England's new three-tier lockdown system

[Jamesrob637]

Police will not intervene with travel to/from/within T2 areas.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

What exactly are these tiers supposed to be called? I've seen Tier 1,2,3 used and Medium, High, Very High used.

Nobody seems to have noticed or commented on the lack of a Tier 0 or ‘Low’ Tier in any of this.
Subliminally, are government sending the message that no area will ever have a complete lifting of restrictions? It’s implied that all areas of the country will forevermore be under restrictions, even if it’s only the lowest tier?

Also, on the subject of badly-written rules, in the Very High tier we have the following:
‘you must not socialise with anybody you do not live with, or have formed a support bubble with, in any indoor setting...’

Now I know workplaces are not considered a social setting, but surely mixing with colleagues for up to 8 hours a day is likely to enable virus transmission ?

 

[daodao]

Police will not intervene with travel to/from/within T2 areas.

The travel restrictions that Wales is applying in its higher risk areas should also be applied in areas in tiers 2 and 3 in England.

In addition, based on infection rates, Greater Manchester and Warrington should be in the same tier 3 category as Merseyside.

 

[yorkie]

Police will not intervene with travel to/from/within T2 areas.

There is no rule against it, is there?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2020 ==

The travel restrictions that Wales is applying in its higher risk areas should also be applied in areas in tiers 2 and 3 in England.

no they shouldn't, and how could any such restrictions possibly be enforced? it's absurd


in other news:

Lockdown: 'I've got women working for me who are sobbing'

Hospitality businesses warn of hardship and confusion as they battle with the latest restrictions.

www.bbc.co.uk

"There is currently a concerning lack of support on offer for hospitality businesses in tier 2, and to a lesser extent tier 1, despite their facing restrictions that is seeing trade down by between 40% to 60%."

Andrew Selley, chief executive of Bidfood, which supplies food to a range of outlets from pubs and cinemas to schools and hospitals, said the government had failed to recognise the knock-on impact on firms like his.

These lockdowns are badly thought through and unaffordable

people who support them should be ashamed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2020 ==

Now I know workplaces are not considered a social setting, but surely mixing with colleagues for up to 8 hours a day is likely to enable virus transmission ?

the virus cannot be stopped; transmission will continue

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Nobody seems to have noticed or commented on the lack of a Tier 0 or ‘Low’ Tier in any of this.
Subliminally, are government sending the message that no area will ever have a complete lifting of restrictions? It’s implied that all areas of the country will forevermore be under restrictions, even if it’s only the lowest tier?

Subliminal, yes, but not in that way.

More that there’s no low risk category so people then assume low risk = no risk.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The Statutory Instruments are published. Both Tier 1, 2 or 3 and Medium, High, Very High are used interchangeably it seems.

Support Bubbles do exist in Very High Tier 3.

No mention of travel restrictions.

There appear to be new offences in Tiers 1 and 2 which make it an offence for residents in those areas to meet residents in higher areas. Previously it seemed just to be the case that the person living in a restricted was banned from participating in a gathering outside the restricted area and could be fined, now it seems both parties could be fined if, for example, someone from Tier 2 or 3 met up with someone in a lower tier in a setting which would otherwise be permitted in that lower tier. I.e. if I went to meet my parents who live in Tier 1 and who can have guests in their house, and I got caught previously only I could be fined. Now we could both be fined for meeting up as Tier 1 rules prohibit them taking part in a gathering in a Tier 1 area if it contravenes the relevant section in Tier 2 or Tier 3 rules.

 

[185143]

I'll be travelling from a tier 2 area via Liverpool on Thursday. I'll be changing onto Merseyrail at Lime Street and cannot make this journey avoiding Merseyside. (Ok, I COULD head up the Wirral, but I'll still be passing through there). I assume this is still legal?

 

[Yew]

Point is we no Covid-19 is bad, really bad. So goodness knows how much worse things would have been without any control measures.

WHO statistics suggest that the Infection Fatality Ratio is comparable to seasonal influenza

 

[david1212]

First BoJo has passed the buck on some closures in tier 3 to the local council - i.e. don't blame me and my Westminster colleagues but blame them.

Second there are no clear thresholds between the tiers. This gives flexibility but also discrepencies. The latest case rate for Wolverhampton is 104 cases per 100,000 but it in tier two with Birmingham as is Walsall with 136 cases per 100,000 while Coventry too has 136 cases per 100,000 but remains in tier one.

Third no distinction for Nottinghamshire & Northumberland between the urban areas and predominantly rural areas where much lower risk yet not Leicestershire. IMO very unfair to the former and any other similar rural areas.

 

[HSTEd]

Wait so are support bubbles across boundaries abolished?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

They really are making this up as they go along aren’t they? Good lord - mind boggling. They have to be seen to be doing something I guess.

 

[bramling]

First BoJo has passed the buck on some closures in tier 3 to the local council - i.e. don't blame me and my Westminster colleagues but blame them.

Second there are no clear thresholds between the tiers. This gives flexibility but also discrepencies. The latest case rate for Wolverhampton is 104 cases per 100,000 but it in tier two with Birmingham as is Walsall with 136 cases per 100,000 while Coventry too has 136 cases per 100,000 but remains in tier one.

Third no distinction for Nottinghamshire & Northumberland between the urban areas and predominantly rural areas where much lower risk yet not Leicestershire. IMO very unfair to the former and any other similar rural areas.

Yes it did make me wonder when they showed Bamburgh Castle on the news last night and said it was “in lockdown”. Seemed a bit extreme.

 

[Lloyds siding]

I'll be travelling from a tier 2 area via Liverpool on Thursday. I'll be changing onto Merseyrail at Lime Street and cannot make this journey avoiding Merseyside. (Ok, I COULD head up the Wirral, but I'll still be passing through there). I assume this is still legal?

My understanding is that, if 'in transit', then you're legal. However, you say that you are transferring to Merseyrail, is your final destination in Merseyside?

 

[Crossover]

First BoJo has passed the buck on some closures in tier 3 to the local council - i.e. don't blame me and my Westminster colleagues but blame them.

Second there are no clear thresholds between the tiers. This gives flexibility but also discrepencies. The latest case rate for Wolverhampton is 104 cases per 100,000 but it in tier two with Birmingham as is Walsall with 136 cases per 100,000 while Coventry too has 136 cases per 100,000 but remains in tier one.

Third no distinction for Nottinghamshire & Northumberland between the urban areas and predominantly rural areas where much lower risk yet not Leicestershire. IMO very unfair to the former and any other similar rural areas.

I’m not going to lie, I thought more areas would have been Tier 3 and I fully expected some parts of West Yorkshire and GM would fall under it. Pleased that for now it hasn’t, of course

Wait so are support bubbles across boundaries abolished?

I wouldn’t have thought so

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2020 ==

Just heard a great one on the radio news
‘Under the high tier, which is the medium one’ - fabulous

 

[Busaholic]

If Cornwall is Medium Risk then I do query the use of the word 'medium'. Our main (and only Covid patient taking) hospital until two weeks ago had not only not experienced a death for almost six weeks but was entirely free of having to care for ANY Covid patients for more than half of September, including the week I spent in there following a routine operation. I guess nowhere is allowed to be classified 'low risk' in case we start to wonder why so many of us are scaring ourselves witless, and that would never do.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Wait so are support bubbles across boundaries abolished?

No.

I perhaps should have been clearer.

My interpretation is that if a gathering takes place in Tier 1, if a person from Tier 2 is taking part then it must comply with Tier 2 restrictions.

Support bubbles can meet across Tiers it seems.

So, as an example.

Person A lives in Tier 2.
Person B lives 5 miles away in Tier 1.

Person A and B are in a support bubble together.

On Friday evening Person B is in the pub with Persons C and D, both from different households. But this is allowed because they all live in and are gathering in Tier 1.

Person A joins Person B, which is allowed as they are in a support bubble.

At this point the gathering involving C and D with A and B becomes illegal because B lives in Tier 2 and can only meet indoors with persons from the same household or support bubble.

 

[DelayRepay]

Subliminal, yes, but not in that way.

More that there’s no low risk category so people then assume low risk = no risk.

Even if nowhere is low risk at the moment, it would be nice to have a low risk category as something to aspire to.

Didn't we originally have five tiers, but they were only mentioned once in a press conference, and then never heard of again?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2020 ==

If Cornwall is Medium Risk then I do query the use of the word 'medium'. Our main (and only Covid patient taking) hospital until two weeks ago had not only not experienced a death for almost six weeks but was entirely free of having to care for ANY Covid patients for more than half of September, including the week I spent in there following a routine operation. I guess nowhere is allowed to be classified 'low risk' in case we start to wonder why so many of us are scaring ourselves witless, and that would never do.

I suppose if Cornwall was officially 'low risk', you would possibly see more people travelling there from other parts of the country? Not sure if locals would consider that a good thing?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2020 ==

I’m not going to lie, I thought more areas would have been Tier 3 and I fully expected some parts of West Yorkshire and GM would fall under it. Pleased that for now it hasn’t, of course

Give it a few days - I think they're still 'negotiating' with the local mayors/authorities.

 

[Bantamzen]

They really are making this up as they go along aren’t they? Good lord - mind boggling. They have to be seen to be doing something I guess.

Its not really surprising, after all our flip-flopping government are only following the lead of other flip-flopping governments, all of whom are trying to throw different ideas at the virus in the vain hope one of them sticks. Clearly lockdowns don't work, even the WHO is now backing slowly away from them, but its easier for them to change their minds as few people are paying much attention. For our respective governments backing away from them is harder, so now ours has re-invented the wheel and come up with an incomplete system that gives them the choice who to punish, gives local councillors the opportunity to throw more punishments at their citizens, and best of for BoJo & Co offers literally no exit plan, no level '0'.

So in a way its an improvement, assuming of course that making an a fudged system even more fudged. If it were not so serious it would be hilarious.

 

[Busaholic]

I suppose if Cornwall was officially 'low risk', you would possibly see more people travelling there from other parts of the country? Not sure if locals would consider that a good thing?

There were fears (including my own, I admit) after the lockdown that the number of summer visitors would lead to a big increase in cases, but it never happened. The fact is that the Cornish economy can't do without the visitors, especially now that the last of the significant EU cash input is working through the system. ''Stay away, just send us your money'' has oft been the rather schizophrenic attitude towards visitor numbers in Cornwall, and not just amongst the indigenous Cornish.

 

[Yew]

Those should have been options, yes. Maybe not "shot", but definitely a full lockdown where nobody leaves the house unless a key worker. This would only be used if the NHS *actually was* overwhelmed - it would kick in at the point that someone was refused COVID treatment due to healthcare capacity.

In that situation I can think of one person who would be forced to leave his house.

Its not really surprising, after all our flip-flopping government are only following the lead of other flip-flopping governments, all of whom are trying to throw different ideas at the virus in the vain hope one of them sticks. Clearly lockdowns don't work, even the WHO is now backing slowly away from them, but its easier for them to change their minds as few people are paying much attention. For our respective governments backing away from them is harder, so now ours has re-invented the wheel and come up with an incomplete system that gives them the choice who to punish, gives local councillors the opportunity to throw more punishments at their citizens, and best of for BoJo & Co offers literally no exit plan, no level '0'.

Indeed, what happened to the peri-peri-ometer? Did the forget about it?

 

[185143]

My understanding is that, if 'in transit', then you're legal. However, you say that you are transferring to Merseyrail, is your final destination in Merseyside?

No, it's well outside Merseyside.

 

[ChrisC]

Third no distinction for Nottinghamshire & Northumberland between the urban areas and predominantly rural areas where much lower risk yet not Leicestershire. IMO very unfair to the former and any other similar rural areas.

Yes this does seem very unfair, and like so much that the government is doing, so inconsistent. Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire are neighbouring counties but rural areas of Nottinghamshire are in Tier 2 along with the City of Nottingham but in Leicestershire the city and county have been kept separate.

Conservative MPs in former Labour areas of Nottinghamshire are not happy that their areas of the county have been treated the same as the city. I think there will be real disappointment and unrest if infections in Nottingham continue to rise and Nottingham is raised to Tier 3 and the county is also included. It would be very unfair if the pubs were closed in the villages of rural Nottinghamshire. The same applies to Northumberland and Durham.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Cheshire East and Cheshire West & Chester have been sneakily included in the new Tier 2 restrictions, despite their case rates - particularly in the more rural parts of those areas - being comparable to surrounding areas that have not been included.

Completely illogical for restrictions to be applied on a unitary authority or county wide basis, because of the vastly different way of life between rural and urban areas. Then again, it's a total waste of time to expect anything about this to be logical, even if it is (at long last) a little simpler.

 

[Philip]

I’m not going to lie, I thought more areas would have been Tier 3 and I fully expected some parts of West Yorkshire and GM would fall under it. Pleased that for now it hasn’t, of course

I wouldn’t have thought so

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2020 ==

Just heard a great one on the radio news
‘Under the high tier, which is the medium one’ - fabulous

Greater Manchester rates have levelled off a bit in the last week. The tier 2 restrictions ought to be quite effective in reducing transmission if people are responsible and adhere, since it is basically banning mixing with other households both in private and public settings. I don't agree with enforcing restrictions on travel - even for Liverpool, it'll just cause more stress and have a bad effect on mental health. People have to take some responsibility now and not do stupid things like going out in big groups and having big parties, getting lashed etc and wear face coverings where they should be wearing them unless exempt.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The latest and so far only welcome death in the c19 pandemic is that of “following the science”, which given the minutes of September’s SAGE meeting the government can no longer claim to be doing

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll be travelling from a tier 2 area via Liverpool on Thursday. I'll be changing onto Merseyrail at Lime Street and cannot make this journey avoiding Merseyside. (Ok, I COULD head up the Wirral, but I'll still be passing through there). I assume this is still legal?

I wouldn't bet on the rentathugs not saying anything, however they did specifically say that transit through such an area was OK. The travel thing is not legislated, however, it's advice.

OTOH, if you're talking about Ormskirk, Aughton Park or Town Green (the only three places I can think of that aren't in the Liverpool City Region where one would go via Lime St and Merseyrail to reach, rather than avoiding the whole "peninsula" and going up the WCML), I'd go via Preston and avoid it entirely.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I take it the original 1-5 scale is obsolete as we now have the tiers?

The 3 tiers almost sounds like the 3 peaks. I suppose they are both uphill challenges we most overcome.

CJ

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it's well outside Merseyside.

Go on, give us a clue (don't need to name the station, just the area). I'm baffled. Because of the lie of the land, there's no reason to enter the "peninsula" that contains the Liverpool City Region, West Lancashire and nothing else, really, unless your destination is in that area. For anywhere else you can bypass it up the WCML (or, if it's part of the Wirral in Cheshire, via Chester or Shotton).

 

[C J Snarzell]

Go on, give us a clue (don't need to name the station, just the area). I'm baffled. Because of the lie of the land, there's no reason to enter the "peninsula" that contains the Liverpool City Region, West Lancashire and nothing else, really, unless your destination is in that area. For anywhere else you can bypass it up the WCML (or, if it's part of the Wirral in Cheshire, via Chester or Shotton).

If 185143 lives around Chester or North Wales, he/she could easily bypass Merseyside by going across to Warrington Bank Quay and then using the WCML. I'd personally avoid Merseyrail services in the current climate - their staff are like pack hungry rottweilers at the best of times.

CJ

 

[Peter Sarf]

Go on, give us a clue (don't need to name the station, just the area). I'm baffled. Because of the lie of the land, there's no reason to enter the "peninsula" that contains the Liverpool City Region, West Lancashire and nothing else, really, unless your destination is in that area. For anywhere else you can bypass it up the WCML (or, if it's part of the Wirral in Cheshire, via Chester or Shotton).

Begs the question. If a journey is via a tier-3 area would ticketing allow a normally NOT reasonable route to include a route avoiding the tier-3 area. Most logical via's are via large conurbations. These areas are always going to be candidates for tier-3 restrictions sooner or later (hope I am wrong) so a lot of roundabout routes might start becoming attractive. This post could belong in ticketing I suppose but I have raised it here as another question to do with the tiers.

Regarding @C J Snarzell post that just appeared above. I would add that it could seem sensible to avoid any metro routes. Particularly underground routes as these are supposed to be less well ventilated so more risk. Especially as they are more likely to be in tier-3 areas. I am assuming more areas are going to fall into Tier-3 eventually including my local one - London.