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EMR 70min Flex fare

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drueberflug

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Most of us have already heard of LNER trialling those "flexible" Advance-like tickets, where you can take any train departing within a 70-minute timeframe.

Apparently, EMR is in the process of doing the same, but with GTR setting the fares for Luton Airport Parkway to London Terminals, the Super Off-Peak fare hasn't been scrapped.

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Not even NRE could provide me with any information on those fares, does any of you have any information on this?
 
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signed

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This is actually one where that makes sense and is very beneficial to the passenger.

But that doesn't sound good, I would expect very limited availability.
 

Benjwri

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This is actually one where that makes sense and is very beneficial to the passenger.

But that doesn't sound good, I would expect very limited availability.
It of course only makes sense if other tickets such as Off Peak aren't binned at the same time. LNER 70 minute flex appeared before the other tickets disappeared iirc
 

Hadders

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There really isn't a case for Advance tickets, or 70-minute Flex Advance fares on a journey where contactless can be used.

Given that contactless fares, valid on EMR services between Luton Airport Parkway and St Pancras are £16.60 peak/£12.30 off-peak I'm actually speechless that EMT is contemplating introducing these fares.

I thought people wanted simplification....
 

drueberflug

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This is actually one where that makes sense and is very beneficial to the passenger.

But that doesn't sound good, I would expect very limited availability.
I'd say that in this specific case, this is not the case at all, because the Anytime Day Single fare is "only" priced at £19.20, and then, Contactless fares exist as well, which are accepted on EMR services.
 

MrJeeves

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They may be in the fares data, but I would find it very surprising if anyone sees these available for sale any time soon.
 

Haywain

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It of course only makes sense if other tickets such as Off Peak aren't binned at the same time.
EMR are not the fare setter for the flow, so they have no ability to remove other walk-up fares.
 

Benjwri

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EMR are not the fare setter for the flow, so they have no ability to remove other walk-up fares.
Surely given the show is run by the DfT these days, and trialling on 70mins flex would surely be at the direction of the DfT (given how it worked out on LNER), the DfT can similarly just direct GTR to simplify the fare. I don’t see why the fare setter really makes a difference these days on policy level decisions such as this.
 

yorkie

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I suspect some knowledgeable people have told the DfT that this is a terrible idea.

Or maybe DfT have also realised that LNER's 70-min flex, in place of (Super) Off Peak fares, is deeply unpopular, but I am not sure that the people who make these decisions are interested in hearing anything they don't want to hear, so I won't hold out too much hope of that.
 

Benjwri

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I suspect some knowledgeable people have told the DfT that this is a terrible idea.

Or maybe DfT have also realised that LNER's 70-min flex, in place of (Super) Off Peak fares, is deeply unpopular, but I am not sure that the people who make these decisions are interested in hearing anything they don't want to hear, so I won't hold out too much hope of that.
We can only hope. I am surprised that an expansion is being mooted. The DfT is good at ignoring advice and creating models which say what they want them to, but there are some more results based figures they just can’t ignore or spin in a positive way…
 

yorksrob

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Has there been any "chatter" to suggest that there are plans to remove off-peak fares on this route ?
 

Bletchleyite

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This is actually one where that makes sense and is very beneficial to the passenger.

Really? Luton Airport Parkway to St Pancras really should not have any Advances. It should be contactless with the Project Oval single fare priced two step walk up fare structure - and I'm quite amazed something like this has shown up on it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Has there been any "chatter" to suggest that there are plans to remove off-peak fares on this route ?

I would be very surprised if they were on a Project Oval route.

If we were going to see these on EMR (and I believe we did see suggestions of a middle distance mixed IC and regional TOC doing a trial, which fits EMR) I'd more expect them on Leicester to St Pancras or a longer one - and they aren't there for that, nor Nottingham nor Sheffield.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

We can only hope. I am surprised that an expansion is being mooted.

I'm not surprised. I would be surprised if it didn't go national on IC services within 5 years - but equally it has no place in the Oval area.

Having said all that, if the likes of Northern keep at it with Advances, these would at least get rid of the classic "I bought one for that train and took the earlier one instead and it was the same price" Penalty Fare nonsense.
 
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Benjwri

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I'm not surprised. I would be surprised if it didn't go national on IC services within 5 years - but equally it has no place in the Oval area.
Even the DfT has its masters, whom I suspect will not be happy with how fare simplification turned out financially.
 

Bletchleyite

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I thought that was me misunderstanding what was written in Modern Railways, which was corrected by others. I think what they were actually saying was that the revenue was about the same but from fewer passengers, i.e. it was a classic "pricing off" scenario that reduced overcrowding by charging each person more, which with limited capacity is exactly what LNER wanted, and would certainly be what something like XC wanted too - and EMR if they're going to have to make do with fewer units for a period of time while the 810s are faffed about with and some of the 221s have gone off to Lumo.

What it didn't do (which was one of the original objectives) was grow passenger numbers, but LNER don't really have the capacity to do that at the moment anyway. I think they'd hoped it would allow them to price people onto quieter services and free up capacity for people willing to pay more, and it hasn't really done that if I recall.

Having said that, given that these fares have only actually appeared for Luton Airport Parkway to St Pancras (I can't see them on any other flow, and I tried a few), I wonder if they're actually doing it as more of a TPE style "Airport Advance" thing where the 70 minute flexibility is more for the purposes of if your flight is a bit late or a bit early? I do however think that any Advances at all on that journey (or indeed any other Oval journey) are just silly, because you create a situation where contactless is only cheaper some of the time, and the idea, TfL esque, is that Railcards aside contactless will always* give you the best fare.

* The fact that they've created a new linear fare set on the WCML that has split anomalies aside. Whoever let that happen needs the sack - a quick spreadsheet and adjusting a few fares up a quid or two would have avoided it easily. Though I realise that due to the simple 0930 restriction there are always going to be a couple of trains per day on each Oval route that have a split anomaly because you can do part of it on an Anytime and part on an Off Peak.
 
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OscarH

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Luton Airport Parkway, not Luton.
Sorry yes, I knew it was two Luton "stations" but couldn't remember exactly which two, it's Luton Airport Parkway and Luton Airport (which I think is the DART location), not Luton proper as you say
 

Hadders

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Indeed. That would sort of suggest they're aimed at offering a bit of extra flexibility for air travellers in a different way from what TPE do.
But why do we need 70 minute flexibility when completely flexible contactless can be used (and is cheaper!)
 

Bletchleyite

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But why do we need 70 minute flexibility when completely flexible contactless can be used (and is cheaper!)

Why indeed would you buy the £20 one when an Anytime Day Single is £19.20?

It could well be that the actual fares on those are placeholders and would be adjusted later.

Curious that contactless is cheaper than the paper tickets on this flow, I guess it's pre-Oval so they haven't done the alignment that was done on e.g. the WCML.
 

Richardr

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Very weird, but presumably they can take railcard discounts that contactless can't, and so will be cheaper for many?
 

Vexed

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Very weird, but presumably they can take railcard discounts that contactless can't, and so will be cheaper for many?
Indeed pre-Oval so contactless was done on its own fare scale.

To add to the confusion, using a KeyGo card will allow you to access some railcard discounted contactless fares (on GTR only of course).
 

Bamford

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This is a very bad omen if the 70 minute flex fare is going to be expanded.

I thought that was me misunderstanding what was written in Modern Railways, which was corrected by others. I think what they were actually saying was that the revenue was about the same but from fewer passengers, i.e. it was a classic "pricing off" scenario that reduced overcrowding by charging each person more, which with limited capacity is exactly what LNER wanted, and would certainly be what something like XC wanted too - and EMR if they're going to have to make do with fewer units for a period of time while the 810s are faffed about with and some of the 221s have gone off to Lumo.

What it didn't do (which was one of the original objectives) was grow passenger numbers, but LNER don't really have the capacity to do that at the moment anyway. I think they'd hoped it would allow them to price people onto quieter services and free up capacity for people willing to pay more, and it hasn't really done that if I recall.

Having said that, given that these fares have only actually appeared for Luton Airport Parkway to St Pancras (I can't see them on any other flow, and I tried a few), I wonder if they're actually doing it as more of a TPE style "Airport Advance" thing where the 70 minute flexibility is more for the purposes of if your flight is a bit late or a bit early? I do however think that any Advances at all on that journey (or indeed any other Oval journey) are just silly, because you create a situation where contactless is only cheaper some of the time, and the idea, TfL esque, is that Railcards aside contactless will always* give you the best fare.

* The fact that they've created a new linear fare set on the WCML that has split anomalies aside. Whoever let that happen needs the sack - a quick spreadsheet and adjusting a few fares up a quid or two would have avoided it easily. Though I realise that due to the simple 0930 restriction there are always going to be a couple of trains per day on each Oval route that have a split anomaly because you can do part of it on an Anytime and part on an Off Peak.
This has got better good news, with it less likely to be expanded. How do we.go about getting it scrapped on LNER. If the revenue is the same, surely better to have more customers served, particularly from a taxpayer perspective as the railways are delivering greater benefits for the same costs.
 

modernrail

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This is a very bad omen if the 70 minute flex fare is going to be expanded.


This has got better good news, with it less likely to be expanded. How do we.go about getting it scrapped on LNER. If the revenue is the same, surely better to have more customers served, particularly from a taxpayer perspective as the railways are delivering greater benefits for the same costs.
Exactly. Do we actually know what the loadings are on LNER are across the whole of the day? It is a bit difficult to have a proper debate on the point if we don’t.

For instance, if off peak services are busy but peak ones not, it might be that the off peaks are busy partly because those people won’t pay peak fares. If there is an opportunity to redistribute loadings across the day, that then removes the need for ‘pricing off’ off peak services.

Pricing off is in general a terrible idea as it worsens the reputation of the railway and creates an elitist product that is less accessible to those with lower ability to pay higher fares. Yet they have still subsidised the creation of that capacity through their paying of tax after no doubt working hard to earn income.
 
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