Etickets - what is the benefit?

[Bletchleyite]

When I last used it, Trainline for Business in general looked like it came out of 2005. It was nothing like the consumer facing site.

This sadly isn't at all uncommon. I set my Dad's domain up on Google Apps for Business back when it was free, and the user experience of that was probably about 5 years behind the normal Gmail one. Businesses don't like the risk of moving fast, but you don't have to move excessively slow either.

 

[PeterC]

The only problem that I have found with tickets on my phone is that if the station is busy, then my phone will have shut down just as I reach the barrier.

If there are barriers at both ends of the journey I prefer a physical ticket or smart card which can sit in an outside pocket and be used without taking my attention away from where I am walking. Even if TfL had the technology I would stick to cards at a busy tube station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only problem that I have found with tickets on my phone is that if the station is busy, then my phone will have shut down just as I reach the barrier.

You clearly have a faulty phone. A working phone does not "shut down" unless you explicitly select the options for it to do so.

If you mean "the screen turns off", then press the single button on your phone to turn it back on and quickly type your passcode (or complete the security measure your phone has) as you walk up to the gateline. This is just a non-issue; it takes considerably less time than collecting a paper ticket from a TVM.

If there are barriers at both ends of the journey I prefer a physical ticket or smart card which can sit in an outside pocket and be used without taking my attention away from where I am walking. Even if TfL had the technology I would stick to cards at a busy tube station.

By far the easiest way to use TfL gatelines is to take your phone from your pocket and tap it on the contactless pad (no unlocking needed due to transit mode). To be honest I'd be more than happy if the free transfer on TfL was removed as long as the price of any such ticket was reduced by the cost of a zone one single*, because doing this is so much more convenient than any other method of payment to me, be that taking a paper ticket from my wallet, inserting it, collecting it and placing it back in my wallet, or be that scanning a barcode were that offered. I quite often now use Trainsplit's feature to exclude the cross-London bit from a split so I can do this and get e-tickets for the railway parts.

* Yes, I know, unlikely when DfT are involved.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

But those who prefer credit-card sized tickets for their form factor or for nostalgia grounds may not feel the same about till roll tickets.

I really like Edmondson tickets*. So should I be able to get a valid ticket in that format to keep me happy?

*Not actually true except for the purpose of this discussion.

 

[Haywain]

as long as the price of any such ticket was reduced by the cost of a zone one single

Is that a peak or off peak zone 1 single?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that a peak or off peak zone 1 single?

Depends on whether the ticket is a peak or off-peak ticket. Yes, I know, the restrictions don't fully align, but it would, as the phrase goes, come out in the wash overall, because sometimes you'd pay the same, sometimes a little more and sometimes a little less. One thing I do consider unrealistic is the often-expressed view on here that we should make an omelette but that not breaking any eggs to do so is sacrosanct.

 

[Richardr]

As ever, the railway tries to confuse things using terms like 'e-tickets'. A better description would be barcode tickets.

All tickets will be moving to barcode ticket format, whether purchased online, at a ticket office or at a ticket machine. A big advantage of barcode tickets is they can be displayed in several different ways - on paper, or on a smartphone screen. Absokutely nothing wrtong with a traditionalist wanting a physical piece of paper, or purchasing from a ticket office, but this is likely to be a till-roll style piece of paper with a barcode on it, rather than orange credit card sized card.

Is barcode a better way to describe them? I suspect most people would call them a QR code rather than a barcode, but e-ticket removes some of the jargon.

 

[jon81uk]

I’m probably a 95% paper person, only taking e-tickets when they are unavoidable or paper costs more. Its not about the physicality; I just find it easier, more convenient and safer (less risk of damage / loss / theft of a valuable phone) to offer a piece of card/paper. I don’t begrudge or think less of those who have the opposite view though.

I've lost more train tickets (and Oyster cards) than I have lost or damaged mobile phones. Therefore for me it is easier and safer to have the e-ticket rather than a paper one that I am more likely to drop.

 

[Haywain]

Is barcode a better way to describe them?

But not all barcode tickets are eTickets, although all eTickets have barcodes. The general understanding is that an eTicket is delivered to and used on an electronic device, and the term is widely used outside the railway industry - it is daft to suggest it is "railway jargon". For most away football matches I attend I receive a paper ticket with a 2D barcode on the end, and they are definitely not eTickets and nobody would ever call them eTickets.

 

[Adam Williams]

I suspect most people would call them a QR code rather than a barcode

And they'd be wrong!

 

[akm]

For most away football matches I attend I receive a paper ticket with a 2D barcode on the end, and they are definitely not eTickets and nobody would ever call them eTickets.

Never risk a "nobody":

https://www.google.com/search?inurl:ktckts.com/frequentlyaskedquestions+e-ticket



(image shows the search results, a whole gaggle of football club ticketing page FAQs that refer to football tickets as "e-tickets")

 

[Haywain]

Never risk a "nobody":

I am entirely happy with my comment, which was that the bits of card with barcodes on would not be referred to as eTickets, whereas anybody asking if the ticket has to be printed definitely does have an eTicket and not a piece of card/paper. What you are proving is that a range of mainly non-league football clubs do issue eTickets (I have had one from Hitchin Town), and that they are referred to as such.

a whole gaggle of football club ticketing page FAQs that refer to football tickets as "e-tickets"

A whole gaggle of football clubs who refer to eTickets* as eTickets, because that is what they issue.


*eTickets, e-tickets, all the same.

 

[akm]

I am entirely happy with my comment, which was that the bits of card with barcodes on would not be referred to as eTickets, whereas anybody asking if the ticket has to be printed definitely does have an eTicket and not a piece of card/paper. What you are proving is that a range of mainly non-league football clubs do issue eTickets (I have had one from Hitchin Town), and that they are referred to as such.

A whole gaggle of football clubs who refer to eTickets* as eTickets, because that is what they issue.


*eTickets, e-tickets, all the same.

Oops, comprehension fail on my part! Sorry!

 

[pelli]

If you mean "the screen turns off", then press the single button on your phone to turn it back on and quickly type your passcode (or complete the security measure your phone has) as you walk up to the gateline. This is just a non-issue; it takes considerably less time than collecting a paper ticket from a TVM.

I just bring up the E-ticket on my phone way in advance and place my thumb onto the middle of the screen (away from any tappable buttons) to keep it from turning off - it's the natural grip to hold a phone-shaped item anyway (whether in front of you or down by your side), if you're not trying to keep one side untouched!

As for how E-tickets have been useful for me: I had a regular journey involving a first-train-of-the-day on the London Underground (using Pay-As-You-Go) and a tight interchange (sub-minimum-connection-time, but very reliable early in the morning) onto National Rail out of London. I would simply buy the E-ticket for the NR leg while walking to the Underground station, but with paper tickets I would've had to buy them the day before (since there were no NR ticket machines at my starting station, and no time at the interchange to exit the barriers and visit a ticket machine) and risk losing the refund admin fee if I ended up not going.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yes. One day football will catch up! I can get an eTicket for a home match but not for away matches.

Never risk a "nobody":

(image showed the search results, a whole gaggle of football club ticketing page FAQs that refer to football tickets as "e-tickets")

Lower league clubs frequently send out paper tickets, with barcodes, to the "Away" team. This is because there is no money or interest in integrating the two box-office systems, even if they are on the same platform.

It also gives the away side more control over the distribution and allocation in case of oversubscription, and it's easier to return physical tickets as unsold with the team on the day.

Case in point - I have a paper away ticket for this weekend's match when I know it's etickets for the home fans.

 

[Haywain]

Lower league clubs frequently send out paper tickets,

I suppose lack of integration could be part of the problem, but most of my away matches in recent years have been at Championship and Premier League clubs.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I suppose lack of integration could be part of the problem, but most of my away matches in recent years have been at Championship and Premier League clubs.

Last time I went to Wembley, it was a paper ticket via a Premier League club.

 

[birchesgreen]

The only problem that I have found with tickets on my phone is that if the station is busy, then my phone will have shut down just as I reach the barrier.

Bad luck! Guess you have to just turn around and go home?

 

[Indigo Soup]

When I last used it, Trainline for Business in general looked like it came out of 2005. It was nothing like the consumer facing site (well, it looked like the Cross Country booking engine I remember from the early 2010s, which was Trainline white label)

Funnily enough, someone at work was complaining this morning about having to use Trainline for exactly that reason.

I really like Edmondson tickets*. So should I be able to get a valid ticket in that format to keep me happy?

Clearly not. My point is that the people who really like CCSTs probably don't care whether they get a till roll ticket or an e-ticket. So the convenience factor pushes them a little more towards e-tickets.

If they could still buy CCSTs somehow, they'd be likely to keep doing that. There's probably even someone out there who really likes till roll tickets, and will buy them in preference to e-tickets given the choice.

 

[Cdd89]

One problem with eTickets is that they don't support PlusBus - this can be quite good value in places that offer it where you expect to need to make more than one bus journey.

 

[Adam Williams]

One problem with eTickets is that they don't support PlusBus - this can be quite good value in places that offer it where you expect to need to make more than one bus journey.

Very much the other way around...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very much the other way around...

It's a shame Ticketer don't start supporting them. Pretty much every bus now has a barcode reader.

 

[Richardr]

Lower league clubs frequently send out paper tickets, with barcodes, to the "Away" team. This is because there is no money or interest in integrating the two box-office systems, even if they are on the same platform.

It also gives the away side more control over the distribution and allocation in case of oversubscription, and it's easier to return physical tickets as unsold with the team on the day.

Case in point - I have a paper away ticket for this weekend's match when I know it's etickets for the home fans.

It's the same in the Premier League - I think the only away match where I have had an e-ticket in the last couple of seasons was Aston Villa. This year it was paper from Villa, which turned out to be a good thing, as their system had problems and the gates for home fans were still shut with large queues an hour before the match, whereas the away fans could enter with no issue.

 

[Cdd89]

It's a shame Ticketer don't start supporting them. Pretty much every bus now has a barcode reader.

I guess we’ll have to see how the Cambridge trial goes, but I feel e-tickets are not well suited to unlimited-use products as it’s not possible to ensure they are not transferable. Most bus company passes are either single-use or use visual fraud prevention measures (like the miserable mTickets).

 

[A S Leib]

I guess we’ll have to see how the Cambridge trial goes, but I feel e-tickets are not well suited to unlimited-use products as it’s not possible to ensure they are not transferable. Most bus company passes are either single-use or use visual fraud prevention measures (like the miserable mTickets).

Which I'm guessing is also why Interrail passes are either m-tickets or physical, not as PDFs?

 

[Adam Williams]

I guess we’ll have to see how the Cambridge trial goes, but I feel e-tickets are not well suited to unlimited-use products as it’s not possible to ensure they are not transferable. Most bus company passes are either single-use or use visual fraud prevention measures (like the miserable mTickets).

Anyone with any software experience will tell you that mTickets do nothing to "ensure they are not transferable" either - client-side security may as well simply not exist.

The security of an E-Ticket solution for unlimited use tickets needs to be in the background, in terms of analysing scans and flagging up suspicious travel patterns.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

Which I'm guessing is also why Interrail passes are either m-tickets or physical, not as PDFs?

Interrail tickets require your passport details, don't they? That's the real measure that prevents the ticket being transferred.

 

[Cdd89]

Anyone with any software experience will tell you that mTickets do nothing to "ensure they are not transferable" either - client-side security may as well simply not exist

I am a software engineer and I disagree on this point. Obviously people can hack their local client or create replica apps to give the appearance of a valid ticket, but fraud prevention doesn’t have to be 100% effective, it just has to deter the majority, and an example can be made of those who are caught. (Ticket stock isn’t exactly free of forgery risk either).

The security of an E-Ticket solution for unlimited use tickets needs to be in the background, in terms of analysing scans and flagging up suspicious travel patterns

Given the competence of local bus companies, I wouldn’t be too optimistic about that happening.

 

[renegademaster]

Fitting barcode readers on every tube gate line would significantly slow it down.

It would be better if you could load your e-tickets onto Google wallet and use NFC to go through the gate. Football stadiums can manage it. TfL accepting ITSO would be nice, too.

 

[Adam Williams]

I am a software engineer

Then you should know better

Nah, but joking aside - I take your point; yes, it does raise the barrier to entry a bit. So I'll concede it's not entirely useless. But, I'm still not convinced it's as difficult for Joe Bloggs to carry out as some people make out, and how do we even know that that's not happening today? These sorts of systems are built in such a way that, by the nature of the system, a good fake is very difficult to detect. I also think there's a problem with normalising this as well - non-technical people don't understand the trade-offs and see it as a silver bullet when it's really not.

Ticket stock isn’t exactly free of forgery risk either

It's not, but that's one of the reasons we have barcodes printed on PRT stock now - so that we have the server-side security of the eTVD system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess we’ll have to see how the Cambridge trial goes, but I feel e-tickets are not well suited to unlimited-use products as it’s not possible to ensure they are not transferable. Most bus company passes are either single-use or use visual fraud prevention measures (like the miserable mTickets).

Most paper (usually barcoded these days) bus company day and weekly tickets are transferrable - either it's allowed explicitly or there's no effort put into preventing it so it's de-facto allowed. The one thing they want to prevent is passback, i.e. two people using the same ticket to board the same bus, which is easily enough done by only allowing a scan-in by that barcode on that journey once.