Electronic Cigarettes on trains

[thenorthern]

I know this has been discussed before but I think there have been some changes recently in the rules and I was wondering what are the rules on using Electronic Cigarettes on the train?

Personally I can't stand people using them on the train as I find people blowing water vapour into my face quite rude but that is just my personal opinion.

 

[Crossover]

As far as I am aware, they're not allowed

 

[iguana]

I'll give you the short version, as since I'm an ex-smoker who vapes (uses an e-cigarette), I'm very much involved in trying to get the various senseless rules against them (at the EU, national and TOC level) overturned or stopped in their tracks. You don't want to know the full details - or I might exceed any word limit this forum has for postings!

I constantly use my e-cig on trains, but in "stealth" mode - holding in the vapour so that there's nothing visible. No vapour, no problem! I avoid doing this when train staff are around, since I don't want to get into an argument with them about a policy they had no hand in making, but might be expected to enforce.

The TOCs seem to be all falling into line (if they haven't all already done so) with the British Medical Association's completely groundless, scientifically unfounded opposition to e-cigarettes, and making it company policy to forbid their use; even though they have no obligation to under legislation.

(My deep objections to this kind of "legislation by oligopoly decision" are another story; as is the BMA's Martin McKee's strident and strictly political rather than scientific or medical objection to e-cigs; as is the general level of scare-propaganda surrounding the subject).

I completely understand your reluctance to have vapour blown in your face: even though all research indicates it's absolutely harmless, it can still feel like an impolite intrusion on your space. This is why I "stealth-vape" in enclosed spaces such as trains.

Personally I think a bit of courtesy and mutual agreement between fellow passengers would go a long way on this subject. The heat has been stoked up, though, because almost all vapers are, like myself, ex-smokers, and having been thoroughly wound up by the demonisation of smokers over the past couple of decades, have now succeeded in giving up smoking only to be demonised again by the "public-health" establishment and legislative bodies!

 

[CalderRail]

There is no legal obligation on rail companies to prevent their use. They are not cigarettes, and do not fall under the same legislation.

The TOCs could ban their use if they chose, but until they actually put up notices saying "vapers are not allowed on our services by TOC policy", there's no grounds for it.

That said, not exhaling vapour at people is just basic politeness.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Electronic Cigarettes are covered by Northern Rail's (and I expect other TOC's) smoking policy. Persons using such devices should be politely requested to stop using them whilst on stations and on board trains.

Part of the reason is that some brands of electronic device closely resemble cigarettes, cigars or pipes, potentially this can cause confusion and doubt, leading to problems and potential embarrassment whilst staff follow the smoking policy.

 

[BestWestern]

They are now prohibited on all FGW services and stations, and by staff in non public indoor areas.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I'll give you the short version, as since I'm an ex-smoker who vapes (uses an e-cigarette), I'm very much involved in trying to get the various senseless rules against them (at the EU, national and TOC level) overturned or stopped in their tracks. You don't want to know the full details - or I might exceed any word limit this forum has for postings!

I constantly use my e-cig on trains, but in "stealth" mode - holding in the vapour so that there's nothing visible. No vapour, no problem! I avoid doing this when train staff are around, since I don't want to get into an argument with them about a policy they had no hand in making, but might be expected to enforce.

The TOCs seem to be all falling into line (if they haven't all already done so) with the British Medical Association's completely groundless, scientifically unfounded opposition to e-cigarettes, and making it company policy to forbid their use; even though they have no obligation to under legislation.

(My deep objections to this kind of "legislation by oligopoly decision" are another story; as is the BMA's Martin McKee's strident and strictly political rather than scientific or medical objection to e-cigs; as is the general level of scare-propaganda surrounding the subject).

I completely understand your reluctance to have vapour blown in your face: even though all research indicates it's absolutely harmless, it can still feel like an impolite intrusion on your space. This is why I "stealth-vape" in enclosed spaces such as trains.

Personally I think a bit of courtesy and mutual agreement between fellow passengers would go a long way on this subject. The heat has been stoked up, though, because almost all vapers are, like myself, ex-smokers, and having been thoroughly wound up by the demonisation of smokers over the past couple of decades, have now succeeded in giving up smoking only to be demonised again by the "public-health" establishment and legislative bodies!

I used to have e-cigs, its easy to prove that you have one, like holding the lit end and showing that your not burning your hand

I thought it would be better as then I could safely smoke on trains, coaches, pubs etc, and not pollute the area, but it's now banned in 'Spoons, trains, buses, coaches etc. I've gone back to the real things now, apparently even e-cigs are more harmful...depending which ones they are I guess

 

[LowLevel]

They're certainly permitted on EMT services and stations though I believe the situation is under fairly constant review.

 

[rdeez]

Similarly to iguana, I also use mine in 'stealth mode' on board, and usually try to get a seat out of view of other passengers (easier if I'm in first class) who might be tempted to complain (even if the vapour is nowhere near them). I also blow the vapour downwards.

Having said that, I've left it in open view on tables / trays etc when the TM has been ticket checking on XC/LM services and none of them have ever commented on it, so what their corporate policy is on it I don't know.

I'm a bit sceptical about the OP's suggestion that people blow the vapour directly into their face, presumably a bit of hyperbole? I can't imagine anyone not trying to blow the vapour away from other people, unless the OP happens to be unfortunate enough to share services with the rudest, most thoughtless people in the entire country on a daily basis...

 

[Yew]

unless the OP happens to be unfortunate enough to share services with the rudest, most thoughtless people in the entire country on a daily basis...

London Commuters?

 

[Tetchytyke]

If water vapour ever gets blown in my face on the Northern Line, it'll make a nice change from the usual sneezes and sniffles and coughs. Though e-cigs don't have to emit water vapour, that's there for realism rather than necessity.

The banning of e-cigs is either (depending on who you ask) a health issue or an issue of "confusing other passengers". Neither holds much water. E-cigs are bad for your health but the Greggs Steak Bake I'm eating right now is pretty bad for my health too. And anyone who sees someone on an e-cig and starts smoking a real cig is a weapons-grade idiot who'd probably be doing it anyway.

I don't smoke- it's basically the same thing as setting fire to rolled up fifties- but I couldn't care less if someone else uses an e-cig on a train. I'd rather they did it in the carriage then holed themselves up in the bog for ten minutes when I need a wee.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'
I completely understand your reluctance to have vapour blown in your face: even though all research indicates it's absolutely harmless,

Where's the peer reviewed evidence that e-cigs are either safe or effective?

but [the World Health Organisation] concluded that no rigorous, peer-reviewed studies have been conducted showing that the e-cigarette is a safe and effective nicotine replacement therapy.16

 

[GB]

I dare say theres more contained in the vapour than just water. A couple of blokes at work use them and the vapour stinks....though clearly nothing like proper cigarettes.

 

[ECML180]

Where's the peer reviewed evidence that e-cigs are either safe or effective?

If you're making a quote about peer reviewing and academic standards...may as well provide a reference!

https://bma.org.uk/-/media/Files/PD...th/tobaccoecigarettespublicplaces_jan2013.pdf

The quote can be found in the document above which in turn refrences this:
World Health Organization press release (19.9.08) Marketers of electronic cigarettes should halt unproved therapy claims

 

[matthewmacleod]

Where's the peer reviewed evidence that e-cigs are either safe or effective?

There's very little of it.

This is actually quite surprising, as co-ordinated safety tests and legislation of e-cigarettes would help to massively cut down on the number of people smoking. I'd have thought the EU and WHO would have seen this one coming a mile off, but apparently we're going to have to wait ages until the issue is sorted.

 

[thenorthern]

I'm a bit sceptical about the OP's suggestion that people blow the vapour directly into their face, presumably a bit of hyperbole? I can't imagine anyone not trying to blow the vapour away from other people, unless the OP happens to be unfortunate enough to share services with the rudest, most thoughtless people in the entire country on a daily basis...

When your on a packed commuter train with standing room only its not easy to blow water vapour anywhere except in people's faces.

 

[rdeez]

When your on a packed commuter train with standing room only its not easy to blow water vapour anywhere except in people's faces.

Downwards would work? As it's heavier than air...Unless you're taller than everyone around you...

Personally, I'd avoid using mine in that kind of situation, though.

 

[iguana]

Where's the peer reviewed evidence that e-cigs are either safe or effective?

I don't want to go too far OT, as this is a rail forum, so I'll be brief:

- The WHO, along with the EU and the BMA, are seriously behind the curve on e-cigs. Probably because they're still captured by anti-tobacco zealots, who are somehow convinced (or would like to convince us) that e-cigarette = cigarette.
- E-cigs are not a nicotine replacement therapy, but a recreational nicotine product which people can use (at their own dosage, unlike a medicine) to cut down or give up smoking. Treating them as either cigarettes or medicines amounts to turning them into something they're not.
- There's plenty of research showing that e-cigs are at least 95% less harmful to the user than cigarettes, and pose a negligible harm to bystanders.

For references, try Googling Clive Bates, Prof Robert West, Lynne Dawkins, Jean-Francois Etter, Konstantinos Farsalinos or Carl Phillips for starters.

 

[thenorthern]

Downwards would work? As it's heavier than air...Unless you're taller than everyone around you...

Personally, I'd avoid using mine in that kind of situation, though.

The problem is most people I have come across who use E-Cigs still do use it in that situation.

 

[Tibbs]

The other issue is that there is almost no independent research that demonstrates how safe the e-cigs are, nor how effective they are either.

The people who make them are not regulated in any way so could be shoving any old crap into them. We also don't know how much nicotine or other nasties are expelled in the vapour, or indeed are breathed in. There isn't even any evidence(that I can see) to show that the dosing works properly.

If they prove to be safe, then I'm all in favour of them. Right now, people are making assertions on the basis of 'research' done by the manufacturers. If we did that for everything, cars would have no safety features, smoking would still be safe and openly advertised to children, and eating McDonald's for every meal would be viewed as healthy...

 

[PermitToTravel]

I dare say theres more contained in the vapour than just water. A couple of blokes at work use them and the vapour stinks....though clearly nothing like proper cigarettes.

Their vapour smells to me precisely like the "smoke" emitted by a smoke machine, if that adds anything, and I do seem to recall reading somewhere that they are the same thing

 

[Tracky]

I take exception to the flavoured ones. But then I also politely request women don't paint their nails due to the strong smell it inflicts on others.

 

[bnm]

This is actually quite surprising, as co-ordinated safety tests and legislation of e-cigarettes would help to massively cut down on the number of people smoking. I'd have thought the EU and WHO would have seen this one coming a mile off, but apparently we're going to have to wait ages until the issue is sorted.

In the mean-time, just in case vaping devices are legislated against in the future, I'm stockpiling ingredients and equipment.

I already have a years supply of nicotine base, propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin and flavour concentrates. Two dozen or more tanks, replacement coil and wick, mouthpieces. And numerous rechargeable batteries.

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't want to go too far OT, as this is a rail forum, so I'll be brief:

So will I.

Irrespective of any views about an e-cigarette. When you are travelling on a train you must abide by the conditions of carriage and the respective railway bylaws. If a TOC wants to prohibit vaping then so be it. A TOC provides a duty of care to its entire passenger base and again, without going into the demonisation of smokers, being brief. The TOC sets the rules; passengers should obey them.

If you don't like it. Don't travel. Also do not be so disrespectful of the TOC and its rules by stealth vaping. If its allowed then vape away to your pleasure and be mindful of others.

 

[Nym]

When your on a packed commuter train with standing room only its not easy to blow water vapour anywhere except in people's faces.

Or just not use it?

 

[anme]

I know this has been discussed before but I think there have been some changes recently in the rules and I was wondering what are the rules on using Electronic Cigarettes on the train?

Personally I can't stand people using them on the train as I find people blowing water vapour into my face quite rude but that is just my personal opinion.

Fair enough, but in hope you don't drive a car.

 

[thenorthern]

Fair enough, but in hope you don't drive a car.

No I don't, sorry.

 

[rdeez]

I think like so many other things on public transport - music, talking on phones, seat etiquette - it all comes down to basic manners and awareness of others. Many are consciously aware of and seek to avoid the impact their actions have on their fellow passengers; others either lack awareness that they're affecting others or realise but don't care.

How many people would take issue with e-cigarettes being used responsibly, i.e. Not next to others or in a vestibule area if they really needed to use it on a longer journey? Probably not that many. I can fully sympathise with the OP in the situation he has described - that's a disregard for others.

For e-cigs specifically I do think a blanket ban is OTT and think people should be asked to use them responsibly or to move elsewhere / cease use if they are bothering others. I recognise that the reality however is that the TMs / Guards have better things to do than act as the politeness police and understand why some TOCs may then just ban them completely.

Once again, it's the actions of the inconsiderate few that affect everyone.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk

 

[jon0844]

I expect a fair few people smoking e-cigs are actually trying to draw attention to themselves, and may quite fancy a bit of conflict.

They want to have people think they're smoking a real cigarette, so they can try and belittle that person and show how 'clever' they are.

 

[rdeez]

I expect a fair few people smoking e-cigs are actually trying to draw attention to themselves, and may quite fancy a bit of conflict.

They want to have people think they're smoking a real cigarette, so they can try and belittle that person and show how 'clever' they are.

Oh come on...really? :roll: