EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[northwichcat]

Lib Dem MP Jo Swinson, who is on maternity leave, has called foul over the Conservatives not honouring the 'pairing system' whereby a nominated MP from the government shouldn't have voted to balance things out. Brandon Lewis was the nominated MP who voted, later claiming he forgot.

 

[Howardh]

Lib Dem MP Jo Swinson, who is on maternity leave, has called foul over the Conservatives not honouring the 'pairing system' whereby a nominated MP from the government shouldn't have voted to balance things out. Brandon Lewis was the nominated MP who voted, later claiming he forgot.

I find it strange these days why they have such an antiquated voting system. Surely there should be some on-line voting system so this doubling-up can be avoided?

 

[Domh245]

I find it strange these days why they have such an antiquated voting system. Surely there should be some on-line voting system so this doubling-up can be avoided?

They were pressing for this to be debated and implemented within the past few weeks, although nothing has come of it as yet.

 

[bramling]

Brexit is chasing all the "rats" round the yard, chasing them out, blocking all the ways in....except leaving one wide, wide open (the Irish Border). So there will be zero saving in chasing down illegal immigrants - except that you are actually adding to the numbers that need chasing on top of the r/o/worlds already.
If someone was - after Brexit - as desperate to come here as they are now, then that Irish route will be wide, wide open, as long as they are EU citizens and legally entitled to be in the Republic.
Even if the job of finding and reporting them is given to the employers and landlords, there will still be substantial cost in getting them, examining the case and then if they appeal the courts, then the appeals, and finally getting rid.
And next month back they come via Ireland....

Again, who has created the Irish border situation? If there was no EU involvement in the ROI then it’s feasible some kind of solution would have been fairly straightforward. Would we even have the problem in the first place?

At the end of the day, Northern Ireland and the ROI are two separate countries, no matter what the historic ties may be between them, I suspect increasing numbers of people elsewhere in the U.K. find it increasingly exasperating that a hard border is so symbolically unacceptable. In the same way that many simply turn off the news when the latest Irish contretemps happens.

 

[furnessvale]

I find it strange these days why they have such an antiquated voting system. Surely there should be some on-line voting system so this doubling-up can be avoided?

Traipsing through the lobbies, instead of an at seat push button, gives "honourable" members the opportunity to retire to the bar for a swift (or not so swift) drink. They are hardly likely to change that!

 

[AlterEgo]

Again, who has created the Irish border situation? If there was no EU involvement in the ROI then it’s feasible some kind of solution would have been fairly straightforward. Would we even have the problem in the first place?

At the end of the day, Northern Ireland and the ROI are two separate countries, no matter what the historic ties may be between them, I suspect increasing numbers of people elsewhere in the U.K. find it increasingly exasperating that a hard border is so symbolically unacceptable. In the same way that many simply turn off the news when the latest Irish contretemps happens.

People in Britain who don’t understand the Irish border situation are simply ignorant. There are lots of history books in the library.

Most Brexiteers should find the themes of national integrity, cultural protection, and sovereignty relevant.

The Irish border situation was created largely by Britain.

 

[bramling]

People in Britain who don’t understand the Irish border situation are simply ignorant. There are lots of history books in the library.

Most Brexiteers should find the themes of national integrity, cultural protection, and sovereignty relevant.

The Irish border situation was created largely by Britain.

I don’t think many people on the mainland care that much about Irish politics full-stop, especially since the 1990s when its issues generally haven’t spilled over here.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t think many people on the mainland care that much about Irish politics full-stop, especially since the 1990s when its issues generally haven’t spilled over here.

Of course they don’t, however Irish politics are significantly affecting the destiny of the United Kingdom, so I’d suggest the ignorance is damaging.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm struggling here as I did answer the points raised and related it to two of the demands documented for us by the BBC. The fact is that the UK chose, and continues not to, track migrants entering the UK from the EU. Had that been in place the access to benefits could easily be prevented by the removal of the person should that fail to gain employment. EU migrants are only permitted if they are not a burden on the state.

Once again, I need to repeat myself.

The proposals DC made of the EU in 2016 were precisely nothing to do with the existing limits on free movement as enshrined in the relevant EU legislation.

I’ve even referenced the relevant flaming EU regulation above, if you’d care to read it, and contrast with what DC was asking for in 2016 (his proposals ranged across many areas of EU law, not just free movement). I’m honestly at a loss as to what more I can do.

None of his demands were things we could have achieved via existing EU law strictures, as I have repeatedly pointed out above.

Answering your own "question" in a supercilious manner does not improve the debate.

It wasn’t intended to be supercilious, it was simply intended to be factually correct.

 

[bramling]

Of course they don’t, however Irish politics are significantly affecting the destiny of the United Kingdom, so I’d suggest the ignorance is damaging.

Most people will, quite reasonably, see it as a disproportionate amount of fuss for a part of the U.K. with a population about the same size as the county of Essex.

 

[AlterEgo]

Most people will, quite reasonably, see it as a disproportionate amount of fuss for a part of the U.K. with a population about the same size as the county of Essex.

It certainly is reasonable when you are coming from a standpoint of ignorance.

Most of Britain lives in blissful ignorance about Ireland, north and south.

 

[bramling]

It certainly is reasonable when you are coming from a standpoint of ignorance.

Most of Britain lives in blissful ignorance about Ireland, north and south.

And why should they be different? Someone whose formative years were in the 80s or early 90s could quite understandably have come to the conclusion that Ireland has been the source of nothing but trouble. Personally I have much more respect for Scottish politics which hasn’t been characterised by decades of violence.

 

[AlterEgo]

And why should they be different? Someone whose formative years were in the 80s or early 90s could quite understandably have come to the conclusion that Ireland has been the source of nothing but trouble.

But they would of course be wrong. In fact I’d question the mental faculties of any adult who thought Ireland was just bombs and shooting and wasn’t much good for anything else.

 

[Bromley boy]

It certainly is reasonable when you are coming from a standpoint of ignorance.

Most of Britain lives in blissful ignorance about Ireland, north and south.

And why should they be different? Someone whose formative years were in the 80s or early 90s could quite understandably have come to the conclusion that Ireland has been the source of nothing but trouble. Personally I have much more respect for Scottish politics which hasn’t been characterised by decades of violence.

#getspopcornout

 

[AlterEgo]

Personally I have much more respect for Scottish politics which hasn’t been characterised by decades of violence.

“Decades” of violence in Irish politics? I really think you need a history book. Or even Wikipedia would do.

 

[bramling]

“Decades” of violence in Irish politics? I really think you need a history book. Or even Wikipedia would do.

So 1960s, 70s, 80s and 90s isn’t decades?

I should add that I’m not saying it’s right that many on the mainland have this view, however in my view it’s understandable. When one considers stuff from the past like two sides squabbling over which road a parade goes down, it’s easy to see why people find the border issue frustrating. Especially hearing it suggested that a hard border is likely to lead to violence, a view I find hard to respect as a reason why we shouldn’t have a particular form of Brexit.

 

[AlterEgo]

So 1960s, 70s, 80s and 90s isn’t decades?

Yes, those are decades, but Irish politics has been heavily influenced by violence for many hundreds of years.

 

[northwichcat]

A link to a 25 page document isn’t an answer to my question and I’m certainly not going to answer it for you.

You’ve told me there is as at least one year where the U.K. received more than it paid to the EU.

A pithy statement of which year, + quote and link to the relevant paragraph of text is all that’s required, if you please?!

It's a table of financial information which takes up an entire page of A4. There isn't a paragraph to copy and paste. Remember it was you who asked the question on here when you could have typed it in to Google and found exactly the same document. I'm not here to spoon feed you. It's quite frankly rude that I've helped you and you complain that I've helped you.

 

[Howardh]

Traipsing through the lobbies, instead of an at seat push button, gives "honourable" members the opportunity to retire to the bar for a swift (or not so swift) drink. They are hardly likely to change that!

I suppose they could be drinking at the Brown Bull in hartlepool when they press their vote button - however the downside is they would have to pay the same price for their beer as us commoners. How DO they get away with that??

 

[Howardh]

So 1960s, 70s, 80s and 90s isn’t decades?

I should add that I’m not saying it’s right that many on the mainland have this view, however in my view it’s understandable. When one considers stuff from the past like two sides squabbling over which road a parade goes down, it’s easy to see why people find the border issue frustrating. Especially hearing it suggested that a hard border is likely to lead to violence, a view I find hard to respect as a reason why we shouldn’t have a particular form of Brexit.

If there WAS a hard border - and I not think it's enshrined in law that there can't be (anyone??) - not just the violence but there are geographical logistical problems. For example, the virtual exclave where the residents within could require (as a worst-case no-deal senario) documents just to leave their house whereas today they can simply walk across the border to shop, go to school, the doctors and work.
If the live in the Republic and work in Northern Ireland, would they need a work visa or permit? Could they be refused if the "quota" system is over subscribed?
None of this is even a conversation just now, it would be ridiculous. However we live in ridiculous times where it's "heads down for Brexit and damn the concequences" which is rather selfish.

 

[Howardh]

“Decades” of violence in Irish politics? I really think you need a history book. Or even Wikipedia would do.

16 June 1996 the IRA blew up my local. The Metro Bar near Victoria Station in Manchester just opposite where the lorry was parked. 12 hours later me and my bud would have been sat there playing chess....

They never re-built it either

 

[northwichcat]

I find it strange these days why they have such an antiquated voting system. Surely there should be some on-line voting system so this doubling-up can be avoided?

I suppose one problem with online voting is making it available for all might mean some MPs don't bother to attend parliament. I've wondered before whether electoral candidates should have a running mate whose name appears on the ballot paper and if they get elected their running mate works for them, which can include attending parliament if the MP can't due to illness, childbirth etc.

 

[nidave]

Again, who has created the Irish border situation? If there was no EU involvement in the ROI then it’s feasible some kind of solution would have been fairly straightforward. Would we even have the problem in the first place?

At the end of the day, Northern Ireland and the ROI are two separate countries, no matter what the historic ties may be between them, I suspect increasing numbers of people elsewhere in the U.K. find it increasingly exasperating that a hard border is so symbolically unacceptable. In the same way that many simply turn off the news when the latest Irish contretemps happens.

You do relise its not just the people in the ROI that dont want an irish border - its a lot of the people in the north, it will be devistating to communities on the border of both sides if this happens. Smuggling will become rife (again) and how are you going to stop people coming into the UK via NI?

 

[AlterEgo]

16 June 1996 the IRA blew up my local. The Metro Bar near Victoria Station in Manchester just opposite where the lorry was parked. 12 hours later me and my bud would have been sat there playing chess....

They never re-built it either

Yes, the latest in 800 years or more of violent conflict over the possession, sovereignty or constitutional status of Ireland.

A low level conflict still occurs but rarely makes the headlines on this side of the water.

 

[SWTCommuter]

If there’s definitely one year, could you please tell us which year it was, and cite a source?

According to the bar chart here, https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
the only year that we got back slightly more than we contributed was 1975.

 

[northwichcat]

Again, who has created the Irish border situation? If there was no EU involvement in the ROI then it’s feasible some kind of solution would have been fairly straightforward. Would we even have the problem in the first place?

At the end of the day, Northern Ireland and the ROI are two separate countries, no matter what the historic ties may be between them, I suspect increasing numbers of people elsewhere in the U.K. find it increasingly exasperating that a hard border is so symbolically unacceptable. In the same way that many simply turn off the news when the latest Irish contretemps happens.

Who created the problem? Well it's partly thanks to our own MEPs that the EU introduced tougher border checks between EU and non-EU countries last year and 51.8% of the British people voted to leave in the knowledge that the EU had toughened it's borders and leaving would create a new EU border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland as the ROI had no plans to leave the EU. They also knew that the existing soft border was of benefit to those in Northern Ireland (United Kingdom residents.) Well maybe many of those who voted Leave weren't aware of that but if they weren't then they didn't understand the full impact of leaving.

 

[furnessvale]

According to the bar chart here, https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
the only year that we got back slightly more than we contributed was 1975.

The year we were conned into voting to stay in!

What a co-incidence!

 

[Howardh]

The year we were conned into voting to stay in!

What a co-incidence!

I'll try again, not that I expect an answer.
Would you rather have the UK with a booming economy and paying into the EU (notwithtanding getting some back), or the UK a failing economy where the EU sends us money to prop us up?

 

[northwichcat]

The year we were conned into voting to stay in!

What a co-incidence!

Nice idea but the figures for that year wouldn't have been available until the after the vote. By your same logic the 2015 net contribution (the most recent figure available at the time of the 2016 referendum) is significantly higher than the 2016 net contribution, so we were conned in to leaving by an exceptionally high contribution in 2015.

 

[furnessvale]

Nice idea but the figures for that year wouldn't have been available until the after the vote. By your same logic the 2015 net contribution (the most recent figure available at the time of the 2016 referendum) is significantly higher than the 2016 net contribution, so we were conned in to leaving by an exceptionally high contribution in 2015.

The final figures may not have been available at the time of the referendum in 1975 but I am sure the "spades in the ground" and attendant publicity was in full swing!