EM Trains Grand National Services

[Leyland155]

Hi all, I was just wondering if East Midlands Trains are strengthening any services with a Class 222 for the Grand National tomorrow. Unless I'm mistaken, I think they have been known to do this in previous years. Many thanks for any info!

 

[Starmill]

Not much information has been provided to anyone about Grand National timetable changes.

Northern are running an additional 1947 to Earlestown, 2104 to Manchester Vic, 2115 to St Helens Central and 2250 to St Helens Central.

Virgin Trains are running an additional 1918 for Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford and London Euston.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

In the past a 222 has generally been used instead of the booked 158(s) west of Nottingham with through passengers having to change there. So best way to check would be an enquiry on NRE for services between (say) Peterborough and Liverpool (and v-v): any EMT service requiring such a change will almost certainly be a 222 between Nottingham and Liverpool.

 

[Starmill]

The 1852 from Liverpool Lime Street is amended to run non-stop to Manchester Oxford Road. It normally only runs as far as Nottingham anyway though.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The 1852 from Liverpool Lime Street is amended to run non-stop to Manchester Oxford Road. It normally only runs as far as Nottingham anyway though.

That's more likely to be to deal with an expected passenger load management issue. EMT 222s have SDO and the appropriate platform marker boards were installed at those stations that EMT serve along the CLC route meaning a 7-car 222 can stop at the shorter platforms. Judging by past experience if a 222 is used it will be on the 1152 and 1752 departures from Lime Street arriving on the appropriate inbound workings. This is purely an educated guess, I have absolutely no inside information to suggest it will actually happen.

 

[Starmill]

The 0847 from Nottingham is also to run non-stop from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street. An informed source suggests this is to be a 222.

 

[6Gman]

That's more likely to be to deal with an expected passenger load management issue. EMT 222s have SDO and the appropriate platform marker boards were installed at those stations that EMT serve along the CLC route meaning a 7-car 222 can stop at the shorter platforms. Judging by past experience if a 222 is used it will be on the 1152 and 1752 departures from Lime Street arriving on the appropriate inbound workings. This is purely an educated guess, I have absolutely no inside information to suggest it will actually happen.

Don't see the point of strengthening the 1752 since the National doesn't start until 1715!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Don't see the point of strengthening the 1752 since the National doesn't start until 1715!

In which case I stand corrected and Starmill has correctly identified the 1852 as a likely 222 operation.

 

[Leyland155]

Thank you all for the replies, hopefully I'll be able to travel on one of the services suggested. If for some reason a 158 turns up instead, I wouldn't mind making a day trip to Liverpool anyway Presumably the first class on the 222's is declassified?

 

[Bevan Price]

The 0847 from Nottingham is also to run non-stop from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street. An informed source suggests this is to be a 222.

No splitting of Norwich/Liverpool services at Nottingham this year according to RTT. Another source hints that at least one 6 coach dmu formation will be in use north of Nottingham. That would hold many more passenger than any 222.

 

[Leyland155]

No splitting of Norwich/Liverpool services at Nottingham this year according to RTT. Another source hints that at least one 6 coach dmu formation will be in use north of Nottingham. That would hold many more passenger than any 222.

Thanks for the info. As the services aren't being split at Nottingham, does this indicate that a 222 is not allocated? I'm not sure if class 222's are permitted to run between Nottingham and Norwich. If they cannot, it obviously means that they won't be forming the service to Liverpool.

 

[jon0844]

Don't see the point of strengthening the 1752 since the National doesn't start until 1715!

My horse will likely fall at 1716, so getting the 1752 sounds doable.

 

[LowLevel]

The 0847/1547 Nottingham to Liverpool and 1152/1852 returns are 6 car 158s today and not calling at stations from Oxford Road to Lime Street exclusive due to being overlength for all of the platforms. They are still running via Widnes however. No 222 this year.

Wish I'd noticed this earlier as we've known internally for a while.

 

[50039]

There’s something just left Victoria headed for Runcorn on RTT - presumably this is a special of some kind?

 

[matt]

If you mean London Victoria then it is the Belmond British Pullman.

 

[50039]

If you mean London Victoria then it is the Belmond British Pullman.

Thanks

 

[MCSHF007]

The 0847/1547 Nottingham to Liverpool and 1152/1852 returns are 6 car 158s today and not calling at stations from Oxford Road to Lime Street exclusive due to being overlength for all of the platforms. They are still running via Widnes however. No 222 this year.

Wish I'd noticed this earlier as we've known internally for a while.

Do you know whether the 20:52 ex Liverpool is booked 2 or 4 cars today?

 

[Bovverboy]

The 0847/1547 Nottingham to Liverpool and 1152/1852 returns are 6 car 158s today and not calling at stations from Oxford Road to Lime Street exclusive due to being overlength for all of the platforms. They are still running via Widnes however. No 222 this year.

Excuse my ignorance, won't you, folks, but you know how double 350s on northbound Manchester - Scotland services have the door buttons to the rear unit switched out when calling at Oxford Road, can the same not be done in respect of the door buttons to the third unit in the above 6-car sets?
It's a joke, anyway, to suggest that a 6-car 158 wouldn't fit the platforms at Warrington Central and Liverpool South Parkway. Don't the (slightly longer) 6-car 185s do that?

 

[LowLevel]

Do you know whether the 20:52 ex Liverpool is booked 2 or 4 cars today?

At the moment 158774 and 158810 are allocated.

 

[LowLevel]

Excuse my ignorance, won't you, folks, but you know how double 350s on northbound Manchester - Scotland services have the door buttons to the rear unit switched out when calling at Oxford Road, can the same not be done in respect of the door buttons to the third unit in the above 6-car sets?
It's a joke, anyway, to suggest that a 6-car 158 wouldn't fit the platforms at Warrington Central and Liverpool South Parkway. Don't the (slightly longer) 6-car 185s do that?

It doesn't work on class 158s. On a 185 isolating the door controls leaves the emergency exit handles still available. On a 158 if you isolate the doors it won't work.

And no it isn't a joke, Warrington and Liverpool S Parkway are 5 car platforms and Widnes is 4 car for class 158.

 

[Bovverboy]

It doesn't work on class 158s. On a 185 isolating the door controls leaves the emergency exit handles still available. On a 158 if you isolate the doors it won't work.

And no it isn't a joke, Warrington and Liverpool S Parkway are 5 car platforms and Widnes is 4 car for class 158.

So are you saying that if a double 185 calls at Warrington Central or Liverpool South Parkway (which they do, daily) the door buttons to the rear unit have to be switched out?

 

[LowLevel]

So are you saying that if a double 185 calls at Warrington Central or Liverpool South Parkway (which they do, daily) the door buttons to the rear unit have to be switched out?

I believe they're manually isolated by the conductor yes. There was a period where the long sets had to have either the back end locked out or not to call orders until the method of operarion was approved. I don't work on them though. I do however work class 158s with tedious regularity so I can give you the chapter and verse on those.

 

[MCSHF007]

At the moment 158774 and 158810 are allocated.

Many thanks - might be worth doing then!

 

[Starmill]

So are you saying that if a double 185 calls at Warrington Central or Liverpool South Parkway (which they do, daily) the door buttons to the rear unit have to be switched out?

I have observed this at Liverpool South Parkway, Chinley, Dore and Meadowhall. I don't know about Warrington Central because it has those short sections that are very very narrow, but I have heard that they do keep the doors locked sometimes. I don't know.

I have boarded a 6 car 185 that was starting at at Liverpool South Parkway and walked through into the rear coach which was off the platform. Very odd.

 

[bunnahabhain]

The 0847 from Nottingham is also to run non-stop from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street. An informed source suggests this is to be a 222.

Oui, its the one I believe is

I have observed this at Liverpool South Parkway, Chinley, Dore and Meadowhall. I don't know about Warrington Central because it has those short sections that are very very narrow, but I have heard that they do keep the doors locked sometimes. I don't know.

I have boarded a 6 car 185 that was starting at at Liverpool South Parkway and walked through into the rear coach which was off the platform. Very odd.

The short sections are not part of the platform and aren't to be used. I suspect they stem from the days when slam door DMUs operated on that route, I know stories exist of one peak time train that had to draw forward to enable passengers to alight from the rearmost vehicles. The only way to keep the train fully in use would be to operate it local door from the front, and then run along the outside opening and then closing each door manually, that would probably lead to dwell times of approximately 3-4 minutes so wouldn't be acceptable.

The reason the 222 hasn't been sent is due to it falling foul of the rules of timetabling services. It needs to be double manned (2 x Drivers and Guards), and it needs 90 second dwell times minimum at each stop, which would put it overtime at stops between Manchester and Liverpool, it also needs a 7 minute dwell time at Sheffield to enable the driver to change ends, which busts the path for the service. That's why it hasn't operated for the past couple of years.

 

[Leyland155]

The 0847/1547 Nottingham to Liverpool and 1152/1852 returns are 6 car 158s today and not calling at stations from Oxford Road to Lime Street exclusive due to being overlength for all of the platforms. They are still running via Widnes however. No 222 this year.

Wish I'd noticed this earlier as we've known internally for a while.

Oui, its the one I believe is

The short sections are not part of the platform and aren't to be used. I suspect they stem from the days when slam door DMUs operated on that route, I know stories exist of one peak time train that had to draw forward to enable passengers to alight from the rearmost vehicles. The only way to keep the train fully in use would be to operate it local door from the front, and then run along the outside opening and then closing each door manually, that would probably lead to dwell times of approximately 3-4 minutes so wouldn't be acceptable.

The reason the 222 hasn't been sent is due to it falling foul of the rules of timetabling services. It needs to be double manned (2 x Drivers and Guards), and it needs 90 second dwell times minimum at each stop, which would put it overtime at stops between Manchester and Liverpool, it also needs a 7 minute dwell time at Sheffield to enable the driver to change ends, which busts the path for the service. That's why it hasn't operated for the past couple of years.

Thank you both for the replies. Its a shame that a 222 hasn't run, but if it causes timetable issues then I suppose it is in the best interest of passengers to simply run an enhanced 158 service.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I'd much prefer a HST to run as an additional, main stations only back from Liverpool as an advertised relief to take the pressure off the normal services somewhat.

 

[LowLevel]

Thank you both for the replies. Its a shame that a 222 hasn't run, but if it causes timetable issues then I suppose it is in the best interest of passengers to simply run an enhanced 158 service.

The 6-158 where available will give far more capacity than the 222 as well - a 7 car 222 has about 340 seats and a 6 car class 158 has in the region of 450 seats.

 

[M60lad]

Considering some services yesterday were formed of 3x158s (6 coach units) where did the extra 158 for this service come from and what services if any were short formed because of this?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Considering some services yesterday were formed of 3x158s (6 coach units) where did the extra 158 for this service come from and what services if any were short formed because of this?

Various local services were running 1 vice 2 car to free up the extra units. Also potentially maintenance schedules were adjusted around it to free up an extra unit or two. It only required four extra vehicles so not hugely difficult to source.