EMR Class 360's

[Spartacus]

So, no real evidence whatsoever ! (rather as expected)

I could drag through the delay minutes if you like, but then I'm not allowed to disclose them publicly, so it would be kind of a wasted effort. There's a good few people on the operational side who are rather unimpressed with how the 360s have been performing.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The fact that the reliability of the Class 360 fleet is lower then it should be is simply down to the poor maintenance under Greater Anglia, if they were kept well maintained then there would be no reason for the fleet to have such low reliability.

Least as maintenance is now back with Siemens, the reliability levels should increase but it will take time due the level of neglect the fleet got under Greater Anglia.

They went from 84,000 MTIN when they won the Golden Spanner in Dec 2019 Modern Railways to 18,000 just a year later.

I can tell you that my observations from late 2019 and early 2020 pre-pandemic were the units were getting less TLC internally than before and I would imagine the engineering side, with reduced input from Siemens than previously, was no different.

 

[Aictos]

They went from 84,000 MTIN when they won the Golden Spanner in Dec 2019 Modern Railways to 18,000 just a year later.

I can tell you that my observations from late 2019 and early 2020 pre-pandemic were the units were getting less TLC internally than before and I would imagine the engineering side, with reduced input from Siemens than previously, was no different.

My point exactly it's why Greater Anglia is at fault here as there's no reason why the MTIN should have fallen so low if they were properly maintained.

 

[jopsuk]

presumably if the reliability dropped that sharply, there's scope with investment in engineering (staffing, training, facilities, equipment) to improve it pretty dramatically as well?

 

[fat_boy_pete]

Interview in the latest Modern Railways magazine with EMR MD where he confirms that 360's will get same FISA Lean seats in 2 abreast as per the new Hitachi's, when they are refurbished. Says options re tables and seat pitch are 'under consideration'.

 

[edwin_m]

Interview in the latest Modern Railways magazine with EMR MD where he confirms that 360's will get same FISA Lean seats in 2 abreast as per the new Hitachi's, when they are refurbished. Says options re tables and seat pitch are 'under consideration'.

He also says the contract hasn't been let for refurbishment, and the first refurbished train isn't expected until quarter 3 next year. Not sure if this is calendar year (=autumn) or financial year (=winter).

 

[fgwrich]

He also says the contract hasn't been let for refurbishment, and the first refurbished train isn't expected until quarter 3 next year. Not sure if this is calendar year (=autumn) or financial year (=winter).

Expected, unfortunately. Though I hope there is a program to at least tidy up the internal state of the 360s in the meantime. At least the Eastleigh Works paint job will help to improve their image a little.

 

[Wolfie]

Interview in the latest Modern Railways magazine with EMR MD where he confirms that 360's will get same FISA Lean seats in 2 abreast as per the new Hitachi's, when they are refurbished. Says options re tables and seat pitch are 'under consideration'.

I don't really get that. The 2+2 seating on all 350s except the 350/2s is damned comfortable. If it ain't broke....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't really get that. The 2+2 seating on all 350s except the 350/2s is damned comfortable. If it ain't broke....

360s are 3+2. And to be fair the FISA LEAN is very similar to the Grammer E3000, so you'd just pick the cheaper of the two.

 

[Wolfie]

360s are 3+2. And to be fair the FISA LEAN is very similar to the Grammer E3000, so you'd just pick the cheaper of the two.

I know that 360s are 3+2. The 2+2 seats are identical except for greater spacing between seats and arm rests. I imagine that they are likely modular and could be refitted.
If you are buying/fitting new seats and two are similar with one cheaper then l agree which is likely to be chosen.

 

[sheepy1991]

The fact that the reliability of the Class 360 fleet is lower then it should be is simply down to the poor maintenance under Greater Anglia, if they were kept well maintained then there would be no reason for the fleet to have such low reliability.

Least as maintenance is now back with Siemens, the reliability levels should increase but it will take time due the level of neglect the fleet got under Greater Anglia.

The maintenance of the 360’s has always been with Siemens since initial delivery during FGE’s tenure.

The drop in reliability is simple enough, Siemens at Ilford were being shown the door with the departure of the 360’s. Future prospects for the staff at Siemens Ilford were thin and for some completely non existent as the only transfer options to remain with Siemens were other Siemens sites nearby.

Many staff therefore left for pastures new, some shifted over to GA and some to Bombardier given the relatively secure future maintaining the Aventra’s at Iford, others left Ilford and Siemens completely.

With all the experience that quickly departed and the short staffing levels, the fall of MTIN was to be expected.

Happens time and time again with fleet cascades and renewals, lots of uncertainty / lack of job security etc all have an effect.

For those quick to bash the GA fleet teams please have a look at the last few years performance for the legacy / BR era fleets prior to disposal, notably the class 90’s, 321’s and 315’s. They have been pumping out record levels of performance, for some fleets the best performance in their lifetimes and sadly just prior to being cut up.

Hopefully now the 360’s have a certain and secure future, Siemens can regain the performance we all know the 360’s can achieve.
Fingers crossed for some large investment in the planned refurbishment too.

Successive short term contracts with little chance of investment return really did leave the fleet looking worn and tired. No TOC or ROSCO in their right mind would pay for a full refurbishment given the constant extensions and uncertainty of the Greater Anglia franchise over the last 10 years since NX departed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know that 360s are 3+2. The 2+2 seats are identical except for greater spacing between seats and arm rests. I imagine that they are likely modular and could be refitted.
If you are buying/fitting new seats and two are similar with one cheaper then l agree which is likely to be chosen.

You could well fit frameworks with armrests and fit the existing Grammers to that, but it could well cost more than new seats.

 

[MML]

Disappointed to learn the visits to Eastleigh are purely for repainting. A nice new livery is always appealing but soon turns into a cosmetic con when you enter and view worn upholstery and grimey carpets. Unbelievable we are going to have to wait another year before we see new interiors.
Another 4-car departure today with standing passengers. When is the unserviceable unit in Cricklewood sidings going to be fixed? I haven't noticed much movement for months.

 

[Wolfie]

You could well fit frameworks with armrests and fit the existing Grammers to that, but it could well cost more than new seats.

Ok, interesting. I hadn't realised that the costs might be that high.

Oh, l travelled on two of the 170s destined for EMR from WMT yesterday. The interiors obviously aren't new but they are clean, tidy and fully serviceable.

 

[Aictos]

Disappointed to learn the visits to Eastleigh are purely for repainting. A nice new livery is always appealing but soon turns into a cosmetic con when you enter and view worn upholstery and grimey carpets. Unbelievable we are going to have to wait another year before we see new interiors.
Another 4-car departure today with standing passengers. When is the unserviceable unit in Cricklewood sidings going to be fixed? I haven't noticed much movement for months.

360121 has been at Eastleigh since late June, it doesn't take 3 or more months to repaint a unit not when you can just vinyl it.

The maintenance of the 360’s has always been with Siemens since initial delivery during FGE’s tenure.

The drop in reliability is simple enough, Siemens at Ilford were being shown the door with the departure of the 360’s. Future prospects for the staff at Siemens Ilford were thin and for some completely non existent as the only transfer options to remain with Siemens were other Siemens sites nearby.

Many staff therefore left for pastures new, some shifted over to GA and some to Bombardier given the relatively secure future maintaining the Aventra’s at Iford, others left Ilford and Siemens completely.

With all the experience that quickly departed and the short staffing levels, the fall of MTIN was to be expected.

Happens time and time again with fleet cascades and renewals, lots of uncertainty / lack of job security etc all have an effect.

For those quick to bash the GA fleet teams please have a look at the last few years performance for the legacy / BR era fleets prior to disposal, notably the class 90’s, 321’s and 315’s. They have been pumping out record levels of performance, for some fleets the best performance in their lifetimes and sadly just prior to being cut up.

Hopefully now the 360’s have a certain and secure future, Siemens can regain the performance we all know the 360’s can achieve.
Fingers crossed for some large investment in the planned refurbishment too.

Successive short term contracts with little chance of investment return really did leave the fleet looking worn and tired. No TOC or ROSCO in their right mind would pay for a full refurbishment given the constant extensions and uncertainty of the Greater Anglia franchise over the last 10 years since NX departed.

That may be case but they shouldn't have arrived in such a run down state that they did and even though Siemens may well have maintain them, it should have been the responsibility of the TOC at the time to ensure they were in a decent state.

Even simple stuff like a deep clean of the carpets, seats, ceilings and wall panels would have be better which I don't think is down to Siemens but rather the TOC hence why some responsibility has to go to the TOC.

 

[43102EMR]

He also says the contract hasn't been let for refurbishment, and the first refurbished train isn't expected until quarter 3 next year. Not sure if this is calendar year (=autumn) or financial year (=winter).

So you’re telling me that 360121 has been at Eastleigh for 2+ months solely for a repaint? What a huge disappointment, especially for Southern MML passengers…

 

[59CosG95]

So you’re telling me that 360121 has been at Eastleigh for 2+ months solely for a repaint? What a huge disappointment, especially for Southern MML passengers…

I'd wager that it's had corrosion repairs too, similar to the 350s at Long Marston.
Bear in mind that Eastleigh is very stretched with the number of contracts they have (no doubt exacerbated due to the pandemic), and that the first unit always takes longer due to familiarisation requirements.

 

[43102EMR]

I'd wager that it's had corrosion repairs too, similar to the 350s at Long Marston.
Bear in mind that Eastleigh is very stretched with the number of contracts they have (no doubt exacerbated due to the pandemic), and that the first unit always takes longer due to familiarisation requirements.

EMR probably went for the cheapest option here, but the least they could’ve done is got the fleet refurbished internally there, or like SWR and LNR, left the repaints till later on and focus purely on the interior refurb…

 

[43096]

EMR probably went for the cheapest option here, but the least they could’ve done is got the fleet refurbished internally there, or like SWR and LNR, left the repaints till later on and focus purely on the interior refurb…

They may not be able to just leave the repaints til later. Sooner or later they become due under the maintenance regime and the ROSCO will insist they are done.

 

[43102EMR]

They may not be able to just leave the repaints til later. Sooner or later they become due under the maintenance regime and the ROSCO will insist they are done.

Yeah I guess so - bare in mind the paint’s remained untouched since 2002/3!

 

[weastebusdepot]

Yeah I guess so - bare in mind the paint’s remained untouched since 2002/3!

Yes and I believe part of the reason it is taking so long is the original paint has an anti-vandal coating which is designed to prevent it being painted over. Hence this needs to be removed and then for the replacement to be equally resistant to being painted over.

 

[westcoaster]

So you’re telling me that 360121 has been at Eastleigh for 2+ months solely for a repaint? What a huge disappointment, especially for Southern MML passengers…

I do not buy this, the amount of time it has been there is excessive for a repaint or corrosion repair. Pictures posted show it has already been painted for a while.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2021 ==

Disappointed to learn the visits to Eastleigh are purely for repainting. A nice new livery is always appealing but soon turns into a cosmetic con when you enter and view worn upholstery and grimey carpets. Unbelievable we are going to have to wait another year before we see new interiors.
Another 4-car departure today with standing passengers. When is the unserviceable unit in Cricklewood sidings going to be fixed? I haven't noticed much movement for months.

from my understanding only Kettering drivers can get the faulty unit to Bedford for fixing, and I believe there is not many of them. I'm not sure if Siemens do light work at Cricklewood at all.

 

[Class360/1]

Are the 360s usually unreliable?

No, at least not in Anglia. They won a golden spanner a year ago

 

[SolomonSouth]

No, at least not in Anglia. They won a golden spanner a year ago

OK

 

[fgwrich]

So you’re telling me that 360121 has been at Eastleigh for 2+ months solely for a repaint?…

Yes, given that it has been there for a fraction over 2 months, it is not unreasonable length of those for the first unit to be completed. These units will have been externally rubbed back to bare metal as part of the process and had whatever corrosion repairs needed doing to them. Also, the photos you will have seen is only the cab end of one vehicle - you don’t know whether the rest of the unit may be complete or not.

I'd wager that it's had corrosion repairs too, similar to the 350s at Long Marston.
Bear in mind that Eastleigh is very stretched with the number of contracts they have (no doubt exacerbated due to the pandemic), and that the first unit always takes longer due to familiarisation requirements.

Exactly this. This will be the first Desiro unit painted by Arlington and will have taken them some time to familiarise themselves with it - believe me, splitting and joining a classic Desiro can certainly be an experience with those 24 cables between each vehicle!

 

[MML]

360106 operating as a single 4-car unit today. Standing commuters again. Obviously not enough serviceable units to make it an 8-car on the peak journey into London. Why are EMR regularly unable to provide 8 car formations when they have 21 x 360s and an average service requirement of just 12. I just don't understand how this organisation is fit for purpose?
That's leaving aside the fact they still haven't procured a business to undertake the internal refurbishment. They knew they were getting the 360 fleet long before COVID, yet they still use it as an excuse. DfT hold the purse strings now, the work might have been delayed due to supplies or social distancing. But they haven't even concluded a contract for the work to be done, let alone start the refurbishment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

360106 operating as a single 4-car unit today. Standing commuters again. Obviously not enough serviceable units to make it an 8-car on the peak journey into London. Why are EMR regularly unable to provide 8 car formations when they have 21 x 360s and an average service requirement of just 12. I just don't understand how this organisation is fit for purpose?
That's leaving aside the fact they still haven't procured a business to undertake the internal refurbishment. They knew they were getting the 360 fleet long before COVID, yet they still use it as an excuse. DfT hold the purse strings now, the work might have been delayed due to supplies or social distancing. But they haven't even concluded a contract for the work to be done, let alone start the refurbishment.

Given how highly reliable Northampton's near identical 350s are, this strikes me as bizarre. What's the difference?

 

[43102EMR]

Given how highly reliable Northampton's near identical 350s are, this strikes me as bizarre. What's the difference?

Main difference is that GA have basically run them into the ground during their last moments in the East Anglia - not to mention that difficulty of access to Northampton means that only a few units can go up there each week…

 

[warwickshire]

Main difference is that GA have basically run them into the ground during their last moments in the East Anglia - not to mention that difficulty of access to Northampton means that only a few units can go up there each week…

Will in time maybe.
East Midlands railways set up and have a dedicated 360 Depot somewhere like cricklewood maybe.
To save on these 360 movements and also as well to have a Depot that can do major issues and repairs to improve reliability as well.
Surely the movements as well.
Most not be doing them any good.

 

[Nottingham59]

difficulty of access to Northampton means that only a few units can go up there each week…

What is the difficulty of access? Sure, the 360s need to be dragged, but EMR could drag several every night. Did you mean lack of capacity at Northampton?