Electronic Cigarettes on trains

[jon0844]

Yes. Really.

 

[transmanche]

Oh come on...really? :roll:

You'd be surprised...

 

[rdeez]

You've witnessed this personally? Someone puffing 'smoke' around, LED light on their e-cig neatly concealed, confronted by a concerned passenger / railway employee only to smugly reveal the truth?

 

[jon0844]

Yes. Why do you believe some people wouldn't wish to wind others up? People do it all the time, in a variety of different ways.

 

[rdeez]

Yes. Why do you believe some people wouldn't wish to wind others up? People do it all the time, in a variety of different ways.

How often would you say you've seen this happen (not including the same person on multiple occasions)?

I don't disbelieve there is someone out there who would do it. What raised eyebrows was the "fair few" part. It seems to me remarkably cynical to take a couple of instances (I'm assuming you don't see this happening daily, but correct me if I assume wrongly) and extrapolate that. Granted there's no standard definition of how many "a fair few" is, but it makes it sound larger and worse than I suspect the reality to be.

I travel by rail and bus almost daily and have for years and I can honestly say that the overwhelming majority of people I see act in a generally respectful manner. Yes I've seen some complete idiots, but you expect that in every part of life. The vast majority seek to avoid conflict, not encourage it.

I just think there's a depressing 'glass half empty' attitude when it comes to discussions of things like this.

 

[IanXC]

Coming back to the original question:

I know this has been discussed before but I think there have been some changes recently in the rules and I was wondering what are the rules on using Electronic Cigarettes on the train?

The difference is that whilst the Health Act 2006 defines:

(2)In this Chapter—
(a)“smoking” refers to smoking tobacco or anything which contains tobacco, or smoking any other substance, and
(b)smoking includes being in possession of lit tobacco or of anything lit which contains tobacco, or being in possession of any other lit substance in a form in which it could be smoked.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/28/part/1

Whereas the Railway Byelaws define:

No person shall smoke [or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter or other lighted item] on any part of the railway on or near which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

As I see it an increasing number of TOCs are reading smoke as an action by a passenger, rather than relate it, as the Health Act does, to the action of burning something.

 

[Kneedown]

They're certainly permitted on EMT services and stations though I believe the situation is under fairly constant review.

Change is imminent i'm afraid. Prohibition has been agreed on EMT and will be implemented in the near future.

 

[Mex]

I expect a fair few people smoking e-cigs are actually trying to draw attention to themselves, and may quite fancy a bit of conflict.

They want to have people think they're smoking a real cigarette, so they can try and belittle that person and show how 'clever' they are.

You can do better than that.

Disappointing.

 

[NJTom]

I use mine on the train all the time, but there is always plenty of empty air for me to occupy in this part of the world. On the few occasions I am seated close to someone else i tend not to use it, just as pure etiquette. But for those who really want to use them I would suggest to do so the same way. If no-one notices you, no problem. If the guard asks you politely to stop, and it's a fair request, I have no problem with that either. There are always going to be sociopaths on the train who annoy you all kinds of ways, thats just the reality of public transport. Don't like it ... buy a car, we have enough byelaws to navigate as it is.

 

[Greenback]

You can do better than that.

Disappointing.

How so? I have seen it happen down here. Someone politely informs another passenger on a train that smoking isn't allowed, only to be met with a sneering 'it's not a cigarette actually, if you bother to look you'll see it's electronic'. Being as the person in question was on the train for ten minutes, on the balance of probabilities I'd say there was a pretty high chance that they chose to use their device deliberately to see what would happen.

Of course, there will be a percentage of people who deliberately try and provoke other sby doing this, the same as some will deliberately turn up the volume on their headphones, or constantly go through a selection of music on their phones. It's quite clear that some of them are doing it just to provoke a reaction from other passengers.

Why should e-cigs be any different?

 

[jon0844]

Thank you. It's how people react/respond that usually gives it away too.

The same people that attract the attention of police to then preach about their rights. Some awesome examples on YouTube of kids in the US going out with assault weapons, legally, then kicking up a fuss when the cops ask them questions.

As I said, plenty of people do this sort of thing. I never said everyone does. Those that don't shouldn't be getting upset, or denying people do it.

 

[khib70]

When your on a packed commuter train with standing room only its not easy to blow water vapour anywhere except in people's faces.

Everybody blows water vapour in everyone else's faces. It's called breathing.....

 

[scotsman]

I've spoken to a passenger about e-cigs before, their response was to tell me that it wasn't real...I explained they were still banned. This passenger, along with many other e-cig users, seems to think that nothing is emitted other than water vapour from the device. Are they not forgetting the nicotine emitted?

 

[Greenback]

My personal view is that they should be treated in exactly the same way as cigarettes are treated. I say this as a smoker, so perhaps I just feel aggrieved that some people use them in places where I can't light up!

Even so, I think that they send out the wrong message. I don't know whether they are harmless or not, I'm not sure if enough research has been done on the subject. It did take a long time for proof that fags ar eharmful to come out, smoking used to be regarded as good for you at one time!

That said, a mate of mine has taken to using them occasionally as a means of giving up tobacco, so I dare say they have their uses. I would just like to see their use restricted.

 

[ECML180]

What people need to remember in the healthy/dangerous argument is that smoking(and possibly e-cigarettes) cause long term damage, so it's pretty hard to say with any certainty whether or not something is dangerous without studying it in the long term.

 

[Greenback]

Exactly. In the absence of any conclusive evidence, we should be cautious.

 

[455driver]

I cant see the problem with people using these, the only waste product is water vapour so where is the harm!

I have never smoked but do feel the smokers of the world get a raw deal and this e-cig rule is ridiculous and there is no sensible reason to ban them.

 

[Greenback]

I don't want them banned, just restricted as to where they can be used.

 

[455driver]

I would much rather have 20 people 'smoking' E-cigs on the platform than 5 smokers just outside the entrance to the station!

Why ban smoking on the open part of the platform (I agree with enclosed parts) where they wouldnt inconvenience anyone but allow it immediately outside the entrance where everyone has to walk through the haze!

 

[transmanche]

Nicotine is a poison. The median lethal dose of nicotine is estimated at 30-60mg. Yet there are no controls on e-cigarette manufacturers to regulate what goes into them, or the dosage that they release in each 'puff'.

It would seem to me that regulating them is a good thing.

 

[Greenback]

I can't argue about any of that 455driver, I'd rather smoking were allowed at the ends of uncovered platforms. Seems to work elsewhere in Europe!

And I just want consistency between e-cigs and real cigs.

 

[Tibbs]

I cant see the problem with people using these, the only waste product is water vapour so where is the harm!

I have never smoked but do feel the smokers of the world get a raw deal and this e-cig rule is ridiculous and there is no sensible reason to ban them.

Could you link to the independent evidence you've seen that shows that the only waste product is water vapour please?

 

[transmanche]

Why ban smoking on the open part of the platform (I agree with enclosed parts) where they wouldnt inconvenience anyone

Because people would constantly push the boundaries (e.g. by standing under enclosed parts when it's raining etc - like you often see at bus shelters). It's far easier to say there's no smoking anywhere.

And it's not a new thing. Smoking was banned throughout the T&W Metro from the day it opened.

 

[SPADTrap]

I would much rather have 20 people 'smoking' E-cigs on the platform than 5 smokers just outside the entrance to the station!

Totally agree with this, my current mess room window looks out onto a smoking area which is lovely when someone leaves the windows open! People wouldn't be stuck there if 'E-cigs' were allowed. Needs to be some kind of compromise I guess.

 

[455driver]

Could you link to the independent evidence you've seen that shows that the only waste product is water vapour please?

I read it somewhere but will admit I havent looked into it in any depth.
Are you saying these e-cigs are full of crap like proper cigs are?

 

[Greenback]

Because people would constantly push the boundaries (e.g. by standing under enclosed parts when it's raining etc - like you often see at bus shelters). It's far easier to say there's no smoking anywhere.

It happens now in any case. But at the entrances which, as 455driver says, everyone has to walk through.

Would it really be so bad if those people were at the edge of the canopies towards the ends of the platform rather than in the doorway of the main entrance?

Or could we follow the Netherlands and have a small shelter (just one side and a roof) to provide a little bit of protection on an exposed paltform?

I would prefer to see a designated smoking area like in Italy. I don't think that forcing smokers into a crowd at the front of the station entrance is good for anyone.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

All I could add is what I see on the American site 'howitworks.com'

Quality control is one of the main issues health experts have with e-cigarettes. They argue that manufacturers may not disclose all of the chemical ingredients used in their products. This means it may be impossible for users to know exactly what they're consuming. There is also not much known about the short- or long-term health effects of exposure to nicotine vapor.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) conducted a small study in 2009 to analyze a sample of nicotine cartridges from two manufacturers. The results showed that the amount of nicotine delivered did not always match the amount stated on the label. The study also revealed that some cartridges labeled nicotine-free in fact contained nicotine. And cancer-causing compounds found in tobacco were also found in some e-cigarette cartridges, along with other toxins. One of the toxins found was diethylene glycol, a toxic chemical used in antifreeze. [source: FDA].

http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/everyday-innovations/electronic-cigarette2.htm

 

[transmanche]

Would it really be so bad if those people were at the edge of the canopies towards the ends of the platform rather than in the doorway of the main entrance?

Or could we follow the Netherlands and have a small shelter (just one side and a roof) to provide a little bit of protection on an exposed paltform?

How about a small shelter outside the station and away from the main entrance?

 

[Greenback]

How about a small shelter outside the station and away from the main entrance?

Why? You can smoke in the open air outside railway premises with relative impunity. This includes covered spaces, such as pavements with awnings over them.

 

[transmanche]

Why? You can smoke in the open air outside railway premises with relative impunity. This includes covered spaces, such as pavements with awnings over them.

Because it solves the problem you highlighted (of smokers hanging around right by the entrance) by encouraging them to use the shelter instead.