EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bromley boy]

I'll try again, not that I expect an answer.
Would you rather have the UK with a booming economy and paying into the EU (notwithtanding getting some back), or the UK a failing economy where the EU sends us money to prop us up?

It’s a bit of a silly question, with all due respect (as I’m sure you’re well aware) .

At the moment we have a failing economy and are still paying into the EU!

Why would the EU be sending us money to prop us up, in any case?

According to the bar chart here, https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
the only year that we got back slightly more than we contributed was 1975.

Thanks - how refreshing to get a nice straightforward answer with data!

Rather as I suspected, we have consistently been a net contributor throughout our membership. We are one of the EU’s “cash cows”.

 

[furnessvale]

I'll try again, not that I expect an answer.
Would you rather have the UK with a booming economy and paying into the EU (notwithtanding getting some back), or the UK a failing economy where the EU sends us money to prop us up?

I prefer the option you have missed, a booming UK economy NOT paying into the EU.

 

[northwichcat]

The final figures may not have been available at the time of the referendum in 1975 but I am sure the "spades in the ground" and attendant publicity was in full swing!

If you're sure then you'll have some evidence. From the information posted online I can't see any indication that either side were using the amount of money we do or don't send to Europe as one of their headline claims, unlike the 2016 referendum.

 

[AlterEgo]

Rather as I suspected, we have consistently been a net contributor throughout our membership. We are one of the EU’s “cash cows”.

Not just a net contributor but a very significant net contributor which pays in far far more than it could ever hope to get back. The EU now comprises quite a few smaller countries and nations which have much less developed economies, so it's not clear why the UK should be paying to prop those countries up.

 

[Howardh]

I prefer the option you have missed, a booming UK economy NOT paying into the EU.

Unfortunately that won't happen, plus we will be paying that £35+bn into the EU for some considerable time.

 

[Howardh]

Not just a net contributor but a very significant net contributor which pays in far far more than it could ever hope to get back. The EU now comprises quite a few smaller countries and nations which have much less developed economies, so it's not clear why the UK should be paying to prop those countries up.

I actually agree with that, but if we were to be consistent then we shouldn't be propping up non-EU countries under "foreign aid" which - correct me if I'm wrong - is more than £13bn/year which if divided by 52 is £250/week - does "let's spend that on the NHS instead" ring a bell? And we get some of our EU payments back.
And the budget for arts and farts (aka "culture") is even more, around double the EU budget, if people want the opera and galleries let them pay for it and we could spend the saving on, oh, let me think.....

Anyhow, if we wish to scrap sending money to the EU, should we scrap the foreign aid budget, and if not, why?

As for "booming economy" will someone please, please tell me what we can export to the rest of the world that they can's source from elsewhere cheaper or make it themselves?? I've been asking for weeks. If there's no answer, how can our economy "boom" when we can't sell anything?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Once again, I need to repeat myself.

The proposals DC made of the EU in 2016 were precisely nothing to do with the existing limits on free movement as enshrined in the relevant EU legislation.

I’ve even referenced the relevant flaming EU regulation above, if you’d care to read it, and contrast with what DC was asking for in 2016 (his proposals ranged across many areas of EU law, not just free movement). I’m honestly at a loss as to what more I can do.

None of his demands were things we could have achieved via existing EU law strictures, as I have repeatedly pointed out above.

It wasn’t intended to be supercilious, it was simply intended to be factually correct.

DC was looking to restrict unemployment benefit payments to migrants.

Proper recording of the entry dates of migrants would allow them to be denied benefit and removed if/when they claimed.

Please tell me how that would not meet the goal?

 

[EM2]

At the moment we have a failing economy and are still paying into the EU!

When this country is the only major industrial nation in Europe that suffered wage contraction during economic expansion, why do you say it's the fault of the EU?

 

[NSEFAN]

When this country is the only major industrial nation in Europe that suffered wage contraction during economic expansion, why do you say it's the fault of the EU?

Perhaps it's the implication that the EU are bleeding us dry, and that money would somehow trickle down to the workers were it not for the EU taking it?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Traipsing through the lobbies, instead of an at seat push button, gives "honourable" members the opportunity to retire to the bar for a swift (or not so swift) drink. They are hardly likely to change that!

Really? The division bell summons members for a vote; I don't how this affords any additional opportunity to for a "swift drink". I find your comment very poor, even if you hold our MPs in low regard.

I do agree that we should remove the archaic division voting procedure and replace it with a dedicated voting device, bio-secured and geo-restricted to the chamber of the house.

 

[northwichcat]

DC was looking to restrict unemployment benefit payments to migrants.

Proper recording of the entry dates of migrants would allow them to be denied benefit and removed if/when they claimed.

Please tell me how that would not meet the goal?

He wasn't just looking at it, he got the EU to accept a reform. The only problem is the reforms were on condition that we remained, so if we had voted to remain the reforms would now be in place but as we voted to leave things remain as they are - possibly until 2021.

 

[northwichcat]

DUP MP Ian Paisley Jr has been suspended from the House of Commons for 30 days starting in September. Interesting that his suspension doesn't prevent him from voting in crucial votes on Brexit in the lead up to the summer recess.

 

[SWTCommuter]

If you're sure then you'll have some evidence. From the information posted online I can't see any indication that either side were using the amount of money we do or don't send to Europe as one of their headline claims, unlike the 2016 referendum.

Here's a link to the text of the Government leaflet that was distributed to every household in the 1975 campaign. http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm#front

Scroll down to page 14: 'If we say yes'. The sums we can expect to receive from various EC funds are listed but no mention is made of our contribution.

See also pages 8 and 9.

Under the previous terms, Britain's contribution to the Common Market budget imposed too heavy a burden on us. The new terms ensure that Britain will pay a fairer share. We now stand, under the Dublin agreement, to get back from Market funds up to £125 million a year.

 

[AlterEgo]

Really? The division bell summons members for a vote; I don't how this affords any additional opportunity to for a "swift drink". I find your comment very poor, even if you hold our MPs in low regard.

I do agree that we should remove the archaic division voting procedure and replace it with a dedicated voting device, bio-secured and geo-restricted to the chamber of the house.

There are division bells in about a half dozen pubs within the vicinity of the House. I worked in the area for a couple of years and frequently saw MPs in the pub while the House was sitting.

 

[Howardh]

There are division bells in about a half dozen pubs within the vicinity of the House. I worked in the area for a couple of years and frequently saw MPs in the pub while the House was sitting.

Yes, I do believe that's true - is it still the case or would they more likely be texted now??

 

[radamfi]

When discussing the "cost" of EU membership, does anyone consider the extra economic activity and therefore extra tax revenue generated?

As for "booming economy" will someone please, please tell me what we can export to the rest of the world that they can's source from elsewhere cheaper or make it themselves?? I've been asking for weeks. If there's no answer, how can our economy "boom" when we can't sell anything?

We don't really sell that much physical "stuff" that other countries want, but we sell our advice and technical knowhow. It is common for people in various countries to be working on projects together. Modern technology such as sharing screens through Skype for Business means that people in different offices can work together regardless of geography.

 

[nlogax]

Yes, I do believe that's true - is it still the case or would they more likely be texted now??

There's still one in St Stephen's Tavern..I believe it actually works!

 

[Bromley boy]

And the budget for arts and farts (aka "culture") is even more, around double the EU budget, if people want the opera and galleries let them pay for it and we could spend the saving on, oh, let me think.....

Anyhow, if we wish to scrap sending money to the EU, should we scrap the foreign aid budget, and if not, why?

Disagree on the arts side of things - that’s important for the furtherment/intellectual development of the country’s population.

International aid should be massively reduced and reformed - as we all know much of it ends up in the hands of corrupt officials, and we give aid to countries whose citizens live in third world conditions while their governments blow money on vanity projects like space programmes and similar.

Madness.

 

[northwichcat]

International aid should be massively reduced and reformed - as we all know much of it ends up in the hands of corrupt officials, and we give aid to countries whose citizens live in third world conditions while their governments blow money on vanity projects like space programmes and similar.

While the deprived areas of the UK aren't third world, you could say HS2 falls in to that category.

Not sure if it's India you're thinking of. If it is they are least partnering with Japan now, to the benefit of both countries.

 

[Puffing Devil]

There are division bells in about a half dozen pubs within the vicinity of the House. I worked in the area for a couple of years and frequently saw MPs in the pub while the House was sitting.

I took the comment from furnessvale to mean that the MPs could sneak off for a swifty post division. Not that they would be imbibing before, which of course they can.

 

[EM2]

International aid should be massively reduced and reformed - as we all know much of it ends up in the hands of corrupt officials, and we give aid to countries whose citizens live in third world conditions while their governments blow money on vanity projects like space programmes and similar.

Some aid is designed for those kinds of projects though, known as developmental aid.

 

[Howardh]

When discussing the "cost" of EU membership, does anyone consider the extra economic activity and therefore extra tax revenue generated?
We don't really sell that much physical "stuff" that other countries want, but we sell our advice and technical knowhow. It is common for people in various countries to be working on projects together. Modern technology such as sharing screens through Skype for Business means that people in different offices can work together regardless of geography.

I understand that fully, but in the case of tech and globalisation - where are they based, where do they pay their taxes, how many cans of worms are there? Meaning, for example, if you want an insurance company or an internet streaming site to be based in London, and not Frankfurt, lower their business rates, lower their tax threshold. Simple.
So who plays the balance?
This is my point, Brexit may well lead to lower taxation (a tax haven) - but that lowers the amount going to the treasury for education, health, welfare, defence etc. So makes up the difference? Now, let me guess....

 

[Howardh]

There's still one in St Stephen's Tavern..I believe it actually works!

*Notes for my next trip to London* although that would be during the summer recess, certainly don't want to have a pint surrounded by neerdowells like them!

 

[Jonny]

This is my point, Brexit may well lead to lower taxation (a tax haven) - but that lowers the amount going to the treasury for education, health, welfare, defence etc. So makes up the difference? Now, let me guess....

The idea is that taxable activity increases to a greater proportion (the Laffer curve, named for Arthur Laffer who discovered it). UK Corporation tax shows such behaviour, in that reductions in rate drive increases in taxable activity, resulting in increases in total revenue.

Whether it is achieved by abstracting such activity from the EU27 is another matter, but it is known to work (edit: for the UK). If it works for the UK, the UK should do it.

 

[nidave]

The idea is that taxable activity increases to a greater proportion (the Laffer curve, named for Arthur Laffer who discovered it). UK Corporation tax shows such behaviour, in that reductions in rate drive increases in taxable activity, resulting in increases in total revenue.

Whether it is achieved by abstracting such activity from the EU27 is another matter, but it is known to work (edit: for the UK). If it works for the UK, the UK should do it.

I am pretty sure a number of US States have reduced Corporation tax and found this to be untrue. the money coming in is massively reduced leading to huge spending cuts and lower tax receipts. Searching for the sources now.

Edit: Pretty sure its Iowa
"The state also borrowed $141 million from emergency funds last year."
https://eu.press-citizen.com/story/...avent-agreed-state-budget-tax-cuts/497276002/

 

[telstarbox]

UKIP picking up in the polls is bad news for the Tories. Their voters are thinly spread so there probably isn't a single seat they can win even with 10-12% of support, but they would split the Tories' vote in enough constituencies that they wouldn't be able to govern even with the DUP.

 

[EM2]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chief-whip-julian-smith-told-mps-to-defy-pairing-deals-r5rv59fm3

Julian Smith, the chief whip, urged three Tory MPs to abandon “pairing” arrangements before a knife-edge vote on Tuesday, it has been claimed.

Pairing is a parliamentary convention by which pairs of MPs on different sides of the Commons agree not to vote so that an absence such as maternity leave does not count against a member.

Mr Smith summoned Brandon Lewis, the Tory chairman, from a meeting to parliament as a crunch vote on customs approached, witnesses claim.

The chief whip is understood to have told Mr Lewis that the later votes were going to be close and he needed him to vote. This breached the pairing deal with Jo Swinson, the Liberal Democrat MP who is on maternity leave.

The rest of the article is paywalled.

 

[nlogax]

That seems to completely contradict Lewis' assertion that his vote was a 'mistake'.

 

[northwichcat]

That seems to completely contradict Lewis' assertion that his vote was a 'mistake'.

No surprise there. Remember the claim that George Osborne tried to get a free upgrade from standard class to first class on a train? A journalist claimed Osborne's aid was trying to blag a free upgrade to first class and the train manager wasn't having any of it and posted her account on Twitter. At first his aid claimed on Twitter Osborne asked him to buy a first class ticket but he 'pressed the wrong button.' Then when people started pointing MPs aren't supposed to travel first class unless they pay the difference out of their own pockets, the tweet from his aid got deleted and Osborne claimed he had a seat reservation at a table bay in standard on a later train but his meeting finished early so he chose to travel back early but on finding no table seats in standard he sat in first and sent his aid to find the train manager.

 

[nlogax]

This entire process feels like a never-ending episode of The Thick Of It except with a far less believable plot.