Elizabeth line workers vote to take strike action

[Cross City]

Interestingly there's not a single mention of any kind about this on the TFL website at all, or on any major news sites since it was announced just before Christmas.


Nothing about the level of service expected or anything.

 

[mr_moo]

As busy as it was this time a year ago, I'd wager

Fair point, but I've got used to the EL conveniance now! Grr...
(And the central line is very squeely on the Eastern part of that)

 

[Horizon22]

Interestingly there's not a single mention of any kind about this on the TFL website at all, or on any major news sites since it was announced just before Christmas.


Nothing about the level of service expected or anything.

There’s still time for a negotiation which is perhaps what TfL are holding out for.

 

[Cross City]

There’s still time for a negotiation which is perhaps what TfL are holding out for.

This what I guessed the case was, but I'm still surprised they haven't at least referenced it on their strike page saying there may be problems that day.

 

[Goldfish62]

I reckon a figure close or exactly to what MTR Elizabeth Line staff got would be enough to sort this out without strike action.

But given that RfL staff's ultimate employer is TfL that would be out of kilter with the 4% that has been offered to TfL staff in general.

 

[matt_world2004]

There's going to be a reduced service in the west and Eastern branches on the 12th January. 2tph Heathrow and 2 reading

 

[Horizon22]

There's going to be a reduced service in the west and Eastern branches on the 12th January. 2tph Heathrow and 2 reading

Not quite - 2tph Heathrow, 2tph Reading, 2tph Maidenhead and 8tph Shenfield - Liverpool Street is the proposed plan. Interestingly, the Maidenhead services are calling all stations - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:F35931/2023-01-12/detailed

There's action "short of a strike" post-13 January which might cause short notice issues.

 

[hkstudent]

Not quite - 2tph Heathrow, 2tph Reading, 2tph Maidenhead and 8tph Shenfield - Liverpool Street is the proposed plan. Interestingly, the Maidenhead services are calling all stations - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:F35931/2023-01-12/detailed

There's action "short of a strike" post-13 January which might cause short notice issues.

Not the worst. But surely lacking through service would be a bit of an issue again at Paddington and Liverpool Street

 

[Horizon22]

Not the worst. But surely lacking through service would be a bit of an issue again at Paddington and Liverpool Street

Well of course - but if the RfLI signallers are on strike, that’s somewhat the point.

 

[theking]

Funny how they found the money for an RPI increase for MTR drivers just before the line fully opened.......

 

[Goldfish62]

Funny how they found the money for an RPI increase for MTR drivers just before the line fully opened.......

That's a decision for MTR. Nothing to do with TfL.

 

[theking]

Don't be so naive, MTR work under a contract from TFL.

 

[Goldfish62]

Don't be so naive, MTR work under a contract from TFL.

I used to work for TfL managing contracts so thank you for your considered opinion, but I know what I'm talking about and you clearly don't.

 

[theking]

So TFL the owner wouldn't have had any discussions with MTR about the possibility of poor industrial relations or a strike right before the opening of its massively delayed over budget biggest infrastructure project in decades.

My mistake.

 

[Goldfish62]

So TFL the owner wouldn't have had any discussions with MTR about the possibility of poor industrial relations or a strike right before the opening of its massively delayed over budget biggest infrastructure project in decades.

My mistake.

It would go something along the lines of, "Just sort it out. And a reminder of the contractual penalties and reputational damage if you don't."

To instruct MTR specifically to make a generous pay award would be madness. It would import financial liability for years to come. It just wouldn't happen. You can choose to believe me or not, I really don't care either way.

 

[zwk500]

So TFL the owner wouldn't have had any discussions with MTR about the possibility of poor industrial relations or a strike right before the opening of its massively delayed over budget biggest infrastructure project in decades.

My mistake.

The overwhelming majority of management contracts would just see TfL saying 'We agreed on this fee to maintain x level of service. What you pay your people to do that isn't our problem.' The DfT contracts are actually quite unusual in the level of control they have.
If TfL want to start setting pay levels they'd either operate it directly or include it in the contract spec.

 

[Thirteen]

It would go something along the lines of, "Just sort it out. And a reminder of the contractual penalties and reputational damage if you don't."

To instruct MTR specifically to make a generous pay award would be madness. It would import financial liability for years to come. It just wouldn't happen. You can choose to believe me or not, I really don't care either way.

Also, ARL which operates London Overground was affected by strikes which I think is either resolved or getting there so clearly TfL aren't involved with all pay increases.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2023 ==

The overwhelming majority of management contracts would just see TfL saying 'We agreed on this fee to maintain x level of service. What you pay your people to do that isn't our problem.' The DfT contracts are actually quite unusual in the level of control they have.
If TfL want to start setting pay levels they'd either operate it directly or include it in the contract spec.

If the DfT contracts were similar to the TfL ones for DLR, Trams, Elizabeth Line and London Overground, we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

[Goldfish62]

If the DfT contracts were similar to the TfL ones for DLR, Trams, Elizabeth Line and London Overground, we wouldn't be in this mess.

And the largest public transport mode in London, Buses.

 

[matt_world2004]

Tfl contracts have built in inflation uplifts which when inflation is 10-11% means tfl has to pay a huge amount more to mtr and lo

But it also means operators have wiggle room to pay 10-11% pay rises when inflation is that high.

 

[Goldfish62]

Tfl contracts have built in inflation uplifts which when inflation is 10-11% means tfl has to pay a huge amount more to mtr and lo

But it also means operators have wiggle room to pay 10-11% pay rises when inflation is that high.

Yes, CPA (contract price adjustment). It's not as simple as a straight CPI increase, but yes your point is correct that there's an annual price adjustment.

It also depends when the anniversary date of the increase is. If the anniversary date is say May then the adjustment will be based on price indices at that time, not whatever inflation may have been earlier in the year. Therefore it would only be 10-11% if that was the CPI rate in May.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"The Elizabeth Line itself is now bringing in large extra passenger revenue for TfL and is underspent on its budget so there really ought to be room for some movement on pay."

It will be interesting to see what happens as the Elizabeth line has been shielded from the NR and LU strikes so far (At least in the central section)

That's funny: I could swear I read stories of the Elizabeth Line being £3 billion or more over budget and several years late, giving TfL a major funding headache.
It's also taken years to negotiate loans to complete the project, along with fare rises and other limits of TfL spending.
It's about as valid as the union claim that the TOC employers made £500 million in profit during Covid so there should be something for the staff, while the underlying railway industry is bankrupt.

 

[KGX]

That's funny: I could swear I read stories of the Elizabeth Line being £3 billion or more over budget and several years late, giving TfL a major funding headache.
It's also taken years to negotiate loans to complete the project, along with fare rises and other limits of TfL spending.
It's about as valid as the union claim that the TOC employers made £500 million in profit during Covid so there should be something for the staff, while the underlying railway industry is bankrupt.

Yes, ridiculous state of affairs here. Taking people for fools. This lavish line has cost billions. Taxpayers can not afford all of this in the current situation. Not many people can afford to pay more tax to fund all these demands, everywhere.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes, ridiculous state of affairs here. Taking people for fools. This lavish line has cost billions. Taxpayers can not afford all of this in the current situation. Not many people can afford to pay more tax to fund all these demands, everywhere.

So what should they have done, stopped building it when it was half completed?
The problem with that is quite often that proves more expensive than carrying on.

 

[Thirteen]

So what should they have done, stopped building it when it was half completed?
The problem with that is quite often that proves more expensive than carrying on.

It's like those who go on the likes of LBC and Jeremy Vine and say HS2 should be cancelled now when the cost to cancel would be more than completing it.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's like those who go on the likes of LBC and Jeremy Vine and say HS2 should be cancelled now when the cost to cancel would be more than completing it.

The crux of the matter is that some people consider any spending on large infrastructure projects is a waste of money and the country's infrastructure should be ossified in its current state forever.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, ridiculous state of affairs here. Taking people for fools. This lavish line has cost billions. Taxpayers can not afford all of this in the current situation. Not many people can afford to pay more tax to fund all these demands, everywhere.

I think it is badly worded; it is above expectations in terms of budget for 2022 since opening.

 

[Thirteen]

I think it is badly worded; it is above expectations in terms of budget for 2022 since opening.

I believe because of the pandemic, TfL revised their passenger numbers and revenue downward for the Elizabeth Line. It's exceeded expectations but whether that's enough for a surplus in terms of a bigger pay rise for RfLI, I'm not sure.

I expect this dispute will be resolved sooner than what's happening elsewhere.

 

[Horizon22]

I believe because of the pandemic, TfL revised their passenger numbers and revenue downward for the Elizabeth Line. It's exceeded expectations but whether that's enough for a surplus in terms of a bigger pay rise for RfLI, I'm not sure.

I expect this dispute will be resolved sooner than what's happening elsewhere.

Yes that's probably correct. It also hasn't seen a proportional decrease in Underground journeys which means it is either a) wholly new trips or b) leeching off other NR lines (Thameslink & Southeastern probably).

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Which means a full loaded Southeastern is expected on North Kent Line, after frequency reduction in Dec 22 timetable, for taking tons of Abbey Wood and Woolwich passengers.

But what frequency reduction is there?

There is still 6tph as there was in May.

 

[hkstudent]

Yes that's probably correct. It also hasn't seen a proportional decrease in Underground journeys which means it is either a) wholly new trips or b) leeching off other NR lines (Thameslink & Southeastern probably).

For EL journeys, quite a lot are new induced journey as the travel pattern for leisure has been changed a lot.