EMT again

[RJ]

I think you've got a bit of cheek expecting EMT to question you choice of location to sit on the train RJ. By your own admission, you've pretty much gotten just what you wanted from EMT - to be left alone and not have your ticketing choices challenged. That seems to extend to it not necessarily being obvious from your tickets where you have come from and where you are going, as well as not challenging the validity of your tickets. It seems like on this occasion, that's exactly what happened - you weren't challenged or questioned - and rightly so given your circumstances. I don't work in the railways but I know that in a similar situation in my own work role I'd do exactly the same - assume you knew what you were doing and leave you to your own devices, not out of spite but on the assumption you did indeed know what you were doing as I'd been advised so to do. And should you have messed up (and ended up in Corby in this case) I'd have expected you to sort your own mess out too.

I don't think asking a passenger if they're sure they're in the correct portion of the train comes under the same category as challenging their ticket in the context as described in the brief - but that is something we'll have to disagree on.

Besides, their staff have actually been specifically instructed to make a note of the actual journey I'm making - so they're supposed to ask me where I'm going. The instruction is quoted here. As such, I will ask where you got the impression that I was to be left to my own devices?

With regards to being left alone, I had a lucky run - things almost returned to normal last week, where I had 5 tickets withdrawn in one fell swoop on one of their trains.

 

[kieron]

I don't think asking a passenger if they're sure they're in the correct portion of the train comes under the same category as challenging their ticket in the context as described in the brief - but that is something we'll have to disagree on.

Besides, their staff have actually been specifically instructed to make a note of the actual journey I'm making - so they're supposed to ask me where I'm going.

I think EMT would be happy if their staff remember the important stuff, such as anything which could cause problems with the DfT or result in compensation. They would like to know where you/re going with unusual tickets, but it doesn't really matter to them whether or not someone asks you.

I'm sure there are lots of people who sit in the "wrong" bit of a train anyway, especially if it's less crowded and they're nowhere near the split point. A reminder that this is the Corby section wouldn't go amiss, but I wouldn't be disappointed not to be given one.

 

[RJ]

I am presently travelling to the East Mids for a day trip on the 06:37 down service. I was originally intending to catch the 05:45, but I missed that. I hold Priv tickets from London to Luton Airport Parkway, Luton Airport Parkway to Kettering, a ticket from Loughborough to Leicester and one more ticket from Leicester to my destination.

Given the 06:37 calls at Luton but not Luton Airport Parkway, I obtained an overdistance excess to Luton from the ticket office at St Pancras for 75p.

Unfortunately, I've happened upon one of the TMs who doesn't like me very much. I have a feeling this is the same one who hurled a torrent of abuse at me the last time we met - this was after I'd paid her £74 for a UFN solely to avoid a confrontation and found her after the journey to return the chip and pin pad she had carelessly left on the table.

This time, the TM is throwing a strop because I'm using a Loughborough to Leicester ticket to cover the Kettering to Leicester leg of the journey. Her initial response was to say that she knows I travel often and like being difficult. News to me, but I ignored this and proceeded to explain why it was valid and asked her if she was willing to let me prove it by showing her on my laptop. She declined to entertain this but made a phonecall to someone, who correctly guessed who I was without being given any hints. She told them that she informed me the ticket wasn't valid, but that I think that I'm more knowledgeable than them. She then walked away, declaring she'd be keeping hold of the tickets but will give them back before I get off.

From what I gather, there will be a RPI summoned to the train at some point in the journey, presumably to issue a Penalty Fare. It's a pity really - this is my penultimate trip on their trains for the foreseeable future and I haven't had any problems since March.

 

[island]

Perhaps she'll withdraw your Priv too.

 

[RJ]

Update - the TM returned having noticed that the tickets were endorsed PRIV. She said that by using such tickets, I was misusing the pass and said she'd have to report it. She said I could have my passes withdrawn and be fired.

She then started showing interest, asking who I worked for and where I worked. The TOC is shown on the Priv and I did reveal that I work in a ticket office. However, I refused to provide any further details of my work arrangements. She then went down the road of asking if I issued the tickets myself and said that was not permitted. To save her the hassle of checking, I let her know that the tickets were purchased from Paddington and EMT's St Pancras ticket offices - neither of which I work at.

Almost at Leicester now where I suspect the RPI will join :roll:

 

[oddiesjack]

I am surprised that a Loughborough to Leicester ticket is valid on a journey in the opposite direction from Kettering to Leicester. Could you explain to a relative ticketing simpleton the validity of this please?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I am surprised that a Loughborough to Leicester ticket is valid on a journey in the opposite direction from Kettering to Leicester. Could you explain to a relative ticketing simpleton the validity of this please?

Loughborough - Melton Mowbray - Oakham - Kettering (via Corby) - Leicester is a mapped route on Map EM in the Routeing Guide, and the ticket in question is valid for break of journey/starting long/stopping short.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Why do some ticketing staff insist that they always know more than the passenger? I have no difficulty in appreciating that some people will have a greater knowledge of some areas of ticketing than me simply by virtue of the fact that they frequently make regular journeys over an area that forms only a part of my route knowledge, plus ticketing route knowledge has to extend further than actual route knowledge.

Using a Loughborough to Leicester ticket to cover a journey from Kettering to Leicester does sound completely implausible but provided I'm given a rational explanation as to how it is valid I will accept it and move on. Perhaps EMT has a different emphasis in their staff training but I don't see any point getting involved in silly arguments with passengers that cannot be resolved without intervention from somebody who is not on the train.

 

[AlexS]

It sounds like the kind of route that would ordinarily be begging for a negative easement with the negligible frequency/use to passengers doing the point to point journey but no one has thought of it yet. Something along the lines of 'passengers travelling from Loughborough to Leicester or return may not travel via Melton Mowbray.'

Obviously as it's not there then its a pretty simple explanation as to why it's valid and it's surprising such a fuss has been made of it.

 

[Starmill]

She declined to entertain this but made a phonecall to someone, who correctly guessed who I was without being given any hints.

Hahahah! Pretty soon the whole of Stagecoach will know who you are! Did an RPI get on?

 

[185]

Comments and threats made were out of order. I would be considering legal action against EMT if one of their MML staff had made threats about losing your job.

Your travel was in accordance with listed permitted routes.

Benefit of doubt is quite important, and when I don't know, I either go and find out first, or let it go. Of the view that if people have paid at least something, I'd rather spend my time chasing the ones with the altered / fake / stamper-rubbed-off tickets.

And staff? Never sold a Priv ticket in my life.... when asked - "Soz. I don't know how to". (Well, except to myself) .....Allegedly :P

Only time in fifteen years of using Priv I had mild grief was on an MML train just after EMT took over.

 

[Olympian]

Over 24 hours since the last update - so what happened when you got to Leicester RJ, or are you still there explaining to the RPI why your combination of tickets was valid?!!!!

 

[Welshman]

Over 24 hours since the last update - so what happened when you got to Leicester RJ, or are you still there explaining to the RPI why your combination of tickets was valid?!!!!

Hear hear!
Come on, you can't leave us in suspense.
And when's this long-promised blog coming along?
Should be fascinating reading.

 

[jon0844]

RJ is on his way to guantanamo bay.

 

[jb]

RJ is on his way to guantanamo bay.

Or perhaps the transit area of Sheremeteyevo airport.

 

[Realfish]

Hear hear!
Come on, you can't leave us in suspense.
And when's this long-promised blog coming along?
Should be fascinating reading.

I think that he should buy some of those new Google video specs so we can log in to live streaming of his adventures

 

[edwin_m]

Nah, the Russians wouldn't accept it as a permitted route from Hong Kong to Ecuador.

 

[jon0844]

I think that he should buy some of those new Google video specs so we can log in to live streaming of his adventures

Yes, that is a perfect use for Google Glass!

 

[RJ]

Sorry for the lack of an update. In between moving house, dealing with admin after being a passenger on a bus that crashed into a taxi a couple of days ago and catching up on sleep, I haven't had a whole heap of spare time.

The RPI did not materialise. The TM did not give my tickets back to me as promised either. I got off at my destination stop and it transpired after a good 5 minutes that the TM had given the tickets to another member of dispatch staff, who then brought them to the gateline where I was waiting.

I then rang Customer Relations and gave them a piece of my mind. I've complained about this TM before - she was indeed the one who was abusive towards me at St Pancras a while back because I tried to explain why my ticket was valid rather than give her £74 without a word of protest. It turns out that nobody fed back to her that the tickets were valid and the money was fully refunded, so she was able to use that previous incident as leverage to intimate that I was a fare evader and that she was justified in her actions, past and present.

She did say that she would be reporting misuse of my Priv to my employers with a view to me having the pass withdrawn and me being dismissed - if I find out she has followed up this promise then EMT can expect to be subjected to a fair amount of recourse. I have been threatened in a similar manner on a number of occasions by her colleagues and revenue protection staff at Southeastern and TPE. It's a load of hot air from power hungry individuals who don't know where the extent of their authority ends. In all cases, reports have been submitted yet no further action taken.

This time, I intend on making use of all resources available to have the matter and all of the incidents in the past put right. I have time available and seeing as I'm already actively dealing with Southeastern, the marginal effort should be minimal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hear hear!
Come on, you can't leave us in suspense.
And when's this long-promised blog coming along?
Should be fascinating reading.

I'm done with exams and coursework now so hopefully in the next few days. I have a few retrospective entries to write up. As the working title suggests, it will be centred on my travels on both the buses and the trains, with a particular focus on incidents of which I seem to encounter a disproportionate amount - both as a witness and a (unwilling) participant. I suppose that's what comes with living as a noctural in London!

 

[bb21]

I must say that while I enjoy reading all these tales and admire your ability to do extensive research and perseverance, I do sometimes wonder whether the saving is really worth the additional hassle, eg. by using a Loughborough - Leicester ticket instead of a Kettering - Leicester ticket and complicating things no end.

But then again your choice and fair game.

 

[RJ]

I must say that while I enjoy reading all these tales and admire your ability to do extensive research and perseverance, I do sometimes wonder whether the saving is really worth the additional hassle, eg. by using a Loughborough - Leicester ticket instead of a Kettering - Leicester ticket and complicating things no end.

But then again your choice and fair game.

Yes, it is. I've been using variants of that ticket for a few months now. On several occasions, ticket inspection staff have followed the brief they were issued with and taken down the details of tickets I have presented without challenging me. There always has to be one who is desperate and feels they're adept enough to go against the instruction and try to be the first one to successfully pin something on me

 

[TonyR]

There always has to be one who is desperate and feels they're adept enough to go against the instruction and try to be the first one to successfully pin something on me

Have you considered notifying them that they are in breach of the Protection from Harassment Act ?

Given the way the TOCs use the threat of criminal prosecution for even minor mistakes, I would have no problem with using criminal prosecution threats against their mistakes. Perhaps next time you could call the BTP for some delicious irony

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/crossheading/england-and-wales

 

[RJ]

Have you considered notifying them that they are in breach of the Protection from Harassment Act ?

Given the way the TOCs use the threat of criminal prosecution for even minor mistakes, I would have no problem with using criminal prosecution threats against their mistakes. Perhaps next time you could call the BTP for some delicious irony

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/crossheading/england-and-wales

I don't make threats. EMT have made it clear that they don't take my complaints seriously, are not prepared to take sufficiently effective measures to rein their staff in or compensate the costs that have arisen as a result of their failure to train their staff up on tickets and humility. I have exhausted all correct channels and amicable ways of resolving the problem, but EMT are not prepared to take heed. Hence the recurrence of these events. They have become quite adept at the art of fobbing off, especially by claiming they speak to the staff involved. On at least three seperate occasions, I've come across staff I've lodged formal complaints again, trying exactly the same rubbish on me and claiming that nobody fed anything back to them. Too many to be considered as isolated oversights.

As such, I am now in the process of taking various stages of action against them. I won't make any threats but in due course, their management will come to find out exactly what I've done.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I don't make threats. EMT have made it clear that they don't take my complaints seriously, are not prepared to take sufficiently effective measures to rein their staff in or compensate the costs that have arisen as a result of their failure to train their staff up on tickets and humility. I have exhausted all correct channels and amicable ways of resolving the problem, but EMT are not prepared to take heed. Hence the recurrence of these events. They have become quite adept at the art of fobbing off, especially by claiming they speak to the staff involved. On at least three seperate occasions, I've come across staff I've lodged formal complaints again, trying exactly the same rubbish on me and claiming that nobody fed anything back to them. Too many to be considered as isolated oversights.

As such, I am now in the process of taking various stages of action against them. I won't make any threats but in due course, their management will come to find out exactly what I've done.

I am a Beeston punter so use both EMT to London and EMT to all the other places they go to. I was on a trip to Lincoln the other day and remarked to the guard, when she was checking tickets, that the various online booking engines allow travel via Sheffield on a Nottingham - Lincoln ticket. Her response was to agree that it sounded dodgy but suggested a trip to the booking office or internet to check the routeing guide - "It has a lot of unintended quirks," she said. I said, tongue in cheek like, that at least she'd heard of the RG, which was a big contrast to London-route staff, who have denied its existence. Her reply:

"What do you expect? That lot think they own the bloody world!"

So it seems even inside EMT there's knowledge of bad practice.

 

[RJ]

In general I have found the Senior Conductors to be more friendly than their Train Managers, but that is very much a generalisation. A number of TMs are very pleasant indeed. I've also written in letters of praise which have not gotten back to the individuals involved either.

 

[MichaelAMW]

In general I have found the Senior Conductors to be more friendly than their Train Managers, but that is very much a generalisation. A number of TMs are very pleasant indeed. I've also written in letters of praise which have not gotten back to the individuals involved either.

I have wondered whether the "pedigree" of the staff, viz. whether they were employed from the Central Trains or Midland Mainline bit of EMT's history, is significant. If it is then it might even affect the attitude of those who arrived more recently, under EMT's management, as the two sets of services might well have different cultures in terms of how they get on with the job.

 

[Starmill]

I am a Beeston punter so use both EMT to London and EMT to all the other places they go to. I was on a trip to Lincoln the other day and remarked to the guard, when she was checking tickets, that the various online booking engines allow travel via Sheffield on a Nottingham - Lincoln ticket. Her response was to agree that it sounded dodgy but suggested a trip to the booking office or internet to check the routeing guide - "It has a lot of unintended quirks," she said. I said, tongue in cheek like, that at least she'd heard of the RG, which was a big contrast to London-route staff, who have denied its existence. Her reply:

"What do you expect? That lot think they own the bloody world!"

So it seems even inside EMT there's knowledge of bad practice.

I'm a regular user of the EMT Lime St - Norwich services' western half and its like a different company all this stuff that comes out from their 'Mainline' staff on here... Never had a single problem

 

[bb21]

I'm a regular user of the EMT Lime St - Norwich services' western half and its like a different company all this stuff that comes out from their 'Mainline' staff on here... Never had a single problem

There does seem to be a distinct cultural difference between EMT depots.

 

[RJ]

It's not just the TMs - some of the RPOs and RPIs are even more clueless and end up getting themselves into hotter water than the TMs.

I saw the vile STP based RPI eyeing me up a couple of weeks ago as I was waiting for my train. It was all I could do not to burst out laughing, because he takes himself too seriously and has stated his knowledge always trumps mine due to me being less than half his age. This time he sat in his seat and stayed put - an improvement on the previous occasion when after I had gained access to the platforms through the gateline, got out of his perch to run after me, shouting out my name and putting his dirty hand on me to physically restrain me from boarding the train to Leicester. I suspect he was only dealt with because they realised I was going to take things further when I tried to obtain the CCTV - this was tactfully intercepted by EMT.

Then there was that strange RPO who upon realising who I was, desperately accused me of several different offences in quick succession. It really was quite sad and I almost told her and her colleague to go off and decide what it is they wanted to pin on me, then come back and express themselves coherently. Needless to say, they got nothing. EMT fully supported their actions after I complained about the way I was treated after showing a valid ticket.

People are supposed to fear/respect the role of revenue staff, but from much of what I've seen and experienced, they're a laughing stock. I don't know what their management think, but they're clearly quite happy to have a number of morons representing them. How is one supposed to respect a ticket inspector who knows next to nothing about tickets and also prioritises revenue collection over safety, punctuality and customer service?