping her younger brother in his own medical education. Therefore you can say in rich countries we are paying for the training of staff in less economically developed countries. Without the flow of qualified staff abroad and the money they send home its unlikely many could afford to train there. As with many things it is a complicated situation with no easy answers.