Electrify the cardiff valley lines

[tbtc]

Need to bear in mind that not all Valley lines services are doubled up units though

Roughly how many are doubled (off peak/ peak), and do they do the logical thing and double up similar units, or do they couple Pacers to Sprinters?

 

[krus_aragon]

Right, here's an amalgamation of how I currently understand intentions:

Platforms from Pontypridd-Radyr-Queen St-Central-Penarth have already been extended ready to accomodate 6 carriage trains. Some platforms on the Barry line (e.g. Eastbrook) are not long enough.

Intention to get 4 through platforms for valley services by reopening disused platform at CDQ and building new bay platform for the Bay, while at CDF poach platform 4 for valley services, build a platform 8 (access through old Cardiff Riverside building?) and reinstate bay platform 5 for terminating services from the west.

The WAG are unsure about their plan to requadruple the bridge north of CDQ over Newport Road due to the need for Works Orders, cost etc, and think they can achieve neccesary short term improvement without it.

Send some extra services (non-stop?) via the City Line to avoid CDQ-CDF bottleneck (using platform 5, presumably)


This is all based on public domain info, from NR and WAG websites, except the platform extensions which are personal observations.

 

[Pacerpilot]

To satisfy my curiosity, are there any new EMUs currently that fit the C1 load gauge. I cant seem to find any gauge info for the current breeds of EMU.

The Rhymney Valley wont be an issue but the RCT will. C3 stock is only permitted as far as Taffs Well.

 

[anthony263]

To satisfy my curiosity, are there any new EMUs currently that fit the C1 load gauge. I cant seem to find any gauge info for the current breeds of EMU.

The Rhymney Valley wont be an issue but the RCT will. C3 stock is only permitted as far as Taffs Well.

I thought C3 Stock could only be cleared as far as Radyr?

 

[krus_aragon]

I thought C3 Stock could only be cleared as far as Radyr?

That's what the NR baseline declaration suggests: only 14X and 150 allowed north of Radyr.

 

[sprinterguy]

Roughly how many are doubled (off peak/ peak), and do they do the logical thing and double up similar units, or do they couple Pacers to Sprinters?

I don't have a great amount of knowledge of the Valley Lines, only limited experience, but as far as I can tell the pairs of units tend to keep Pacers with Pacers and Sprinters with Sprinters. I would also be interested to know how many trains are doubled up throughout the day, to be able to make some comparisons of overall seating and capacity if compared to a suitable three carriage EMU formation.

To satisfy my curiosity, are there any new EMUs currently that fit the C1 load gauge. I cant seem to find any gauge info for the current breeds of EMU.

The 150s are quite wide vehicles, so I think there shouldn't be any major problems with accomodating 20m EMU vehicles on the route with their slightly narrower bodies. If Valley Lines electrification went ahead I can imagine there would be some tweaking of the infrastructure to ensure that the new trains could run on the routes with sufficient clearances, as it would be necessary to do; unlike the current situation where it is not cost effective to enhance the guage as there would be no trains taking advantage of the increased clearances. As I say though I can't see it being a major problem anyway.

Surely the mark 3 based EMUs such as the 313s and 315s would be fine if they were cascaded to the route, as they are based on the same bodyshell a the 150s?

 

[Pacerpilot]

I thought C3 Stock could only be cleared as far as Radyr?

They could terminate in the down at Taffs Well via the Crossover, at least they could when I did the route brief prior to signing my route card.

 

[daikilo]

I have a real problem understanding why to electrify.

This contained network needs flexibility to match O&D demand to schedules and on-board pax demand during the normal working hours is currently highly variable.

 

[Greenback]

I have a real problem understanding why to electrify.

This contained network needs flexibility to match O&D demand to schedules and on-board pax demand during the normal working hours is currently highly variable.

I'm sorry, I don't understand! What is O&D demand? What is on board pax demand? Sorry if I;m being a bit thick!

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm sorry, I don't understand! What is O&D demand? What is on board pax demand? Sorry if I;m being a bit thick!

Origin and destination demand (At least, that's what it means at Centro): Bascially a wide spread of start points and destinations. daikilo is suggesting that electrification will reduce the scope of journeys by potentially missing out some essential links I think, but the plans being dicsussed here are likely to see the current network electrified as a complete package, seeing as the Valley lines are completely self contained anyway so that wouldn't be an issue.

On board passenger demand is the number of people travelling on each train service. By saying it's variable daikilo, are you suggesting that the electrification case might be reduced by relatively low patronages on some services and high numbers of passengers on only a selection of them? Just to make things crystal clear.

The Pacers and Sprinters are going to have to be replaced with something eventually, and when that time comes I think the opportunity to electrify should be taken, as replacement trains are going to be needed. Electrifying the Valleys will reduce operating and maintenance costs and offer benefits for many, many years. The scheme would be even cheaper if cascaded EMUs were used; say displaced 319s with the fourth carriage removed (Which could maybe be inserted into sets used on the proposed Manchester-Liverpool electric service to give five carriage trains if the platforms could handle it).

 

[tbtc]

The Pacers and Sprinters are going to have to be replaced with something eventually, and when that time comes I think the opportunity to electrify should be taken, as replacement trains are going to be needed. Electrifying the Valleys will reduce operating and maintenance costs and offer benefits for many, many years. The scheme would be even cheaper if cascaded EMUs were used; say displaced 319s with the fourth carriage removed (Which could maybe be inserted into sets used on the proposed Manchester-Liverpool electric service to give five carriage trains if the platforms could handle it).

Good idea about the fourth car

 

[Greenback]

Origin and destination demand (At least, that's what it means at Centro): Bascially a wide spread of start points and destinations. daikilo is suggesting that electrification will reduce the scope of journeys by potentially missing out some essential links I think, but the plans being dicsussed here are likely to see the current network electrified as a complete package, seeing as the Valley lines are completely self contained anyway so that wouldn't be an issue.

On board passenger demand is the number of people travelling on each train service. By saying it's variable daikilo, are you suggesting that the electrification case might be reduced by relatively low patronages on some services and high numbers of passengers on only a selection of them? Just to make things crystal clear.

The Pacers and Sprinters are going to have to be replaced with something eventually, and when that time comes I think the opportunity to electrify should be taken, as replacement trains are going to be needed. Electrifying the Valleys will reduce operating and maintenance costs and offer benefits for many, many years. The scheme would be even cheaper if cascaded EMUs were used; say displaced 319s with the fourth carriage removed (Which could maybe be inserted into sets used on the proposed Manchester-Liverpool electric service to give five carriage trains if the platforms could handle it).

Thank you sprinterguy. The only variations I have noticed, and I admit I don't travel that frequently up the valleys, is that some of the peak return services from Cardiff are jam packed while others have a little bit of room on them. This, I have ehard, is due to passengers wanting a faster train to places like Pontypridd and avoiding the stopping services if they can.

Hopefully, electrification would allow a recast timetable allowing a better spread of services and a move away from the traditional idea of fast and stopping services. Skip stopping could be introduced, as the vast majority of peak flows will be to and from Cardiff, and not, say, from Treforest Estate to Abercynon.

I would not support, or agree with some sections of the valleys being left out of an electrification programme. It must be all or nothing! For clarification, I am not including Maesteg or Ebbw Vale, as these are not really part of the Cardiff Valleys!

 

[Solaris]

Thank you sprinterguy. The only variations I have noticed, and I admit I don't travel that frequently up the valleys, is that some of the peak return services from Cardiff are jam packed while others have a little bit of room on them. This, I have ehard, is due to passengers wanting a faster train to places like Pontypridd and avoiding the stopping services if they can.

Hopefully, electrification would allow a recast timetable allowing a better spread of services and a move away from the traditional idea of fast and stopping services. Skip stopping could be introduced, as the vast majority of peak flows will be to and from Cardiff, and not, say, from Treforest Estate to Abercynon.

I would not support, or agree with some sections of the valleys being left out of an electrification programme. It must be all or nothing! For clarification, I am not including Maesteg or Ebbw Vale, as these are not really part of the Cardiff Valleys!

Would you include some of the VoG line to Barry, Penarth, etc. I believe some valley services run on into the Vale? If the valleys was electrified post GWML then I would do the whole lot - Maesteg, Ebbw and the Vale.

 

[Greenback]

Would you include some of the VoG line to Barry, Penarth, etc. I believe some valley services run on into the Vale? If the valleys was electrified post GWML then I would do the whole lot - Maesteg, Ebbw and the Vale.

Yes, I would include these lines!

 

[krus_aragon]

Would you include some of the VoG line to Barry, Penarth, etc. I believe some valley services run on into the Vale?

It's currently one service per hour, which will be increased to two (of four total to Barry) once the VoG is resignalled with shorter headway.

 

[The Planner]

VoG is only getting resignalled up to Aberthaw as part of Cardiff, the rest stays as is.

 

[Solaris]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...p-spark-valleys-into-new-life-91466-27331545/

 

[daikilo]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...p-spark-valleys-into-new-life-91466-27331545/

The only clear overlap between the valleys services and the mainline are Ebbw Vale and Maesteg. The others are ~self-contained and should be evaluated on their merits.

Issue will be how to minimise OHLE/3rd rail equipment spend and e.g. the need to protect for electric freight ops.

 

[anthony263]

I know Arriva & the WAG want to extend the current Ebbw Vale - Cardiff service through to Maesteg but this will require the upgrading of the loop at Tondu.

This wouldnt really need any extra units as the units currently sit at Cardiff central for about 50 minutes between trips to Ebbw Vale.

If the valley lines are electrified then maybe this could free up a few class 150's to provide extra services on the Maesteg - Cheletenham, Swansea - Cardiff swanline & perhaps extra services to west wales and maybe a service along the swansea district line.

In terms of new rolling stock didnt that chinese firm offer to build a factory in the uk if they received any large train orders?

 

[MCR247]

You are saying it takes 50 minutes to get from Cardiff to Maesteg and back?

 

[The Planner]

Takes 50 just to do one leg of it. The idea is to use the bay platform at Bridgend and run a shuttle inbetween the longer distance services.

 

[anthony263]

You are saying it takes 50 minutes to get from Cardiff to Maesteg and back?

I am trying to come up with a proposed timetable to show the extension of the Ebbw Vale services but i think you could run an hourly servce using the current number of units

I know part of the proposals to have a half hourly service on the Maesteg line but there are people wanting a train serving Pencoed & Pontyclun every 30 minutes

 

[tbtc]

Is there really space on the main line through Bridgend?

In between the hourly Maesteg service, the hourly London - Swansea service, the hourly Manchester - Carmarthen service, a "Swanline" stopper every couple of hours, random freight taking up paths... that's four trains many hours already

 

[Greenback]

I'm not sure how many trains can be accommodated on the South Wales Main Line, but Pencoed, Llantrisant and Pontyclun are deserving of more than one train an hour. They are commuterland for Cardiif, Bridgend and even Swansea.

 

[The Planner]

4 minute headways, so as long as the stoppers sit behind the HSTs then it shouldnt be an issue as long as there arent too many troublesome trucks about.

 

[welshdragon]

I don't expect to see any electrification here any time soon, even in my lifetime. The Pacers out of Cardiff will continue for many years to come (worst luck).

One point of note - may people use the train in the valleys as many would use a bus service - taking a trip one, two or three stops down or down the line - to work, school, shopping etc. It isn't used just as a means of getting from the valleys to Cardiff, although this of course is also very important.

It is worth remembering that, before the introduction of the 150/2s in the 1980's that services were operated by 3-car dmu's, only to be replaced by 2-car sprinters, and later pacers. Additional capacity would be beneficial, especially during peak times and during major events in the capital. I have regularly experienced overcrowding between stations on the Rhondda line (Treherbert and Pontypridd) as well as closer to Cardiff.

I like the idea of a service up to Brecon from Merthyr - but again I cannot see this happening any time soon. As for 100 mph running - it would be nice to see a speeding up of services, especially for those of us that live further up the branches. However, I cannot see this as possible due to the gradients and sharp curves, as the lines hug the contours of the narrow valleys as they make their way north. Increased lines speeds on the SWML would be welcome first.

 

[Greenback]

You're right about the traffic patterns. Pontypridd, Merthyr, Aberdare and Caerphilly are also popular destinations for the smaller stations. But it's the nature of the track alignments. and the frequency of station stops, that make the Valleys network ideal for electrification.

The trouble is, if any funding can be found for it, there will be complaints from other parts of Wales that Cardiff and the South East are getting the lion's share of investment again!

 

[ainsworth74]

The trouble is, if any funding can be found for it, there will be complaints from other parts of Wales that Cardiff and the South East are getting the lion's share of investment again!

Sounds like a mini version of England!

 

[Greenback]

I think, to be honest, it is! Watching a rugby programme earlier two players from Cardiff were more or less saying that anyone from West Wales was a bit of a bumpkin! A bit like the Cockney view of the West Country maybe?!!!

Most of the population of Wales is located in the South East corner tough, so I'd expect it to get a lot of money compared to, say, Ceredigion. I wonder how the spending on rail has compared per head of population per county over the last three decades?

 

[tbtc]

In fairness, that's where the people are. If anything Wales is even more "bottom heavy" than England or Scotland:

In Scotland the third and fourth biggest places are Aberdeen and Dundee, so some way from the "Edinburgh - Glasgow" corridor

In England half of the "top ten" is close to the M62 (Liverpool/ Manchester/ Leeds/ Hull) plus Sheffield.

Whereas, in Wales even a "small" place down south (Cwmbran) is bigger than anywhere in northern Wales.

The "Greater Cardiff" area can justify an electrified "Metro" service. The rest of Wales can't. Sadly the politicians will want some kind of equivalent investment elsewhere, which would push up the costs of Valley Electrification (since you'll need to be seen to be spending money in Gwynedd etc too, even if it's not justified)