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Electrify the cardiff valley lines

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merlodlliw

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I was late spotting your thread, will the WAG Et Al, spend the dosh to get the lines electric, I do realise the lines are well used in the Valleys, and people prefer them to the car, so my friends tell me, the awful pacers must be getting to the end of their lives, one day we may have elecs Crewe/Chester/Shrewsbury, but not alas for a long time, first of all we need to get a double track to Chester from Wrexham, but when. The demand for rail is there, already WAG have spent a £M on new Arriva Buses to run a 15 min service Wrexham to Chester Rail Station, most are full and very long almost bendi bus size
 

anthony263

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I did read that the valley lines were to be electrified as part of the great western mainlines the vale of glamorgan is to be electrfied as it is used often for diversions
 

krus_aragon

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I did read that the valley lines were to be electrified as part of the great western mainlines the vale of glamorgan is to be electrfied as it is used often for diversions

OK when I read Valley Lines I think of those via Queen Street etc,

Electrifying the GWML and the SWML will be the shoehorn to get electrification to Wales, IMHO. The diversionary routes to be done at the same time include the Vale of Glanmorgan and the Newport-Gloucester lines. That then opens the door for the rest of the Valley Lines to be wired up. Hopefully they'll keep this in mind when they're resignalling the Cardiff area in the next few years.
 

philjo

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In Modern Railways that arrived yesterday, it said that WAG would like all of the Cardiff Valleys services to be electric, with work to start as soon as possible after the main line has been completed. (It didn't mention if they actually had any money for this though)

It also said that WAG want the Newport to Crewe route to be electrified, (but as most of that route is in England presumably they won't pay for most of it...)
 

43021HST

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The valleys to be electrified! The're hardly high density passenger traffic
 

krus_aragon

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The valleys to be electrified! The're hardly high density passenger traffic

Cardiff Queen Street (only served by valley line trains) has annual passenger usage of ~2.5 million. There's also an unknown proportion of the ~10 million at Cardiff Central, and other journeys that don't terminate in the middle. At the core, between CDQ and CDF, there's 12tph each way (twice as many as in the one-way Liverpool loop line) with a need for 16tph for future capacity. It's fairly high density out to Pontypridd, Penarth, Barry, and Ystrad Mynach (4-6tph each).
 

43021HST

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I was thinking of Rhymney vally and Ebbw valley. Also can you compare those to the electrified lines in hampshire and the outer cities like Manchester, Liverpool and London, compared to those cardiff is quite small.
 

rww100

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Manchester's population is 13% greater than that of Cardiff, but I wouldn't call the capital of Wales small, and say that its surrounding area doesn't need electrification.
 
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Dai.

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This was bought up in the station adopters conference. I can't remember what they said about it, but if I remember correctly it was something along a long shot and they didn't know!
 

merlodlliw

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In Modern Railways that arrived yesterday, it said that WAG would like all of the Cardiff Valleys services to be electric, with work to start as soon as possible after the main line has been completed. (It didn't mention if they actually had any money for this though)

It also said that WAG want the Newport to Crewe route to be electrified, (but as most of that route is in England presumably they won't pay for most of it...)

There is nothing in the transport plan for Wales(WAG published) that says
electrify Newport to Crewe, or I have missed it, you would be dealing with
various County Councils in the Marches,plus North East Cheshire et al.
I am sure this is a non starter.
 
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What is with this great desire to electrify everything?

The 'more efficient' argument is a load of crap because people seem to forget that while electric trains don't burn diesel there and then, they just use what was made in the power station, electricity, which is often made using coal, oil or gas! D'oh!
 

starrymarkb

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More efficient yes. Faster Accelleration, More power in a smaller lighter package, cleaner local environment (ie no clag fumigating stations, quieter too), less mechanical parts...

Less CO2 maybe... That depends on on the power source. It is still more efficient to use one big stationary power source then many small ones.

Oh and diesel doesn't have this sort of performance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErUbQ-Qmtfo (The Valleys are pretty much an S-Bahn)
 
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tbtc

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More efficient yes. Faster Accelleration, More power in a smaller lighter package, cleaner local environment (ie no clag fumigating stations, quieter too), less mechanical parts...

...and longer lasting trains. A DMU might be built to last 20 years (yeah, I know some have lasted longer, but they weren't *meant* to!), whereas an EMU has less to go wrong/age, meaning the 319s will outlast DMUs of a similar age.

The Valley Lines have one thing in their favour for EMUs - they're pretty much self contained. Some lines elsewhere in the UK have a lot of DMUs on them (e.g. Mancester - Leeds), but electrifying them wouldn't mean you could get rid of all DMUs (unless you wired all the branches to Hull/ Middlesbrough/ Scarborough etc etc). Whereas, the Valley Lines work apart from most other lines (like MerseyRail or C2C) - you could even wire them up if the GWML wasn't wired up.
 

anthony263

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I do think the valley lines need to be electrified, in fact i think they should be next in line to be electrified after the great western mianline, mostly because the midland mainline has had a lot of new trains in the last few years while the valley lines are still operating with pacers which should be withdrawn as a matter of urgency with the displaced class 150/153 dmus being sent down to cornwall to enable the pacers down there to be sent for scrap as well.

nearly all of the valleys have a service every 30 minutes, the only exfeptions being rhymney although this will increase to half hourly once the loop at tir-phil is put in nad the ebbw vale line should get a half hourly service at least between ebbw vale & rogerstone with a hourly service to either cardiff or newport.

I do suspect the ebbw vale to newport service will be very popular when they are introduced so trains along this route will have to run with at least 3/4 carriages
 

Old Timer

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Would be quite ironic if it ever came off.

Former miners using electric trains powered by electricity produced by either French Nuclear power stations or foreign-subsidised coal imports in UK power stations.
 

Saltleyman

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Would be quite ironic if it ever came off.

Former miners using electric trains powered by electricity produced by either French Nuclear power stations or foreign-subsidised coal imports in UK power stations.

instead of the Valley lines you could call them "the Thatcher" lines ? :cry:
 
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Solaris

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Given doubts over GWML electrification any prospect of electrifying the valleys line network in the next 10 years would appear slim. Furthermore, as spending and powers over rail infrastructure are not devolved (The DfT are responsible for England and Wales as a whole) it is likely, even though there is a +ve BCR for Valleys electrification, that other schemes in England would be “higher priority”. What is needed for Valleys electrification is firstly a devolution of rail powers and funding so the WAG can issue its own HLOS to NR (as Transport Scotland can do for Scotland) and then a commitment to complete GWML electrification and continue onto the valleys thereafter (to reduce unit costs)
 

Greenback

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It really is a no brainer to electrify the Valley Lines. A self contianed system radiating out from a city to a densely populated hinterland where natural geography has meant that ribbon communities have developed causing frequent station stops at short intervals.

Superior acceleration will reduce journey times, the trains will be more reliable, cheaper to operate, and a more efficient use of our precious but dwindling natural resources.

To those like klambert who question whether the routes are high density, just pay a visit to any of the Valley branches. You will fidn off epak trains well loaded, even for short journeys like Hengoed to Caerphilly or Porth to Pontypridd. The only parts of the system that ar ehoruly are due to infrastructure issues which hopefully will be tackled in the enxt few years; it is not due to any lack of demand!
 

D107

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Just reintroduce the LHCS "loco and trucks"! Introduced, successful, efficient and apparently cheaper than a lease deal for a 150. It kept to the rush hour timings and had the bonus of extending during the day to Fishguard and also the Royal Welsh during the summer.

A bit of imagination and I suppose it could be also introduced on lines other than the Rhymney Valley providing the infrastructure exists and the traction stays within the RA.

Maybe just a dream of course....thankfully Bubbles still struts its stuff on the 'Bay!
 

Solaris

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It really is a no brainer to electrify the Valley Lines. A self contianed system radiating out from a city to a densely populated hinterland where natural geography has meant that ribbon communities have developed causing frequent station stops at short intervals.

Superior acceleration will reduce journey times, the trains will be more reliable, cheaper to operate, and a more efficient use of our precious but dwindling natural resources.

To those like klambert who question whether the routes are high density, just pay a visit to any of the Valley branches. You will fidn off epak trains well loaded, even for short journeys like Hengoed to Caerphilly or Porth to Pontypridd. The only parts of the system that ar ehoruly are due to infrastructure issues which hopefully will be tackled in the enxt few years; it is not due to any lack of demand!

I would agree. For the >0.5M people who live in the valleys immediately north of Cardiff , you have the option of travelling into the city by car and getting snarled up on the A470 or you get an overcrowded train on a network whose increased capacity is not constrained by lack of demand but by limitations of the existing infrastructure. I still find it hard to understand that the UK government is still considering spending >£20Bn on HS2 when a fraction of that amount could transform the attractiveness and efficiency of a large portion of the UK rail network. I am convinced a much larger benefit can be delivered, more quickly and at lower cost by implementing schemes like:
GWML, MML, infill & Cardiff valleys electrification;
Enhance and electrify the Chiltern line to take pressure off the WCML,
Heathrow access from GWML,
ERTMS,
Northern Hub,
Bristol Rail improvements,
Etc.....
 

anthony263

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I heard the cost to electrify the valley lines network was about £250 million.

Also i suspect the Great western will have to be electrified at some point, maybe a link should be installed at Airport junction to allow trains from the reading direction to acess Heathrow Airport without having to reverse
 

tom1649

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Does that include new rolling stock to run on the newly electrified lines?

Maybe they'll get second hand stock. Remember the 308s on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines, and the 305s on the North Berwick line? I imagine there'll be some elderly 321s spare by the time the Valleys are electrified.
 
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