TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Yes. Nothing has been changed internally on any stock type since EMR took them on.
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EMR Class 170 updates
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Bizarrely one thing that has happened is EMR have apparently had some of the National Express ScotRail moquette made up (I thought someone had found some in stores in Scotland and sent it down, but no, apparently it's been produced to order) and re-covered some of the seats on some of the 170/4s - 420 has been done, you can tell because the ex FC seats suddenly appeared in the standard class moquette. Why they've spent money on such a thing I have no idea.
Clansman
Established Member
QSK19
Member
Beggars belief! Could they not have installed the 810 moquette colours? The trains are such a mix of interior colour schemes that another one wouldn’t have made a difference; and installing the 810 moquette would have given a glimpse of the future - as in, the trains will be refurbished and this is what you can expect to see.
If l was guessing l would speculate that, like Virgin and London Overground before them, they didn't want to impair their new image by using it on old unrefurbished rolling stock. However, they have done an external re-livery on that same rolling stock which rather undermines that idea.
What a strange thing to do. That said I'm surprised First didn't own their moquette design - if it's a standard thing I might recover my sofa in the Southeastern first class moquette!
Do the ex-Southern 170s still have the Southern moquette like they did with Southern? IIRC the moquette was placed directly on top of the ScotRail moquette and as a result was quite loose and didn't contribute to those trains feeling tatty and in a much worse state than the other 171s.
Do the ex-Southern 170s still have the Southern moquette like they did with Southern? IIRC the moquette was placed directly on top of the ScotRail moquette and as a result was quite loose and didn't contribute to those trains feeling tatty and in a much worse state than the other 171s.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
I wonder why the interiors are neglected but the exteriors on the 360s and many 170s have been finished in a very glossy finish. For example, the 360s externally all look a lot smarter than say, the LNw 350s, i.m.o.. Does it fool anyone who uses the services, though?
Most trains are reliveried before being refurbished so that the new brand is displayed and that people know there's a new company. Rarely is this trend broken, in fact from my memory only SWR have broken from this rule as they refurbished most of their trains before repainting them, which had the opposite problem to EMR where the interiors, whether fully or partially refurbished, were nice and new while the trains were still in the dirty SWT livery.
Davester50
Member
I forgot I took a pic of the interior of this last year. Was quite funny to see in Nottingham. The mix of Original and Saltire was amusing
The picture is of a class 170 seat covers
Techniquest
Veteran Member
That ScotRail purple interior has me on a nostalgia trip, many memories from that era!
Maybe it's for the Corby services!
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Greater Anglia did also with the very 360s that we’re discussing now. First Great Eastern purple seat covers, among other things, replaced with Greater Anglia’s own interior colour scheme, but exterior never done.
Davester50
Member
It's lasted well. Much better than the blue ones. The headrests are minging and need a good shampoo.
QSK19
Member
Oh the irony!
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So that’s why there are no 360 refurbishments… they blew the budget on that!
Not quite. The majority of it is, but Abellio ScotRail did kindly change the carpets to the Transport Scotland design in Scotland
However, being a light colour they've dirtied pretty quickly over the years. And as you say, EMR has barely done anything to them except for the above post about new old (don't we call that retro now?!) seat covers.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
The EMR approach is the complete reverse of normal marketing. You improve your product to your standards and then put your identity ('brand') on it.
Putting your new brand on the old tatty product just means the customer associates the old tatty stuff with your brand.
If the old tatty appearance is expected to be around for a while, the approach could be the one used by Stagecoach E.M. with the ex Great Western buffet cars in the ex Grand Central sets; have a sign that says something on the lines of 'we apologise for the condition of this coach but we will be refurbishing it as soon as we are able - Stagecoach East Midlands Trains'.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
And then adding the whole big in your face Airport Express branding too, like they’ve got something to be proud of rather than a shambolic tatty mess, is just bizarre
43074
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Although to be fair to EMR by everyone else's standards they are pretty good, you can rely on the train turning up - mostly with the correct number of coaches - and generally on time, whilst staff on trains and stations are generally good too.
They aren't as good at the "soft" things like cleanliness and perhaps the First Class offer could be better on Intercity, but then again its much easier to deal with that sort of thing than to try and run the railway with a timetable or traincrew strategy that fundamentally doesn't work; that isn't the case on EMR in my experience.
Then again, the 360s weren't even done by National Express - until EMR they were still in First Great Eastern colours.
Clansman
Established Member
It just needs an SPT seatbase to complete the tatty package. There's one or two SPT bases cutting about on ScotRail 170s at the minute, along with one or two HSTs with saltire headrests dotted about as patch up jobs. EMR could certainly do worse (surprisingly!).
Baxenden Bank
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I appreciate this is a specific Class 170 thread.
Train presentation is important but I would prefer them offer the full pre-covid timetable rather than take units out of service for refurbishment. Whilst EMR are running a reduced timetable perhaps the opportunity does exist to carry out a mini-refurb on 'spare' units.
As to full timetable, I am not talking about removing peak-hour enhancements to every 10 minutes, or offerering 8-car vice 12-car formations. Just the boring, basic hourly timetable without two-hour gaps please. A dirty scruffy train is always better than no train.
Train presentation is important but I would prefer them offer the full pre-covid timetable rather than take units out of service for refurbishment. Whilst EMR are running a reduced timetable perhaps the opportunity does exist to carry out a mini-refurb on 'spare' units.
As to full timetable, I am not talking about removing peak-hour enhancements to every 10 minutes, or offerering 8-car vice 12-car formations. Just the boring, basic hourly timetable without two-hour gaps please. A dirty scruffy train is always better than no train.
QSK19
Member
Absolutely agree with the sentiment that getting from A to B is the most important thing; however, there does come a time when a refurbishment cannot be put off any longer - the 170s (and 360s for that matter) surely cannot go potentially 40 years without any refurbishment. It gets to a stage where the equipment becomes so knackered that it verges on being dangerous (eg I reported a completely detached seat base on one of the 170/5s; and to EMR’s credit, it got fixed straightaway). So, I am afraid that there will have to come a time when units are taken out of service regardless of peak or off-peak; but it’ll be for the greater good and once the first several are refurbished, the operation to refurbish the rest will be slick.
I doubt they'll be around for another 40 years.
New stock = less in leasing costs.
But then again, if no more diesels are able to be ordered... I guess we'll be stuck with hybrids that work on diesel all the time.
That's because you could claim for an injury.
When you've reported it, they officially know so have to act.
HappyDriver99
Member
I don't understand why they couldn't refurbish the interiors before they came into service. Surely getting it all done internally and externally while emr still had enough 156's would have been the smart thing to do. The interiors on the ex Scot rail and WM are so tatty.
It's ok though cos at least they pumped all that money into that weird draft excluder mascot thing....miles.
It's ok though cos at least they pumped all that money into that weird draft excluder mascot thing....miles.
They didn't have enough trains though or at least that is the reason they gave for not returning quickly to the pre-covid timetable.
Skymonster
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And yet a number of 170s transferred to EMR were parked at Barrow Hill for a while before entering service…
That was due to the works at Etches Park resulting in reduced capacity, and Eastcroft being full - there would have been nowhere to commission/service them for EMR.
Skymonster
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Indeed, but it’s strange that some people say EMR hasn’t got enough 170s to allow any to be taken out of service for refurb, and yet some have been parked up for weeks if not months. Also strange how other TOCs manage to send units away for refurb (eg: Northern to Crewe, Wolverton) and yet EMR can’t do the same even if Etches Park and Eastcroft are full. Let’s face it, the reality is there’s no ambition or drive within EMR to improve things or offer passengers reasonable standard of accommodation, let alone make a start on meeting the franchise commitments as they relate to incoming units and upgrades to facilities. IMO Abellio has been a disaster for the East Midlands rail franchise - all [marketing] form and little or no real substance. Abellio will of course trumpet the [eventual] arrival of the 810s as a major achievement and an improvement for passengers, while those of us who have the misfortune to use the Regional fleet including the 170s will undoubtedly still be sitting in filthy seats that are part of knackered interiors.
The problem is that EMR never intended to operate a large fleet of 170s *and* 26 158s *and* a full fleet of 222 units from Etches Park and Eastcroft - the 158s should be gone by now - which hugely impacts the efficiency of depot operations which then leads to reduced reliability - most days start with a couple of spare 170s (rarely if ever 158s) at Nottingham or Derby but they're soon used. Alternatives are being considered but for now things are tricky - the diagrams will change to release whichever units go for refurb first accordingly. Some 158 diagrams are already semi officially booked for 170s to try and give some slack there (2 Liverpool circuits for example).
Now at 60 trains in the Regional fleet I believe (170506 for whatever reason taking a while to be commissioned) of which 13 are 3 cars and the rest 2 cars giving I think 133 vehicles. There's another 4 x 3 car units to come at some point in 2024 giving 145 vehicles.
EMT's peak 15x unit allocation was I think 109 vehicles so it's a fairly big difference - OK the HSTs have gone but they were mostly maintained at Neville Hill.
It's also worth considering that franchise commitments as they were in 2019 are dead, everything is up to the DfT now.
Work is definitely ongoing to start the programme of works on the Regional fleet but it's not ready to have trains in the workshop just yet.
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