EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

How can it be cheaper to go abroad for treatment? The NHS is generally free at the point of delivery (which is not necessarily true in other countries).

In certain circumstances it can be, for example those who have to pay for dental treatment could find it cheaper in, say, Bulgaria to have bridge work done which - last time I looked - cost over £250 (band 3) here on the NHS. Of course you have to add travel and accommodation, but anyone going on holiday there anyway could be quids-in. To me the cost of basic dentistry should be free for all under the NHS; on the grounds that if someone can't afford treatment and they get absesses/cancers those would be covered by the NHS, require hospital treatment/surgery which would cost far more than giving everyone a free check-up and treatment at source.
Yes, that happened to me... I got an absess deep in my jaw which required hospitalization!! They removed the absess and tooth and fixed the jawbone in hospital - for free. Mind you, to be fair had I seen the dentist the week or month before I have no idea whether the absess could have been spotted early and prevented.

 

[Howardh]

Please provide a verifiable link showing that is the process.

Try this (amongst many others) http://www.cityam.com/274103/theresa-may-accused-brexit-bribe-over-launch-16bn-fund

Theresa May has been accused of "bribing MPs" with a £1.6bn government fund for pro-Brexit towns in England in a bid to secure their backing for her deal when it is voted on later this month.
£1bn of the pot will go towards less well-off towns in England while £600m will be available for communities to bid for. More than half the money will go to the north of England and the Midlands over a seven-year period.

and, of course, you will say it was gonna happen anyway https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1102496491598430208

Today we're launching a £1.6 billion fund to boost growth across the UK that will: Create new jobs. Help train local people. Boost economic activity. Give communities a say on how the money is spent.

a feeling not shared by many of the comments - so if it's gonna happen even if we stay in the EU - won't it? So no need for Labour to vote for the deal and the people can safely vote down Brexit should we have a further referendum as this money's coming anyway.

One question - if it ever arrives, which budget has it been removed from?

 

[edwin_m]

and, of course, you will say it was gonna happen anyway https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1102496491598430208 a feeling not shared by many of the comments - so if it's gonna happen even if we stay in the EU - won't it? So no need for Labour to vote for the deal and the people can safely vote down Brexit should we have a further referendum as this money's coming anyway.

Is this a new level of incompetence - not even being able to offer a bribe properly?

 

[Howardh]

Is this a new level of incompetence - not even being able to offer a bribe properly?

It does raise several questions; if the money's there, use it regardless of Brexit; if the money's not there but they are using it, which budget has it come from instead? And as I think has been alluded to already, weren't these run-down places going to benefit from Brexit (no, I don't know so don't ask) so they wouldn't be needing this extra cash? However Labour can still vote the deal down and know their areas will receive this money > can't they?? Or is it really a total, complete and utter farcical bribe after all?
It's one or the other. It's either the money's coming so Labour can vote Brexit away, or it isn't unless they vote for the deal.
Which?

 

[edwin_m]

Someone will probably say it comes from the £180m per week on the side of the bus ... which must have been multi-promised several times over by now, even if it had existed in the first place.

One of Labour's prominent Brexit-inclined MPs is highly unconvinced.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...esa-may-brexit-lisa-nandy-wigan-a8807226.html

If the PM wants votes for her deal, she should instead focus on ensuring a better trade relationship with the EU – we are not to be bought off

 

[Aictos]

How can it be cheaper to go abroad for treatment? The NHS is generally free at the point of delivery (which is not necessarily true in other countries).

Not if you want life saving treatment, which is expensive and certainly not free such as drugs to battle cancer etc...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/786753/nhs-cancer-patients-life-saving-drugs-cost-rules

https://www.expressandstar.com/news...her-denied-potentially-life-saving-treatment/

https://www.theguardian.com/science...ty-prices-nhs-vital-medication-pharma-profits

https://www.northtynesideccg.nhs.uk/nhs-to-save-millions-following-legal-battle-with-drug-companies/

Mostly due to the fault of the drug companies who overcharge the NHS which is why for some treatments it is cheaper to go aboard to get them.

Hence my view it IS cheaper to go aboard for some treatments.

 

[furnessvale]

Try this (amongst many others) http://www.cityam.com/274103/theresa-may-accused-brexit-bribe-over-launch-16bn-fund

and, of course, you will say it was gonna happen anyway https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1102496491598430208 a feeling not shared by many of the comments - so if it's gonna happen even if we stay in the EU - won't it? So no need for Labour to vote for the deal and the people can safely vote down Brexit should we have a further referendum as this money's coming anyway.

One question - if it ever arrives, which budget has it been removed from?

So John McDonnell and David Lammy SAYING it is a fact, makes it a fact. Poor proof, even by remain standards.

 

[anme]

So John McDonnell and David Lammy SAYING it is a fact, makes it a fact. Poor proof, even by remain standards.

Are you in favour of this bung by the government? Or of Ms May's deal?

 

[Howardh]

So John McDonnell and David Lammy SAYING it is a fact, makes it a fact. Poor proof, even by remain standards.

So can Labour vote the deal down but their areas still get this money regardless?

 

[HH]

But the very papers those people read are the ones telling us we'd be transported back to the 70's if Corbyn is elected, a time when, according to them, this country was worthless, strike ridden and inneficient

They want to go back to the 1870s...

 

[anme]

They want to go back to the 1870s...

Haha very true. Let's see who can get typhoid first!

 

[YorkshireBear]

So John McDonnell and David Lammy SAYING it is a fact, makes it a fact. Poor proof, even by remain standards.

But are you happy with quotes from Rees-mogg and Farage to be facts? Many many other brexiteers are! Including on these pages. I am told things farage says as if they are fact all the time, my dad voted to leave based on those facts. So please stop with this 'even by remain standards' nonsense and put together a sentence which says the same thing without being so confrontational.

I will give you an example.

"I am not convinced that just because John McDonnell and David Lammy have said it, it is therefore a fact. I would rather wait and see what the tories do through the next few days as Labour continue to challenge whether this is a bribe or not"

At no point in that sentence have I insulted remainers or anyone, but it makes exactly the same point you just did.

 

[Mag_seven]

More "good news" if we leave without a deal:

BMW has stepped up its warnings surrounding a no-deal Brexit, telling Sky News production of the Mini in Oxford may be at risk.

The German car giant's board member responsible for Mini and Rolls Royce cars, Peter Schwarzenbauer, said they would "need to consider" moving production from the UK as the company could not absorb the extra costs they would inevitably face.

He also told the Reuters news agency at the Geneva car show that some engine manufacturing could be lost to Austria.

https://news.sky.com/story/bmw-may-shift-mini-and-engine-work-from-uk-in-no-deal-brexit-11655739

Where is this land of milk and honey that "no-deal" Brexiters keep talking about - I can't seem to see it, can you?

 

[anme]

The good news keeps on coming! Look how simple it will be to drive in the EU after brexit. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/prepare-to-drive-in-the-eu-after-brexit

It's good news if you like red tape.

 

[Howardh]

More "good news" if we leave without a deal:
https://news.sky.com/story/bmw-may-shift-mini-and-engine-work-from-uk-in-no-deal-brexit-11655739

It's not "a fact" obviously. Now if, say, Boris had said it

 

[Cowley]

Where is this land of milk and honey that "no-deal" Brexiters keep talking about - I can't seem to see it, can you?

Bring back the Morris Minor.
We don't need no stinking BMW Minis!

 

[Howardh]

The good news keeps on coming! Look how simple it will be to drive in the EU after brexit. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/prepare-to-drive-in-the-eu-after-brexit

It's good news if you like red tape.

Any news of Eurostar's plans for no-deal? I have heard that whatever the outcome (no-deal/deal/remain) there's a three-month "grace" period where things carry on just as today. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-shuttle-eu-travel-theresa-may-a8775686.html

Eurostar high-speed trains, freight, and car shuttles would continue to run even if no deal was reached, under the measures.
The tunnel could provide a lifeline for the UK, which is expected to face chaos at its ports due to extra customs and regulatory check requirements a no-deal scenario would inevitably bring.
However, the EU says the extension for the tunnel is “strictly time limited” for three months and that it is conditional on Britain continuing to use safety standards “identical” to those of Brussels.

But I can't find anything since. And seeing as this is a rail forum someone might know if there's an update, eg will we go through the EU blue lane when in effect, it's abolished next month if there's no deal?

 

[Howardh]

Bring back the Morris Minor.
We don't need no stinking BMW Minis!

Allegro. Most secure car ever built, no self-respecting car thief would go near it. My mum once had a Triumph Dolomite nicked, but it was easily found, the police simply followed the trail of rust. Note - it turned up dumped less than half-a-mile away. The thieves had clearly given up the ghost with it, no coincidence that it was the first hill they came to where it was abandoned!!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Any news of Eurostar's plans for no-deal? I have heard that whatever the outcome (no-deal/deal/remain) there's a three-month "grace" period where things carry on just as today. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-shuttle-eu-travel-theresa-may-a8775686.html

But I can't find anything since. And seeing as this is a rail forum someone might know if there's an update, eg will we go through the EU blue lane when in effect, it's abolished next month if there's no deal?

I go in June so haven't looked beyond that... But what a joke that Eurostar do not know how they are going to run trains after 29th June!

 

[Howardh]

I go in June so haven't looked beyond that... But what a joke that Eurostar do not know how they are going to run trains after 29th June!

Let's be clear it's not Eurostar's fault!!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Let's be clear it's not Eurostar's fault!!

I was under no impression it was.

The criticism is not Brexit or Remain led either, it is simply a shambles that we do not know what will happen on 30th March yet because of incompetence.

 

[anme]

I was under no impression it was.

The criticism is not Brexit or Remain led either, it is simply a shambles that we do not know what will happen on 30th March yet because of incompetence.

I'm not sure the brexiters are innocent here (at least, the ones in parliament). They have pushed for the government to take extreme positions. They wanted article 50 to be invoked as soon as possible, before anyone had a plan. They think leaving without a deal is OK.

I have a suspicion that Mogg and friends are actually extreme remainers. From the policies they promote, I assume they actively want brexit to fail in the most serious, public and humiliating way possible, therefore discrediting the whole idea of leaving the EU. Why are they not trying to make it a success?

 

[Howardh]

I'm not sure the brexiters are innocent here (at least, the ones in parliament). They have pushed for the government to take extreme positions. They wanted article 50 to be invoked as soon as possible, before anyone had a plan. They think leaving without a deal is OK.

I have a suspicion that Mogg and friends are actually extreme remainers. From the policies they promote, I assume they actively want brexit to fail in the most serious, public and humiliating way possible, therefore discrediting the whole idea of leaving the EU. Why are they not trying to make it a success?

The question is - whatever we end up with, would more than 50% have voted for it in the referendum had the known end result be put against remain? If the country hates May's deal so much, why are we allowing it to pass?

 

[anme]

The question is - whatever we end up with, would more than 50% have voted for it in the referendum had the known end result be put against remain?

There's only one way to find out!

 

[Senex]

If the country hates May's deal so much, why are we allowing it to pass?

Because of a total breakdown of our political system? Because of the uselessness of the overwhelming majority of MPs? Because Parliament, far from being the ultimate holder of power and able to hold the executive to account, allows itself to be browbeaten by a stubborn and stupid but domineering prime minister?

 

[anme]

Because of a total breakdown of our political system? Because of the uselessness of the overwhelming majority of MPs? Because Parliament, far from being the ultimate holder of power and able to hold the executive to account, allows itself to be browbeaten by a stubborn and stupid but domineering prime minister?

I am not clear from your post whether you think MPs should vote for May's deal or against it.

 

[Howardh]

Because of a total breakdown of our political system? Because of the uselessness of the overwhelming majority of MPs? Because Parliament, far from being the ultimate holder of power and able to hold the executive to account, allows itself to be browbeaten by a stubborn and stupid but domineering prime minister?

Only the UK could work on a system where 52% of the people want something, but when they get it the majority of those could be dead against what they're given. We don't know, obviously, as we can't ask - but Farage is walking against it, and I would wager and old £20 note that not every single Brexit voter is happy with May's deal. Will they be more happy with it than remaining though? As said above, only one way to find out.

 

[Howardh]

I am not clear from your post whether you think MPs should vote for May's deal or against it.

They should vote honestly. If they think it's brilliant, then vote for it. If they think it's rubbish but still vote for it, they should resign. If they vote for it because it's what they think we want, then they should ask us.

 

[fowler9]

This country is screwed. We are taking a course of action that was voted for by a tiny minority and none of them can agree what they actually wanted. It is a complete waste of time asking any leaver what they want. You may as well ask a blue nose in Liverpool who they want to win the league out of Liverpool, Man U, Man City, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal.

 

[edwin_m]

Because of a total breakdown of our political system? Because of the uselessness of the overwhelming majority of MPs? Because Parliament, far from being the ultimate holder of power and able to hold the executive to account, allows itself to be browbeaten by a stubborn and stupid but domineering prime minister?

I'd say actually any prime minister would probably have made just as bad a job of it, because the promise just isn't deliverable. The only possible exception would be a Brexit in Name Only.

The rightwing headbangers have the prime minister's ear, and they take every opportunity to twist it.