Emergency Brake?

[jonty14]

Anyone else prefer the word "guard" to "OBM"?

 

[notadriver]

In the Javelins case they can't be called guards as they aren't safety critical.

 

[MattRobinson]

They could be called stewards? Or conductors?

 

[ainsworth74]

Train Managers?

 

[Starmill]

In the Javelins case they can't be called guards as they aren't safety critical.

What does this mean? I'm intrigued!

 

[krus_aragon]

What does this mean? I'm intrigued!

Speaking only as a layman, it means that the job description 'guard' involves, for example, protecting the rear of the train with detonators in the event of a breakdown. If they're not trained and paid to do those jobs, then they can't officially be called guards.

Actual guards will be along in a moment to give a fuller answer.

 

[spacehopper]

HS1 is DOO. The OBM is not a safety critical role they are not trained or competent in the role of the "guard".

Despite 88 traincrew agreement and privitisation and fancy job titles the role of the "guard" is still used in RGS/rulebook etc.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Funnily enough, when something goes wrong (or potentially has), the first thing on the guards / drivers mind is not "I'd better make an announcement", it's usually "I'd better sort this out".

Agree 100%. Aviation pilots follow the follwing rule-Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

If there's an emergency brake application my priority is to get to a cab so I can speak to the driver discretely, this also gives me the chance to open a window to see what's going on.

 

[snail]

Speaking only as a layman, it means that the job description 'guard' involves, for example, protecting the rear of the train with detonators in the event of a breakdown. If they're not trained and paid to do those jobs, then they can't officially be called guards.

Responding only as a layman, I don't care about the official title, to me they will always be 'guards'.

To the common person it's a generic term, just like when I 'Hoover' the floor at home with the Dyson.

 

[TUC]

*BANG*

"Ladies and gentlemen, I would just like to apologise for the loud noise. We've just hit a pheasant."

Why should there be an announcement? What if nothing of any consequence had happened, such as the driver missing the vigilence?

O L Leigh

Basic courtesy to passengers who might have been slightly around as the OP describes?

 

[TGV]

The TGV uses those as well

No they don't. We once trial fitted a TGV-R with an eddy-current brake as a experiment for use on the AGV (before it's production), but even that never entered service on the new automotrice yet.

Velaro D has an eddy current brake.

On topic, while I'm here, I also think that if the stop was as fierce and unexpected as described, then an announcement by the driver or TM wouldn't have been a bad idea, even if it's something as simple as a vigilance blow-out.

 

[Mintona]

Speaking only as a layman, it means that the job description 'guard' involves, for example, protecting the rear of the train with detonators in the event of a breakdown. If they're not trained and paid to do those jobs, then they can't officially be called guards.

Actual guards will be along in a moment to give a fuller answer.

Except HS1 OBMs are trained in how to protect the line in case of emergency, and hold full PTS. Only thing they don't do is ding ding the doors.

 

[southerner2174]

I too would expect there to be an announcement if there was a fast brake or a sudden stop. Last week my train juddered away from several stations, as something was going on that caused us to lose interlock, meaning the train stopped taking power. Announcements were made to say sorry for the jolt. Of course this was quite a violent jolt forward rather than an emergency brake, but it depends on the context. If I knew an emergency brake was about to happen in advance (such as passing a signal at danger) then of course an announcement would be made to forewarn people, but there are very few cases in which you can predict in advance that the emergency brake is going to come on before it happens!

Last time I had to use the emergency brake was the first time I had to use it on an actual train rather than in the simulator and I had to use it because the train didnt perform as I expected and if I hadnt used it I would have sailed right throught the station I was expected to stop at, when the train did stop I was halfway in the platform and I then rolled up to the stop mark, no offence to any passenger but I was concentrating on not opening up the doors halfway down the platform and making an operational error.
Yes in hindsight I could have made an apology but do you really want to know the train decided to do what it wanted rather than what I wanted it to do, sometimes its better not to say the truth because unless you have a licence to drive 100 tonnes of metal you really have no idea what its like.

Safety above comfort comes first!!!!!!!!!

 

[Starmill]

Yes in hindsight I could have made an apology but do you really want to know the train decided to do what it wanted rather than what I wanted it to do, sometimes its better not to say the truth because unless you have a licence to drive 100 tonnes of metal you really have no idea what its like.

Safety above comfort comes first!!!!!!!!!

No, you're right; we don't. But I'd really love to!

 

[ChristopherJ]

I was on a train yesterday that had to make a 'mergency stop.

Driver of an express train following a stopper in to London on yellow cautions, comes round a bend on the approach to a station only to discover that the station starter signal is at red danger because said train in front had just departed the station and still occupying the section.

Driver slams the anchors on, luckily going slow enough that TPWS didn't activate so we don't have a 2 minute delay, lots of WSP activity but eventually come up in a heap about 2 carriages away from said offending signal.

Lots of passengers on the platform of station starting to push the door buttons trying to get on but oblivious that it's not due to stop.

Once signal cleared, power again and away we go.

---

I have also experienced an emergency stop at 300km/h from a TGV, it's not all that dramatic. It's the just harder-than-usual jolt at the end that signifies there's been a desperate need to drop the lot on the quick.

 

[Flamingo]

I'll usually know it's an emergency stop as we are stopping somewhere I wouldn't expect it to stop, rather than the violence of the stop itself. Some drivers are smoother stopping than others, just because one is thrown off one's feet doesn't mean it's an emergency stop!

 

[notadriver]

I was on a train yesterday that had to make a 'mergency stop.

Driver of an express train following a stopper in to London on yellow cautions, comes round a bend on the approach to a station only to discover that the station starter signal is at red danger because said train in front had just departed the station and still occupying the section.

Driver slams the anchors on, luckily going slow enough that TPWS didn't activate so we don't have a 2 minute delay, lots of WSP activity but eventually come up in a heap about 2 carriages away from said offending signal.

Lots of passengers on the platform of station starting to push the door buttons trying to get on but oblivious that it's not due to stop.

Once signal cleared, power again and away we go.

---

I have also experienced an emergency stop at 300km/h from a TGV, it's not all that dramatic. It's the just harder-than-usual jolt at the end that signifies there's been a desperate need to drop the lot on the quick.

How did you know that the signal at the station was at danger ?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'd question that too, I mean the driver wouldnt have been driving very defensively at all if he isnt slowing down until he sees a red then slamming it into emergency. Especially at this time of year.

 

[tsr]

I'd question that too, I mean the driver wouldnt have been driving very defensively at all if he isnt slowing down until he sees a red then slamming it into emergency. Especially at this time of year.

It's not unheard of. I had an almost identical report from an enthusiast friend of very similar driver behaviour at a similar-sounding London location. I would've thought it to be the same incident, had there not been a discrepancy in the date.

You can see signals out of passenger windows at many locations, even if the train is on only a very slight curve.

It may not be good driving, but it happens!

 

[ChristopherJ]

How did you know that the signal at the station was at danger ?

Because I could see the signal!

The driver was taking power around a bend, came in to view of the station at I'd imagine around 30mph, saw the signal was on, dropped the lot to avoid TPWS intervention.

I'd like to keep this a bare minimum to avoid dropping anyone in it but it was a Dutch TOC on a new (barely 2 year old) EMU train with Westcode brakes, coming from an airport, on the approach to the final station of a big terminal station.

I've driven trains with Westcode brakes so I naturally know (from experience) what Step 1/2/3/Emergency feels like! Cherry Picker I assume from your posts you are a Chiltern driver, so you should know what I mean if you sign 168s! Proper nice braking system on that loco in your avatar - the PBL system.

 

[notadriver]

So you're a train driver? Nice. Well I don't know much about Dutch railway systems. But I do know they use ATB as the train protection system. TPWS is only used in Britain.

 

[A-driver]

Because I could see the signal!

The driver was taking power around a bend, came in to view of the station at I'd imagine around 30mph, saw the signal was on, dropped the lot to avoid TPWS intervention.

I'd like to keep this a bare minimum to avoid dropping anyone in it but it was a Dutch TOC on a new (barely 2 year old) EMU train with Westcode brakes, coming from an airport, on the approach to the final station of a big terminal station.

I've driven trains with Westcode brakes so I naturally know (from experience) what Step 1/2/3/Emergency feels like! Cherry Picker I assume from your posts you are a Chiltern driver, so you should know what I mean if you sign 168s! Proper nice braking system on that loco in your avatar - the PBL system.

And did you also see that the previous signal was deffinately single yellow? And that it was deffinately the emergency brake used, not just step 2/3? On units like 317s there is very little difference in brake force between step 3 and emerg.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Because I could see the signal!

The driver was taking power around a bend, came in to view of the station at I'd imagine around 30mph, saw the signal was on, dropped the lot to avoid TPWS intervention.

I'd like to keep this a bare minimum to avoid dropping anyone in it but it was a Dutch TOC on a new (barely 2 year old) EMU train with Westcode brakes, coming from an airport, on the approach to the final station of a big terminal station.

Most TOCs would consider taking power (unless it was a very small amount indeed) towards a red to be a blatant infringement of their PDP. Furthermore on all rolling stock that I am aware of an emergency brake application whether initiated by driver or TPWS/AWS/DSD/DVD etc. will cause a 2 min timeout.

To the best of my knowledge no trains have been built with westcode brakes since the 1990s. Almost all 'new' rolling stock is built with rheostatic & regenerative braking systems. What class of unit was this exactly?

 

[D1009]

Maybe, when the brake is put into emergency there should be an automated announcement telling people to brace.

I think that's a very good idea, not telling people to brace, but just saying something like "emergency brake in progress" repeated continuously. Fom 60 years of rail travel I have had many instances of emergency brake applications for reasons no more dramatic than a parted brake pipe. I therefore know what it feels like, and if the rate of deceleration doesn't vary, the chances are when you come to a final stop there is going to be a jolt, which you would not normally get. If there was an automated announcement during the initial deceleration, at least people would be prepared for that, and someone serving coffee from a trolley or buffet could avoid a mess or a potential scalding.

 

[tsr]

If there was an automated announcement during the initial deceleration, at least people would be prepared for that, and someone serving coffee from a trolley or buffet could avoid a mess or a potential scalding.

Indeed, I have heard it said that during recent (relatively) rail incidents in the UK and the rest of Europe, the majority of injuries have been burns from very hot drinks. If there was an announcement to "Prepare for a sudden stop", perhaps repeated once or twice, it might be possible to add to it by saying "Secure hot refreshments and loose items", if there is time. Even an emergency stop for a false alarm or a technical issue can cause people to panic and not think about what they are holding/drinking. During a stop from any speed above 100mph, there might be time to make such an announcement.

Some trams (e.g. the CR4000s in Croydon) and river-buses (e.g. Hurricane, operated by KPMGTC) have similar automated announcements in locations or in situations where they are likely to rapidly accelerate or decelerate.

 

[TDK]

Maybe, when the brake is put into emergency there should be an automated announcement telling people to brace.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

Don't be rediculous the brake effect on a train is no where near the G force in a car or a bus - Brace because of an EBA what ever next
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was on a train yesterday that had to make a 'mergency stop.

Driver of an express train following a stopper in to London on yellow cautions, comes round a bend on the approach to a station only to discover that the station starter signal is at red danger because said train in front had just departed the station and still occupying the section.

Driver slams the anchors on, luckily going slow enough that TPWS didn't activate so we don't have a 2 minute delay, lots of WSP activity but eventually come up in a heap about 2 carriages away from said offending signal.

Lots of passengers on the platform of station starting to push the door buttons trying to get on but oblivious that it's not due to stop.

Once signal cleared, power again and away we go.

---

I have also experienced an emergency stop at 300km/h from a TGV, it's not all that dramatic. It's the just harder-than-usual jolt at the end that signifies there's been a desperate need to drop the lot on the quick.

Well, well, well you certainly know a very little about driving trains fella, if the train was doing 30mph and stopped 2 coaches from the signal this signal must be obscured, then again you say in a later post you could see it? I think you may be making up some of this to be fair! And you know the signal is fitted with TPWS OSS do you? Well if the driver was doing 30mph they would not have to slam the anchors on to avoid a TPWS brake demand as nearly all OSS approaching red signlas are set to a speed a lot quicker than 30mph!

Why were there lots of passengers trying to get on when a stopper had just left the station as you quoted?

Sorry dude but I don't believe you at all
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because I could see the signal!

The driver was taking power around a bend, came in to view of the station at I'd imagine around 30mph, saw the signal was on, dropped the lot to avoid TPWS intervention.

I'd like to keep this a bare minimum to avoid dropping anyone in it but it was a Dutch TOC on a new (barely 2 year old) EMU train with Westcode brakes, coming from an airport, on the approach to the final station of a big terminal station.

I've driven trains with Westcode brakes so I naturally know (from experience) what Step 1/2/3/Emergency feels like! Cherry Picker I assume from your posts you are a Chiltern driver, so you should know what I mean if you sign 168s! Proper nice braking system on that loco in your avatar - the PBL system.

So you have driven 168's and class 67's for real have you or do you dabble with a simulator?? What trains have you driven with westcode brakes and where? If you was a driver you certainly wouldn't be trying to impress the readers of this forum and this is what this looks like to me!

 

[tsr]

Don't be rediculous the brake effect on a train is no where near the G force in a car or a bus - Brace because of an EBA what ever next

In a car (and some buses/coaches), you are secured by a seatbelt (if your vehicle is fitted with them, and if you're not breaking the law*), plus you can probably react quicker to the cues in the moments before and during the start of an emergency stop.

*Pedants will point out the medical reasons exclusion clause.

 

[CC 72100]

Sorry dude but I don't believe you at all
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So you have driven 168's and class 67's for real have you or do you dabble with a simulator?? What trains have you driven with westcode brakes and where? If you was a driver you certainly wouldn't be trying to impress the readers of this forum and this is what this looks like to me!

I think the fact that said user is now banned may suggest that not all he was saying was true. Your suspicions and smelling a rat were probably justified!

 

[O L Leigh]

Why all the fuss? I've gone for the E brake on a number of occasions and never had a punter come up and complain about the rough stop, never mind a fall or injury. In fact, I doubt many people would have even noticed unless I was sat in a location for an unusually long period of time. The only time I would use the PA is if an E brake application means I pull up at a booked stopping point with the train not yet fully into the platform, and only then to tell folk not to attempt to leave the train until I've had a chance to draw forward to the correct point on the platform.

O L Leigh

 

[A-driver]

I quite agree-I doubt am emergency brake application would cause any drink to spill or people to fall over etc-most people feel the deceleration any way so hold onto something.

I have made e brake applications before and it certainly hasn't spilt my cup of tea in the front and to be honest on many trains the e brake isn't much stronger than using step 3 to stop which we do from time to time. Infact on non 12%g modified units such as 313s the e brake dosnt give any extra brake force to full service.