EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does no one value, even a little bit, the rights you will lose if a hard brexit happens? I've never seen this discussed at all and explaining it to a British person is like explaining quantum physics to squirrel - you can try but you won't find any sign on their little faces that they understand.

Would the political understanding of a great number of those who cast their vote in the referendum also be similar to that of the squirrel to whom quantum physics was being explained?

I will never forget a local television news programme that featured a middle-aged woman, when asked by a similar aged woman why she had a view on how to vote in the referendum, beginning her explanation with...."Well, Gladys in the hairdressers thinks..."

Is it not part of a well known prayer..."Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil?"

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes I understand that currently I have a right to live and work in other EU countries the same as their people have the right to live and work here. I was just pointing out that if both side lose that right there is no discrimination or second class people as all are being treated equally.

You are correct that in that scenario, British and European citizens would have roughly reciprocal rights, so it would be hard to argue that that is discrimination.

Where you could argue that there would be discrimination is against people (both British and European) who have family or partners on the other side of the new boundary - who will then suddenly find that it becomes much harder to see their girlfriend/boyfriend/parents/children/etc. than it had been before Brexit. The British immigration system in particular is exceptionally severe (relatively high costs for visas, often very onerous documentation requirements, and a strong tendency to reject visa applications for spurious reasons without any right of appeal) - often making it much harder for people to see their families than you'd think just by looking at the rules. I would argue that would amount to discrimination against people who have foreign partners or family. (Though of course, that's already suffered by people with partners from outside the EU).

 

[Trog]

If people from all countries are subject to the same rules, and as their home countries can like the UK apply what ever rules they see fit to UK citizens wanting to go the other way I don't see that there is any discrimination. Buggeration maybe but not discrimination.

 

[yorksrob]

Would the political understanding of a great number of those who cast their vote in the referendum also be similar to that of the squirrel to whom quantum physics was being explained?

I will never forget a local television news programme that featured a middle-aged woman, when asked by a similar aged woman why she had a view on how to vote in the referendum, beginning her explanation with...."Well, Gladys in the hairdressers thinks..."

Is it not part of a well known prayer..."Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil?"

It's largely a matter for individual member states. There won't be a single European negotiating stance, but 27 separate stances which may or may not be aligned to some degree.

What completely astonishes me, and gives the impression that all British people, remainers and leavers, are morons, is the complete lack of interest in what comes next. Does no one care about the difference between a soft and a hard brexit? Does no one value, even a little bit, the rights you will lose if a hard brexit happens? I've never seen this discussed at all and explaining it to a British person is like explaining quantum physics to squirrel - you can try but you won't find any sign on their little faces that they understand.

Just look at the reaction to events this week. Europe is surely better off without us.

The EU is assembling a team to negotiate it's side of Brexit, so it will have to forge the remaining members various aligning viewpoints into one negotiating stance one way or another. How much oversight of the process it's people will have remains to be seen.

With regards to hard or soft Brexit, the right to work elsewhere is a niche interest since the majority of people don't up sticks elsewhere and neither are they likely to. For most people it will boil down to jobs, wages, prices, public services and immigration etc and how they think these various issues will be affected. Inflation may well decide the issue for some.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

PS People who voted for Brexit are racist xenophobic idiots.

On what basis do you make this statement?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Well as all leavers are stupid, xenophobic, racist, scum you might as well add they're a Nazi as well.

I have to say that it amuses me greatly that the only contributions by ardent leavers on this forum since the judgment have been you (and others) trying to make victims out of yourself by claiming that everyone's calling 17m people racist. As I said above, it's totally irrelevant and shows the complete dearth of arguments you actually have.

It's also almost like all these claims about "Generation Snowflake" etc. are psychological projection...
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You should have said it then.

He did. Hence why he specified "uneducated working class. I disagree with his sentiment, but your interpretation is completely unfair.

 

[AM9]

Out of interest, does anybody know whether the European parliament will be having a vote on the European negotiating stance, or has there been any such clamour for it to have such a role ?

There probably hasn't been any serious pressure from EU nation electorates for any position because they regard the existing rules re the four basic freedoms of the single market as a start and end position. At some point in the future, the EU administration will need unanimous approval of whatever the effect of negotiations is, ( i.e. ranging from the UK having a 'Norway' status to no single market rights at all), and that is where the 27 member states may each have a different view. Wallonia or some other regions/nations could easily do a repeat of the Canada hiccup although a UK agreement could well have a more hostile reception from some countries given our antagonistic attitudes to the EU over the years.
That's why all this waffle about "the EU (or any carefully selected member state like Germany) needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU" is totally irrelevant to negotiations. If any member state fails to fully accept any new deal, then by definition, the whole thing will stall. Just another example of how voters were deceived by claims that negotiations will be easy and fruitful (to the UK of course)!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If it is a widely held view that the majority of the population are too stupid to know how to vote, perhaps it would be better if we did away with democracy. Instead a small number of 'educated' people could make all those tricky big decisions on behalf of everyone without the rest of us having to bother our pretty little heads with big complicated thoughts. We only get the answer wrong anyway so we should be ignored whatever we say when actually asked.

Oh, but what if the small 'educated' group themselves have differing views? Narrow it down further until a single person has all the decision making powers?

 

[meridian2]

If it is a widely held view that the majority of the population are too stupid to know how to vote, perhaps it would be better if we did away with democracy. Instead a small number of 'educated' people could make all those tricky big decisions on behalf of everyone without the rest of us having to bother our pretty little heads with big complicated thoughts. We only get the answer wrong anyway so we should be ignored whatever we say when actually asked.

Oh, but what if the small 'educated' group themselves have differing views? Narrow it down further until a single person has all the decision making powers?

That's the short definition of communism right there.

 

[Phil.]

If it is a widely held view that the majority of the population are too stupid to know how to vote, perhaps it would be better if we did away with democracy. Instead a small number of 'educated' people could make all those tricky big decisions on behalf of everyone without the rest of us having to bother our pretty little heads with big complicated thoughts. We only get the answer wrong anyway so we should be ignored whatever we say when actually asked.

Oh, but what if the small 'educated' group themselves have differing views? Narrow it down further until a single person has all the decision making powers?

Now you're describing Islington style socialism. You work and educate your children at state schools whilst we rule and decide what's good for you and send our children to public schools.

 

[TheKnightWho]

If it is a widely held view that the majority of the population are too stupid to know how to vote, perhaps it would be better if we did away with democracy. Instead a small number of 'educated' people could make all those tricky big decisions on behalf of everyone without the rest of us having to bother our pretty little heads with big complicated thoughts. We only get the answer wrong anyway so we should be ignored whatever we say when actually asked.

Oh, but what if the small 'educated' group themselves have differing views? Narrow it down further until a single person has all the decision making powers?

Where has this come from? Is this in objection to the Rule of Law being applied in the High Court ruling, or is this just general self-victimisation?

And nobody thinks people are too stupid to vote, but if the country voted to commit an atrocity or to commit economic suicide by banning all trade then it wouldn't be a good decision just because a majority voted for it. This is the same argument as "it's just my opinion" on a bigger scale - you're entitled to have an opinion, but that doesn't make it right, free you from accountability or mean that it can't be scrutinised.

This country isn't a direct democracy, and we have institutions like the courts and parliament to ensure that the general will of the people is implemented in a way that benefits the country. We can't expect everyone to know about every aspect of politics or how to run a country, and blindly letting majorities steer the ship in whatever way they feel doesn't necessarily mean the country is going to prosper. It also has none of the checks and balances that a true democracy has, such as the needs of minorities, democratic discourse, the Rule of Law, accountability and scrutiny. What papers like the Daily Express and Daily Mail are advocating for is mob rule - not a true democracy.

 

[dosxuk]

If it is a widely held view that the majority of the population are too stupid to know how to vote, perhaps it would be better if we did away with democracy. Instead a small number of 'educated' people could make all those tricky big decisions on behalf of everyone without the rest of us having to bother our pretty little heads with big complicated thoughts. We only get the answer wrong anyway so we should be ignored whatever we say when actually asked.

Oh, but what if the small 'educated' group themselves have differing views? Narrow it down further until a single person has all the decision making powers?

How about we call this group of special people "politicians", we could even have a vote every now and again open to everyone to make sure they generally follow the will of the people. This group could spend all their time debating and researching the decisions that need to be made to benefit the whole country, not just Dave at the motor plant, our Gladys at the hairdressers, but everyone.

But then we'd hit a problem if a controversial decision had to be made, and even if those "politicians" decided that to do one course of action is best, a few shouty people make the alternative seem better for Dave and Gladys, so lets take away the decision making from those "politicians" and give it to one person instead, lets call them "May". That person can then enact any decision they like, regardless of any public support, or lack of, for those decisions.

Would you be happy then?

 

[Howardh]

I've heard it suggested we should give wimmin the vote. Whatever next??

 

[miami]

If it is a widely held view that the majority of the population are too stupid to know how to vote, perhaps it would be better if we did away with democracy. Instead a small number of 'educated' people could make all those tricky big decisions on behalf of everyone without the rest of us having to bother our pretty little heads with big complicated thoughts. We only get the answer wrong anyway so we should be ignored whatever we say when actually asked.

Oh, but what if the small 'educated' group themselves have differing views? Narrow it down further until a single person has all the decision making powers?

The UK has never really had a culture of direct democracy, we accept that the decisions are too complex for us to fully appreciate in our spare time. That's why we employ people to make such decisions on our behalf. Even then the details tend to be far too detailed for an mp to be an expert in all of them, hence committees and the civil service advise.

If a patient demands a treatment from a doctor, but the doctor knows it's wrong, the doctor will not perform that treatment despite the wishes of the patient.

Direct democracy, or "mob rule", is one of the lost dangerous forces on the planet at the best of times. That's why we have checks and balances and law. When the mob is controlled by a small cabal of foreign or tax avoiding businessmen like murdoch, rothermere, desmond and the barclay brothers.

 

[anme]

The EU is assembling a team to negotiate it's side of Brexit, so it will have to forge the remaining members various aligning viewpoints into one negotiating stance one way or another. How much oversight of the process it's people will have remains to be seen.

I think you're over-estimating the importance of brexit to the rest of Europe. The EU has far more important matters to deal with and brexit is an unwelcome distraction, but no more than a distraction. I expect the other EU members to look after their own individual and collective interests, in the same way the UK has decided to. I work a bit with regional development agencies in other EU countries and I can tell you they get happier and happier every time one of the brexit morons - May, Fox, Davis and Johnson - open their mouths. They are very confident of winning much of the foreign investment that currently goes to the UK and would like to see the hardest brexit possible. May's speech to the Tory party conference where she bashed international trade and insulted everyone who's not a mindless nationalist moron made them dance with glee.

At the moment, the UK's plan for deciding the country's future is to leave it to an unelected PM and a few idiot ministers. There has never been a referendum or even an election where the form of brexit was an issue. I am truly astonished that British people are not marching in the streets and demanding a say. It does not reflect well on you.

With regards to hard or soft Brexit, the right to work elsewhere is a niche interest since the majority of people don't up sticks elsewhere and neither are they likely to. For most people it will boil down to jobs, wages, prices, public services and immigration etc and how they think these various issues will be affected. Inflation may well decide the issue for some.

Glad to see you give up your rights so easily. I really advise anyone who is scared by such talk to get out of the UK at the earliest opportunity.

 

[yorksrob]

I am truly astonished that British people are not marching in the streets and demanding a say. It does not reflect well on you.



Glad to see you give up your rights so easily. I really advise anyone who is scared by such talk to get out of the UK at the earliest opportunity.

I'm not entirely sure what anyone has to be "scared" about from stating the fact that the majority of people don't move away from their home country. Neither is it particularly 'frightening' that they will form their opinions on the basis of what affects them.

I've visited Europe on several occasions and have found those countries that I've visited beautiful and welcoming. Nevertheless, if your tone is typical of the rest of our continental neighbours, then I see little value in the "right" to move there anyway.

 

[anme]

I'm not entirely sure what anyone has to be "scared" about from stating the fact that the majority of people don't move away from their home country. Neither is it particularly 'frightening' that they will form their opinions on the basis of what affects them.

You're not scared that fundamental rights will be taken away from you without any form of democratic consultation? And in fact with the popular press (dare I say, some of it foreign-owned!) even demanding that rights are taken away without any democratic oversight? Seriously?

Can I recommend you go back a few months and look at the leave campaign's own literature!

And again - do people here *really* not have an opinion between hard and soft brexit? Don't you think you should be consulted?

I've visited Europe on several occasions and have found those countries that I've visited beautiful and welcoming. Nevertheless, if your tone is typical of the rest of our continental neighbours, then I see little value in the "right" to move there anyway.

I assume from your name that you are from Yorkshire. Are you aware that Yorkshire is part of Europe? It seems strange to say that you've "visited" Europe on several occasions. I don't know where you live now or anything about your travel habits, but I guess you probably spend most of your time in Europe.

And what do you mean by "if your tone is typical of the rest of our continental neighbours"? Are you suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with you is not British?

I am scared by the UK today.

 

[Trog]

At the moment, the UK's plan for deciding the country's future is to leave it to an unelected PM and a few idiot ministers. There has never been a referendum or even an election where the form of brexit was an issue. I am truly astonished that British people are not marching in the streets and demanding a say. It does not reflect well on you.

Have you considered that if the UK government said out loud now exactly what it had decided we absolutely had to keep in relation to the EU, the price of those things would promptly go up. As the rest of EU countries put the screws on in the knowledge that the UK will probably pay up.

Saying in advance something like we will allow EU citizens already here to remain on about the same terms as now, in return for similar treatment for UK citizens already living in the rest of the EU. Would I feel be OK as it is both sensible and balanced within itself, with the potential for both sides to say tick good idea we don't need to argue about that. Lets just put a few civil servants onto working out the details.

 

[anme]

Have you considered that if the UK government said out loud now exactly what it had decided we absolutely had to keep in relation to the EU, the price of those things would promptly go up. As the rest of EU countries put the screws on in the knowledge that the UK will probably pay up.

Saying in advance something like we will allow EU citizens already here to remain on about the same terms as now, in return for similar treatment for UK citizens already living in the rest of the EU. Would I feel be OK as it is both sensible and balanced within itself, with the potential for both sides to say tick good idea we don't need to argue about that. Lets just put a few civil servants onto working out the details.

But don't you have an opinion on whether EU citizens should be allowed to remain? Or whether UK citizens living abroad should be allowed to stay there? Or whether staying in the single market is a good idea?

These are much bigger decisions than whether to leave the EU. MUCH bigger. Do you really not care about the future of your country?

BTW, I strongly disagree that the government has not signalled its intentions. It has made them very clear. It wants to leave the single market (Theresa May said the UK would leave the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, which is a technical way of saying it, but a completely clear one) and would "prioritise" control of immigration over single market access (surely meaning the end of freedom of movement into the UK with the likely result of similar restrictions being imposed on UK citizens).

She has been totally clear what she wants. Do you agree with her? Don't you think you should have a say?

 

[yorksrob]

You're not scared that fundamental rights will be taken away from you without any form of democratic consultation? And in fact with the popular press (dare I say, some of it foreign-owned!) even demanding that rights are taken away without any democratic oversight? Seriously?

Can I recommend you go back a few months and look at the leave campaign's own literature!

And again - do people here *really* not have an opinion between hard and soft brexit? Don't you think you should be consulted?



I assume from your name that you are from Yorkshire. Are you aware that Yorkshire is part of Europe? It seems strange to say that you've "visited" Europe on several occasions. I don't know where you live now or anything about your travel habits, but I guess you probably spend most of your time in Europe.

And what do you mean by "if your tone is typical of the rest of our continental neighbours"? Are you suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with you is not British?

I am scared by the UK today.

You said it "doesn't reflect well on you" which normally suggests that you are outside of those whom you are accusing.

That said, mea culpa - it's your tone I don't like. I was wrong to bring the rest of Europe into it.

BTW I live in Yorkshire, which is on an island adjacent to a continent called Europe - in case you missed some geography lessons.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Now you're describing Islington style socialism. You work and educate your children at state schools whilst we rule and decide what's good for you and send our children to public schools.

Though for another type of Socialist, you could say...."You work and educate your children at private schools"...:roll:

 

[Harbornite]

BTW I live in Yorkshire, which is on an island adjacent to a continent called Europe - in case you missed some geography lessons.

In case you missed some geography lessons, the UK is still part of the Eurasian landmass and is regarded as being in the continent of Europe, even though it isn't part of continental Europe.

 

[anme]

You said it "doesn't reflect well on you" which normally suggests that you are outside of those whom you are accusing.

That said, mea culpa - it's your tone I don't like. I was wrong to bring the rest of Europe into it.

I absolutely consider myself to be outside of the people expressing the kind of opinions on show in the UK today. I am not like those people and do not wish to be associated with them.

BTW, I find it very strange for someone who wants rights to be taken away from millions of people without democratic consultation to criticise the "tone" of someone else. I don't really care about "tone" but I don't like your words, and words are much more important than "tone".

BTW I live in Yorkshire, which is on an island adjacent to a continent called Europe - in case you missed some geography lessons.

No. The British Isles are part of the European continent. Until about 10,000 years ago, the British Isles were not islands at all and were physically connected to the mainland. See e.g. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-12244964 . When the next ice age arrives and sea levels fall, the same thing may well happen again.

You live in Europe and you are a European.

 

[northwichcat]

They've got no chance in Sleaford, it's a safe tory seat and a brexit constituency on the order of 2:1. Tories will put up a pro-brexit mp and they'll walk in.

However Richmond Park has a good chance of producing a lib dem upset. The constituency is remain, where Goldsmith is massively leave. The Greens have pulled out, Labour is in a mess, it's a two-horse race between an anti-heathrow anti-brexit lib dem, and an anti-heathrow pro-brexit "independent-but-really-tory".

With Sleaford there is the potential option of the resigned MP standing as an independent and getting in.
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You live in Europe and you are a European.

Indeed, a bit of water doesn't mark the end of a continent. New Zealand is in the same continent as Australia and there's a lot more water between the two countries than between England and France

 

[Trog]

But don't you have an opinion on whether EU citizens should be allowed to remain? Or whether UK citizens living abroad should be allowed to stay there? Or whether staying in the single market is a good idea?

I have already said that I think that it would be a good idea if those already based on the other side of the channel to their home country were allowed to stay on a reciprocal basis. Not so sure about the single market remaining in that ties things down so much that it makes leaving rather pointless.

These are much bigger decisions than whether to leave the EU. MUCH bigger. Do you really not care about the future of your country?

I don't see how as they are a sub-set of leaving.

Yes I do care about my countries future, and my opinion is that, letting your opponent in a negotiation know what you want and are willing to pay for before you start, by discussing it all in public is a very stupid way to behave.

BTW, I strongly disagree that the government has not signalled its intentions. It has made them very clear. It wants to leave the single market (Theresa May said the UK would leave the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, which is a technical way of saying it, but a completely clear one) and would "prioritise" control of immigration over single market access (surely meaning the end of freedom of movement into the UK with the likely result of similar restrictions being imposed on UK citizens).

She has been totally clear what she wants. Do you agree with her? Don't you think you should have a say?

As I don't have any wish to go to the continent, I am not much bothered about having the right to do so, the rights of others to come the other way doubly so. As for having a say as the UK is a representative democracy by having the referendum we have already had more say than we normally would.

 

[anme]

I have already said that I think that it would be a good idea if those already based on the other side of the channel to their home country were allowed to stay on a reciprocal basis. Not so sure about the single market remaining in that ties things down so much that it makes leaving rather pointless.

Well that's absolutely true - leaving the EU but remaining in the single market would be utterly moronic - you continue to have to obey all the rules but have no say in their making. However, it's still much better than the alternative which is hard brexit, i.e. isolation and slow economic decline. But the British people have decided in their "wisdom" that we should leave the EU so we have to make the best of a terrible situation.

I don't see how as they are a sub-set of leaving.

Yes I do care about my countries future, and my opinion is that, letting your opponent in a negotiation know what you want and are willing to pay for before you start, by discussing it all in public is a very stupid way to behave.

This is nonsense told to you by nasty people who want you to shut up and have no opinion and no say about your future. You do have an opinion - you expressed it above! I find it *staggering* that you are prepared to leave this to a metropolitan elite who have never presented any of this at an election and who absolutely don't have your best interests at heart.

The negotiation point is nonsense. Of course the UK can say, for example, "we want to remain part of the single market", and the "price" in terms of other considerations will then be up for discussion. We will have to do that on day one of the negotiations! The exact price can be left to our representatives but the "big picture" is absolutely of concern to every person in the country.

Anyway, as I wrote Ms May has already signalled exactly what she plans - to leave the single market and end freedom of movement for UK citizens and for EU citizens coming to the UK. I can assure you this was heard loud and clear across the world and you can check out what they thought by what happened to the value of the pound.

As I don't have any wish to go to the continent, I am not much bothered about having the right to do so, the rights of others to come the other way doubly so. As for having a say as the UK is a representative democracy by having the referendum we have already had more say than we normally would.

I see the "I'm alright Jack" attitude remains to strong. For the rest, see above.

 

[Howardh]

If may loses the appeal @ the supreme courts, will anyone spot the wonderful irony if she has to go to the European Courts in order to gain her sovereignty to get away from Europe when the very same sovereignty was bypassed by her?

I'd have more sympathy with Brexit if any of those charged with leaving had an iota of a clue as to how to go about it.

 

[Trog]

She could also just go to Parliament and ask for a motion approving triggering the Brexit process. If she made it a motion of confidence Labour would fall over themselves in the rush to ensure there was not a general election at the moment. Win win situation for Mrs M. she either gets permission to start the Brexit process, or can go to the country saying that those nasty Labour Party MP's are trying to impede the will of the people by blocking Brexit. Then come back with a larger majority, claim the backing of the people and trigger Brexit.

 

[radamfi]

Yes I do care about my countries future, and my opinion is that, letting your opponent in a negotiation know what you want and are willing to pay for before you start, by discussing it all in public is a very stupid way to behave.

The UK government could announce immediately that it intends to keep freedom of movement and stay in the single market. That would calm the markets and give business the ability to plan for the future with confidence. No more uncertainty.

As I don't have any wish to go to the continent, I am not much bothered about having the right to do so, the rights of others to come the other way doubly so.

But you can surely see how precious this is to people reading this?

 

[Trog]

The UK government could announce immediately that it intends to keep freedom of movement and stay in the single market. That would calm the markets and give business the ability to plan for the future with confidence. No more uncertainty.

That is not within the gift of the British Government but would have to be agreed with the EU. Uncertainty restored.

But you can surely see how precious this is to people reading this?

To how many? Only a tiny fraction of a single percentage point will probably ever want to work in another EU country.