EMT disruption this weekend: overtime ban?

[jamesontheroad]

Apologies if duplicating another thread, but couldn't find one with a few searches.

For the last few days EMT have been actively forewarning passengers of planned disruption on Sunday 2 August. Details here, but basically:

• no service Nottingham - Liverpool
• reduced service Nottingham - Matlock
• reduced service Nottingham - Skegness
• reduced service Nottingham - Norwich

Is this caused by EMT relying on overtime to crew these services? And if so, are the same old habits that crippled Central Trains back in the day to blame?

 

[dk1]

They do have whats often regarded as the 'Annual BBQ Day'. Traincrews are not going to give that gem of a condition away cheaply as is always an excellent bargaining tool against the TOC.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I overheard a conversation on 'Pebbles The High Speed Train' on Saturday. (that's the summer special between Derby and Skegness for the uninitiated).

Apparently the dispute is about being not paid 'walking time' for the time between signing on and reaching the train under new rosters (or insufficient time), and also a staff member retired and people wanted a drink on the Saturday night, and you can't if you're driving the next day.

On the face of it both seem reasonable to me and the issue could have been foreseen and avoided.

PS nice 'Pebbles' headboard by the way. Nice to see someone making the effort, swapping it to the other end for the return journey too.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Retirement drinks is a lame excuse, we all know when we sign up to work on the railway that your social life goes out the window and drinks on a Saturday night is a rare privilege. In this instance it would be up to the retiree to give enough notice that people have the option of taking leave for the following day, if you can't then you stick to soft drinks.

 

[bradders1983]

Retirement drinks is a lame excuse, we all know when we sign up to work on the railway that your social life goes out the window and drinks on a Saturday night is a rare privilege. In this instance it would be up to the retiree to give enough notice that people have the option of taking leave for the following day, if you can't then you stick to soft drinks.

Wouldnt really work if Sundays rely on people volunteering for shifts

 

[LowLevel]

Retirement drinks is a lame excuse, we all know when we sign up to work on the railway that your social life goes out the window and drinks on a Saturday night is a rare privilege. In this instance it would be up to the retiree to give enough notice that people have the option of taking leave for the following day, if you can't then you stick to soft drinks.

I shall comment only to correct a detail for clarity purposes and say that the retirement drinks were on Sunday and EMT drivers have no commitment whatsoever to work Sundays, so make of that what you will.

 

[455driver]

Retirement drinks is a lame excuse, we all know when we sign up to work on the railway that your social life goes out the window and drinks on a Saturday night is a rare privilege. In this instance it would be up to the retiree to give enough notice that people have the option of taking leave for the following day, if you can't then you stick to soft drinks.

But on EMT Sundays are not compulsory so all the staff just made themselves not available, there is no need to use a days leave etc as it isn't a working day.

What you are saying is that the staff should have worked their day off on Sunday (as all Sundays are on EMT) rather than go to a well respected chaps retirement do, good luck with that one!

 

[portervalley]

Most Northern Leeds - Nottingham services I saw yesterday were strengthened to 2 x 158 or 158 + 153 to provide additional capacity between Sheffield and Nottingham. In the evening, RTT does not show replacement bus provision for the cancelled EMT services once Northern had stopped running. The last Northern service ex Sheffield for Nottingham is at 20.07 (presumably later Shef - Nott passengers had to travel via Derby).

The last Sheffield to Chesterfield train on a Sunday is provided by an EMT Liverpool - Nottingham service (23.30 ex Sheffield). With this not running yesterday the last service was the signifcantly earlier 22.35 depature (for Derby) - there is no 23.20 Derby departure on a Sun as there is Mon - Sat. Fortuitously the 22.06 XC service for Birmingham NS was running 75 mins late so passengers intending to travel on the 23.30 may have been able to catch that at 23.20.

I assume that the Hope Valley local stations did not have a late evening eastbound service last night.

The EMT website said 'Nottingham to Liverpool – customers are advised to use alternative train operators’ services'. This is all very well in the day when there are alternative services Nottingham - Sheffield, Sheffield - Manchester, Manchester - Liverpool but not so great in the evening.

 

[Class83]

The EMT services west of Sheffield are pretty appalling in the evening at the best of times. Last train towards Liverpool is 1940 Monday-Saturday and 1836 on Sunday. Given it takes under 2 hours I'd expect definitely a 2040 and probably a 2140 which would reach Liverpool well before midnight.

 

[LAX54]

I shall comment only to correct a detail for clarity purposes and say that the retirement drinks were on Sunday and EMT drivers have no commitment whatsoever to work Sundays, so make of that what you will.

So is this not a case of a TOC deciding sometime ago, that if they dont make Sunday a working day, and overtime only, then they can save money by not having any Driver's booked in, and can 'cancel' them out when not needed ?

 

[Tomnick]

So is this not a case of a TOC deciding sometime ago, that if they dont make Sunday a working day, and overtime only, then they can save money by not having any Driver's booked in, and can 'cancel' them out when not needed ?

Probably more to do with avoiding the (significant) additional cost that'd be incurred if they employed extra drivers rather than covering Sunday work with existing drivers working overtime - training, NI/pension contributions, management, spare cover, that sort of thing.

 

[Mugby]

Does anyone know if this dispute is likely to continue on subsequent Sundays?

 

[LAX54]

Does anyone know if this dispute is likely to continue on subsequent Sundays?

is it classed as a 'dispute' ? or simply just working their booked day off ?

 

[LowLevel]

So is this not a case of a TOC deciding sometime ago, that if they dont make Sunday a working day, and overtime only, then they can save money by not having any Driver's booked in, and can 'cancel' them out when not needed ?

British Rail rather than a TOC - the right not to work Sundays has never been bought off them as far as I know.

 

[ExRes]

This old chestnut again, when I joined MML I signed a contract which stated that sunday was outside of the working week and, obviously, still remains so

MML/EMT employees do not want to 'sell' their sundays, they have a first hand example, SWT, of how you get seen off if you do get tempted by the cash and the economical truth of both the employer and union

As has also been said before if EMT wish to bring sundays in and offer a decent and regular service it will cost them a small fortune to do so, something I very much doubt they really want

 

[jamesontheroad]

is it classed as a 'dispute' ? or simply just working their booked day off ?

EMT were at great pains to emphasise that these were just "staff shortages" and not "industrial action."

As part of a longer conversation about her journey, a passenger mentioned on Twitter that they had heard it referred to as "industrial action" at Manchester Oxford Road. EMT's Twitter team were quick to correct her, saying "it's certainly not industrial action."

 

[HH]

This old chestnut again, when I joined MML I signed a contract which stated that sunday was outside of the working week and, obviously, still remains so

MML/EMT employees do not want to 'sell' their sundays, they have a first hand example, SWT, of how you get seen off if you do get tempted by the cash and the economical truth of both the employer and union

As has also been said before if EMT wish to bring sundays in and offer a decent and regular service it will cost them a small fortune to do so, something I very much doubt they really want

Except that LOROL drivers did agree to Sundays being included in the working week.

 

[ExRes]

Except that LOROL drivers did agree to Sundays being included in the working week.

More the fool them

 

[455driver]

More the fool them

Agreed.
This is one of the examples of ASLEF working for the good of the union (Sundays inside means more drivers so potentially more ASLEF members) instead of for the good of their existing members who will soon realise they are now bent over the table with their trousers around their ankles and Management calling the shots!

 

[berneyarms]

Surely, however, at some point this issue has to be dealt with?

Times have changed so much that it is somewhat farcical that in this day and age the railways are reliant on volunteers to operate the service on Sundays.

Eventually they are going to have to come to some arrangement with drivers, and indeed (like Abellio in Scotland) recruit sufficient drivers to ensure that there are enough drivers to cover the roster and that they get a fair balance of weekends on/off.

 

[ComUtoR]

Surely, however, at some point this issue has to be dealt with?

Times have changed so much that it is somewhat farcical that in this day and age the railways are reliant on volunteers to operate the service on Sundays.

Lets chuck in Christmas Day and Boxing Day too.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Except that LOROL drivers did agree to Sundays being included in the working week.

what a mistake that was. 26 Sundays a year grrrr. only one complete weekend every four weeks . loads of Tuesdays and Wednesdays off though

 

[HH]

The lure of filthy lucre... 26 Sundays a year is a lot - is part of the reason because some drivers opted out? How many could you get off as leave if you took all the odd days on Sunday?

I think drivers still have several weapons left in their arsenal even if they're contracted to work Sundays (current disputes show that); they don't need to fear being rogered from behind just yet.

 

[whoosh]

ASLEF agreed a deal with Midland Mainline for Sundays in the working week, but it was vetoed by the parent National Express Group. 2004 I think that was, or 2005.

EMT have never even asked in negotiations.



LOROL was originally 18 Sundays when first put in the working week. After a few years the company approached ASLEF for an increase. The deal for the extra Sundays (up to 26 per year) was quite good - an extra £2000 in salary, and a reduction from 4.25 days a week to 4 but keeping the same average turn of duty length (spare turns were lengthened to make up the hours on paper).

 

[t0ffeeman]

The lure of filthy lucre... 26 Sundays a year is a lot - is part of the reason because some drivers opted out? How many could you get off as leave if you took all the odd days on Sunday?

I think drivers still have several weapons left in their arsenal even if they're contracted to work Sundays (current disputes show that); they don't need to fear being rogered from behind just yet.

you can't get annual leave unless you book it months ahead. let alone at weekends or during the summer.

five weeks annual leave are rostered (including those holiday weeks of first week in Jan...) which gives 9 spare. eight are extra days which are the bhs which are now paid at flat rate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ASLEF agreed a deal with Midland Mainline for Sundays in the working week, but it was vetoed by the parent National Express Group. 2004 I think that was, or 2005.

EMT have never even asked in negotiations.



LOROL was originally 18 Sundays when first put in the working week. After a few years the company approached ASLEF for an increase. The deal for the extra Sundays (up to 26 per year) was quite good - an extra £2000 in salary, and a reduction from 4.25 days a week to 4 but keeping the same average turn of duty length (spare turns were lengthened to make up the hours on paper).

and since then they have been telling us how lucky we are to earn such an amount!! they did the pay deal! what they didn't think was a Tory government would put vat up by 2.5 % which effectively put rpi up 2.5% higher then it would otherwise been.

 

[ExRes]

ASLEF agreed a deal with Midland Mainline for Sundays in the working week, but it was vetoed by the parent National Express Group. 2004 I think that was, or 2005.

EMT have never even asked in negotiations.

Well that was jolly nice of ASLEF then, considering I was working for MML in 2004 nobody ever asked what my opinion was, I rather think that when it came to actually including the staff in their little deal ASLEF may have got more than a little surprise

 

[whoosh]

At Derby it resulted in the bizarre situation of a Union meeting taking place on a Sunday, all the drivers making themselves 'not available' with many attending the meeting. The Union officials explaining how frustrated they were at negotiating a deal, but that the people they were negotiating with were 'overruled', and the drivers responding by explaining how frustrated they were that they didn't want Sundays in the working week but that the union was trying to negotiate this anyway.


It basically resulted in a 'Barbecue Sunday' over the withdrawal of a deal apparently negotiated with monkeys and overruled by organ grinders who weren't the ones in the negotiations, that the drivers never wanted anyway!

 

[bunnahabhain]

EMT have never even asked in negotiations.

Yes they have, the offer was rejected.

 

[physics34]

alot of us at southern went on a stag do recently..... and they were convinced it was some kind of industrial action, but it wasnt it was literally a lot of train crew who would normally work rest days went on this 3 day stag do!

 

[ExRes]

alot of us at southern went on a stag do recently..... and they were convinced it was some kind of industrial action, but it wasnt it was literally a lot of train crew who would normally work rest days went on this 3 day stag do!

Drunken anarchists