EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[jellybaby]

That's a very good question. Wasn't there some sort of question about the practicalities of checking up on people and documentation, and the possibility of the courts objecting to the treatment of British nationals and citizens from other EU countries differently, or am I remembering completely wrongly?

I sometimes feel if our choice not to have a national database of citizens, ID cards and registration of where we live makes keeping tabs on the population difficult.

 

[Howardh]

I sometimes feel if our choice not to have a national database of citizens, ID cards and registration of where we live makes keeping tabs on the population difficult.

Funny how if you overstay in a car-park the parking company can find you! Seriously though, if there was any EU national "scrounging" off the dole; to "find" them, stop them and ultimately remove them would be more costly, especially if they appealed through the courts, than to actually just leave them claiming benefits. If so then that's an issue with our system rather than freedom of movement policy. Perhaps it's too "easy" to get UK welfare/benefits in the first place??

 

[Geezertronic]

Why didn't David Cameron, who had the ability to implement this control (I assume it's him), do this before the 2016 referendum, as then people may not have seen a need to vote leave, which is what he wanted, and it may have been a slim majority the other way?

David Cameron seems to be a name that is used sparingly recently, however he got us into this mess so whatever anyone says about the way May, the Government, and Politicians are handling Brexit, Cameron should always be remembered for calling the 2016 Referendum (People’s vote) then running away when the vote didn’t go the way he expected

 

[Howardh]

David Cameron seems to be a name that is used sparingly recently, however he got us into this mess so whatever anyone says about the way May, the Government, and Politicians are handling Brexit, Cameron should always be remembered for calling the 2016 Referendum (People’s vote) then running away when the vote didn’t go the way he expected

To be fair he ran away when he lost the vote; what happened to those who won the vote when it was their chance to instigate The Glorious Future? Gove, Johnson, Ledsome..?? Couldn't run away fast enough, they had overtaken Cameron by mid-day.

Fat chance of Brexit ever being a Success when no-one wanted to take it on. Speaks volumes.

 

[Mag_seven]

A £1.6bn fund is being launched by the government to boost less well-off towns after Brexit.

Prime Minister Theresa May said: "For too long in our country prosperity has been unfairly spread... but we want it to work for all communities."

More than half of the money will go to the north of England and the Midlands to bring jobs and stimulate growth.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47435565

This can't be right surely - I thought these areas were going to prosper after Brexit, hence the reason why they voted leave?

 

[Puffing Devil]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47435565

This can't be right surely - I thought these areas were going to prosper after Brexit, hence the reason why they voted leave?

Indeed - surely the funding is better off used in the NHS, where it was promised it would go?

 

[HH]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47435565

This can't be right surely - I thought these areas were going to prosper after Brexit, hence the reason why they voted leave?

This is why they are going to prosper. It was all part of a "cunning plan".

 

[AlterEgo]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47435565

This can't be right surely - I thought these areas were going to prosper after Brexit, hence the reason why they voted leave?

Heh. You can’t polish a turd.

This county is grossly centralised anyway. 1.6bn isn’t going to change a great deal.

 

[Howardh]

If Labour MP's fall for this bribe, then they might as well be bought off when the government wants to privatise the NHS, or remove workers rights...

Luckily at least one was on the telly this morning who could see through it all. The UK where bribery and corruption rules the roost? If the money's there for the regions it should be given to the regions full stop. Not to buy some Labour votes to get the Shabbiest Deal Ever through parliament.

 

[furnessvale]

Surely our elected representatives don't need bribing to carry out the democratically expressed wish of their constituents, do they?

 

[Senex]

Surely our elected representatives don't need bribing to carry out the democratically expressed wish of their constituents, do they?

As all the constitutional theorists tell us, they are representatives, not delegates. If they honestly believe after a proper consideration of all the evidence that the "democratically expressed wish of their constituents" has got it wrong, then it is their duty to follow their belief, not that wish, knowing that at the next election their constituents may very well kick them out.

 

[furnessvale]

As all the constitutional theorists tell us, they are representatives, not delegates. If they honestly believe after a proper consideration of all the evidence that the "democratically expressed wish of their constituents" has got it wrong, then it is their duty to follow their belief, not that wish, knowing that at the next election their constituents may very well kick them out.

Exactly! So it is NOT a bribe.

 

[Howardh]

Exactly! So it is NOT a bribe.

"I'll give your constituency £10m if you'll vote for me"
"And what if I don't vote for you?"
"You won't get that £10m".

It's a bribe, with a capital B. If the money's there, and it must be, then it should be handed out to all the areas that need it.

 

[furnessvale]

"I'll give your constituency £10m if you'll vote for me"
"And what if I don't vote for you?"
"You won't get that £10m".

It's a bribe, with a capital B. If the money's there, and it must be, then it should be handed out to all the areas that need it.

Your first three sentences were in direct quotes. Please post a link.

 

[HH]

Ah! A man who knows the price of everything...

 

[Geezertronic]

You'd have thought that if the UK is not going to get grants via the EU anymore then the money has to come from somewhere so I see it as something that was going to happen anywhere rather than a bribe etc...

 

[Aictos]

Apparently the EU offered a Canada+++ deal but for some reason May decided to go ahead with her Chequers deal, was the EU deal really that awful it had not been considered in parliament?

 

[Aictos]

Indeed - surely the funding is better off used in the NHS, where it was promised it would go?

I disagree, yes the NHS is a national treasure but it is bloated and suffers from over management and over charged for life saving drugs by the drugs companies which is why it's cheaper to go aboard for treatment.

I've nothing against the frontline staff but the NHS needs to be reformed to make it more effective in the 21st century so until that happens I don't think it ought to get even more money.

 

[Howardh]

Your first three sentences were in direct quotes. Please post a link.

They're my quotes, to illustrate the stupidity of Brexit and those trying to arrange it. Wouldn't it be nice, if for once, a leave voter could see something for what it really is? For once, like??

Whoa, hold the front page, here's another "bribe"... https://www.ft.com/content/efc6f1e0...07lbbzC_SXznHxPxvRGzMK83qX9xauvDyTM9__q6JtHXI

(I'm not alowed to "share it" due to copyright rules so I'll paraphrase...)
Chancellor Philip Hammond.....
- multibillion-pound windfall for the public finances
- spring statement
- if MPs finally back the government’s Brexit agreement.

Can't understand why we're not allowed to share a public statement from am MP?? Crazy, but these are crazy times. Meanwhile it's funny how suddenly this money's available for someone's vote, yet if we remained or went through the no-deal Brexit it isn't there?

 

[mmh]

They're my quotes, to illustrate the stupidity of Brexit and those trying to arrange it. Wouldn't it be nice, if for once, a leave voter could see something for what it really is? For once, like??

Whoa, hold the front page, here's another "bribe"... https://www.ft.com/content/efc6f1e0...07lbbzC_SXznHxPxvRGzMK83qX9xauvDyTM9__q6JtHXI

(I'm not alowed to "share it" due to copyright rules so I'll paraphrase...)
Chancellor Philip Hammond.....
- multibillion-pound windfall for the public finances
- spring statement
- if MPs finally back the government’s Brexit agreement.

Can't understand why we're not allowed to share a public statement from am MP?? Crazy, but these are crazy times. Meanwhile it's funny how suddenly this money's available for someone's vote, yet if we remained or went through the no-deal Brexit it isn't there?

Of course you're allowed to share it. What makes you think it's better to paraphrase rather than quote what he was reported to say?

Misquoting is frowned upon.

That aside, whose vote do you think is being bought?

 

[edwin_m]

Surely our elected representatives don't need bribing to carry out the democratically expressed wish of their constituents, do they?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...al-say-vote-leave-remain-survey-a8804931.html

Two-thirds of Labour supporters in Leave areas want fresh public poll amid widespread support for remaining in EU, poll finds

 

[furnessvale]

They're my quotes,

In other words, more made up remainer nonsense.

 

[HH]

In other words, more made up remainer nonsense.

Well you have to allow Remainers the occasional use of fantasy; it's not entirely the prerogative of Unicorn-believing Leavers...

 

[Howardh]

In other words, more made up remainer nonsense.

MP David Lammy must be wrong then, I suggest you have a word with him telling him he's all wrong, as it doesn't look like he will be voting for May's deal. https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1102487437761277953

The Brexit bribe is pathetic in comparison to what UK regions receive from the EU. May's Stronger Towns Fund - £1.6bn over six years / £266m per year. European Regional Development & European Social Funds to UK regions 2014-2020 - £9.34bn over 6 years / £1.56bn per year.

 

[Howardh]

Of course you're allowed to share it. What makes you think it's better to paraphrase rather than quote what he was reported to say?
Misquoting is frowned upon.

Have you tried copying and pasting from the Financial Times? Have you seen the message you get - that you have to join/sub to get so many quotes in a given time? Or is it just me? No-one want's to mis-quote but few have the time to write out a piece word-for-word.

 

[Esker-pades]

It is a bribe:

• The money offered to deprived areas is on the condition that the deal is voted through.
• If the deal is not voted through, then the money is not provided.
• Thus, it is a bribe.

QED

 

[anme]

I sometimes feel if our choice not to have a national database of citizens, ID cards and registration of where we live makes keeping tabs on the population difficult.

To play devil's advocate - what rights do people think would be infringed if the UK did have a national ID card system? It's a fantasy to think the government doesn't know who you are or where you live - think of the electoral role, tax and NHS records, credit reference agencies, DVLA, etc. It's not just the government. Private companies can easily find out too, see the examples above of private parking operators, or banks.

I know of other countries which do have central population registries, and some of which issue ID cards to all legal residents. Many people in these countries see this as a way of ensuring individual rights, and access to this registry is restricted to those who have a legitimate reason to see it and subject to democratic oversight (not based on profit like a credit reference agency in the UK). Individuals can see and correct any information held. This has many practical benefits such as local councils knowing how many people they are responsible for, and the demographic make up of these people (e.g. age - who will need a school place? who will need social care?), which allows them to plan public services in a way which is impossible in the UK. It also helps avoid situations such as the Windrush scandal.

As an aside, for a country where so many hate the concept of human rights (see the opposition to the ECHR), it seems strange that there is so much opposition to ID cards.

 

[anme]

I disagree, yes the NHS is a national treasure but it is bloated and suffers from over management and over charged for life saving drugs by the drugs companies which is why it's cheaper to go aboard for treatment.

How can it be cheaper to go abroad for treatment? The NHS is generally free at the point of delivery (which is not necessarily true in other countries).

 

[furnessvale]

It is a bribe:

• The money offered to deprived areas is on the condition that the deal is voted through.
• If the deal is not voted through, then the money is not provided.
• Thus, it is a bribe.

QED

Please provide a verifiable link showing that is the process.

 

[SteveP29]

"fings ain't wot they used to be"

But the very papers those people read are the ones telling us we'd be transported back to the 70's if Corbyn is elected, a time when, according to them, this country was worthless, strike ridden and inneficient

If our policies had looked tougher, I think you could well be right that the slim majority might have been in the other direction.

70% of the country weren't bothered about immigration (and certainly weren't going to blame the EU for it) until our glorious former Home Secretary and now Prime Minister decided it was a problem