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Electrification the DFT needs to get on with

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zwk500

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As I'm well aware. I should have mentioned I was talking about the 377 BEMU that was talked about... IF the Uckfield Branch is to be BEMU, then it has to be of similar levels of passenger comfort to a 171, AirCon, Plugs and so on. a 230 wouldn't be of any use due to the slow top speed, which could be an issue when the train runs on the FASTS from Croydon to London Bridge.

You then have the practicalites of charging a BEMU on said Branch, 3rd Rail possibly wouldn't provide enough power, sure ReGen braking will put some back to it potentially.

Like I said, the sensible option is 3rd Rail... (Substations have been added recently all over, so its more than possible). The ELL extension was 3rd Rail afterall...
The ELL was a couple of hundred yards of new 3rd rail between 2 existing 3rd rail systems. It would have been madness not to. 26 miles of 3rd rail that connects to nothing, less so.

The batteries has all the time from Hurst Green to London Bridge and back to charge, and if it was still considered a problem you could install an inductive charger in the Uckfield platform, as lots of electric buses do today. If you put in 0.5-1km of new 3rd rail from Hurst green jn, you'd mitigate issues about accelerating off the junction and running out while holding short. 3rd rail for Uckfield would only be justified if you were connecting into a 3rd rail line at the southern end, but that particular ship is very firmly tied up to the treasury's dock right now.
 
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cle

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I still think Uckfield is worthwhile, to remove an anomaly - which is as good as an island. We should be getting to 12 cars through Croydon in the peaks, and if that means platform extensions, so be it.

The Marshlink route doesn't run to London or need anything like the same stock. They don't share characteristics beyond power. 230s could work there, for instance. As for even more isolated stock, maybe a 769 sub-fleet could be at Brighton for locals. But better yet, 3rd rail it and have options and consistency in the region.
 

JonathanH

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I still think Uckfield is worthwhile, to remove an anomaly - which is as good as an island. We should be getting to 12 cars through Croydon in the peaks, and if that means platform extensions, so be it.
10-car 171s are the equivalent of 12-car 377s. I would hope that the Uckfield platforms were extended to fit 240m trains rather than 230m ones.
 

Bald Rick

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377s. I would hope that the Uckfield platforms were extended to fit 240m trains rather than 230m ones.

They were.

Also, I think people would be less confident in saying that electrifying to Uckfield would be ‘worthwhile’ if they knew the estimated cost.

And no, I’m not telling.
 

Energy

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They were.

Also, I think people would be less confident in saying that electrifying to Uckfield would be ‘worthwhile’ if they knew the estimated cost.

And no, I’m not telling.
What makes the cost so high?
 

Fincra5

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They were.

Also, I think people would be less confident in saying that electrifying to Uckfield would be ‘worthwhile’ if they knew the estimated cost.

And no, I’m not telling.
GTR would think it's worthwhile I'm sure! And EMR (Who want the Units). Tbh for a TOC a unified fleet of Electrostars is far easier... Electrification costs are always high but needs must, especially if you want to decarbonise the Railways more.
The ELL was a couple of hundred yards of new 3rd rail between 2 existing 3rd rail systems. It would have been madness not to. 26 miles of 3rd rail that connects to nothing, less so.

The batteries has all the time from Hurst Green to London Bridge and back to charge, and if it was still considered a problem you could install an inductive charger in the Uckfield platform, as lots of electric buses do today. If you put in 0.5-1km of new 3rd rail from Hurst green jn, you'd mitigate issues about accelerating off the junction and running out while holding short. 3rd rail for Uckfield would only be justified if you were connecting into a 3rd rail line at the southern end, but that particular ship is very firmly tied up to the treasury's dock right now.
So whats the advantage of creating an AC Island, which require set DV units or keep it uneletrifed and have a Microfleet of BEMUs or DMUs, to a TOC, none....

Indeed Hurst Green to London Bridge is a while but there are limitations on the DC System, with all the hunders of other trains using it. So would you get a full charge, when the train is also using the DC power to move? Could ReGen Braking provide enough? Possibly not. 3rd Rail is Justified as it is in use on the rest of the SN Network (Part from Marshlink and WCML).
 

zwk500

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GTR would think it's worthwhile I'm sure! And EMR (Who want the Units). Tbh for a TOC a unified fleet of Electrostars is far easier... Electrification costs are always high but needs must, especially if you want to decarbonise the Railways more.
As mentioned above, if GTR were asked to contribute they'd be less keen. EMR even less so. The advantage of a unified fleet of Electrostars is attractive, but I suspect we will see 'limp-home' batteries appear on lots of EMUs as battery tech develops so they won't be so far from the norm. And Southern maintain non-standard fleets of DV 377s for the MK runs and 313s on the Coastway lines, so it's clearly not a showstopper in the face of very high initial cost. Southern seem to cope well enough with the completely different 171s as well...
So whats the advantage of creating an AC Island, which require set DV units or keep it uneletrifed and have a Microfleet of BEMUs or DMUs, to a TOC, none....
The advantage of an AC island is none, the advantage of leaving it be is the money can get spent where it's most useful.
Indeed Hurst Green to London Bridge is a while but there are limitations on the DC System, with all the hunderds of other trains using it. So would you get a full charge, when the train is also using the DC power to move? Could ReGen Braking provide enough? Possibly not. 3rd Rail is Justified as it is in use on the rest of the SN Network (Part from Marshlink and WCML).
An upgrade to the power supply system between Croydon and London Bridge would be of benefit to all trains using that section, not just 1tph each way. You don't need the batteries to get fully charged unless you're emptying them out over the 50 mile return trip. And if there's a risk of that you can install a top-up facility at Uckfield.
 

tbtc

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These are very good questions. Feeds in to the discussion of the various Newcastle locals above as well.

It's a problem - the more you know about a situation, the more complicated it becomes!

The Newcastle area local stuff is frustrating - if BR had had a couple of quid more thirty years ago then they might have been able to do the Hexham - Sunderland (and the little section at Morpeth) but now that the Metro runs to Wearside, that removes the benefits you'd get for wiring as far as Sunderland, which takes the wind out of the sails of any other proposals (and makes them too small scale to get a team together for?)

That's why I'd prefer operationally self-contained services rather than doing things for the politics of it.

The reason I picked the Calder Valley Services out of Leeds is something you've pretty much encapsulated, except that Leeds to Manchester via Brighouse will soon (in railway terms) be partly electric. A year ago you had services running York - Blackpool, Hull-Halifax, Bradford-Huddersfield, Burnley-Manchester, Leeds-Brighouse-Manchester Vic and Leeds-Halifax-Manchester Vic. So that would need a fleet of bi-modes - more likely one of the Scrapheap Challenge fleets that keep not quite arriving in service - or you do all of the bits of route off the main route as well.

Politically you'd do it so you could talk about "modern" trains for Burnley, Rochdale and Bradford. Operationally, forget it and do something simpler. And cheaper.

You make good points there - there are potentially a few lines where we could electrify but we'd need to simplify things to make the economics work - i.e. it's not efficient to wire it if we kept the same service pattern but the frequency of trains could make it worthwhile - e.g. there's five trains per hour from Sheffield to Doncaster (a similar distance to Uckfield - Hurst Green) - but would people round here accept the benefits of electric trains if it meant losing the direct services through to places where the frequencies don't warrant wiring (e.g. with just one train per hour to Cleethorpes, it probably wouldn't get done, but then that'd either mean no through trains from Sheffield to Cleethorpes - but if we kept running DMUs from Sheffield to Cleethorpes then that'd take away part of the benefits of wiring the line to Doncaster since not all of the trains would be switching over to the new power source).

What makes the cost so high?

I can't speak with any authority, but I guess that you'd have to consider the tunnel(s?) on the route plus you'd be spreading the costs of the project over a could of dozen miles (which, given the set up costs, the "getting a team together" stuff, might make the cost per mile prohibitively expensive)

Some electrification projects can be justified due to the air pollution in urban areas (which isn't much of an issue at Uckfield), the regeneration of poorer places (which isn't much of an issue at Uckfield), sometimes you can justify investment in "swing seats" as far as politics goes... but I'm struggling to find something that would push the Uckfield line higher up the list than it currently is, assuming that we can get battery/hybrid technology that can cover a fifty mile round trip at relatively low speeds, with the train charging up again north of Hurst Green

I don't like the idea of "diesel islands", I wouldn't be unhappy if the two Southern routes were electrified, but there are economies of scale with bigger projects, which means that a relatively small bit of line is disproportionately expensive
 

Fincra5

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As mentioned above, if GTR were asked to contribute they'd be less keen. EMR even less so. The advantage of a unified fleet of Electrostars is attractive, but I suspect we will see 'limp-home' batteries appear on lots of EMUs as battery tech develops so they won't be so far from the norm. And Southern maintain non-standard fleets of DV 377s for the MK runs and 313s on the Coastway lines, so it's clearly not a showstopper in the face of very high initial cost. Southern seem to cope well enough with the completely different 171s as well...

The advantage of an AC island is none, the advantage of leaving it be is the money can get spent where it's most useful.

An upgrade to the power supply system between Croydon and London Bridge would be of benefit to all trains using that section, not just 1tph each way. You don't need the batteries to get fully charged unless you're emptying them out over the 50 mile return trip. And if there's a risk of that you can install a top-up facility at Uckfield.
But that isn't how electrification works... You could argue the same for electrifying anywhere, with pricey OHLE (which often requires changes to infastructure) ... Southern do indeed have DV units, which are also used on the MKC route, so you'll need more... 377/5s back from SE maybe but 313s also need replacing.

I disagree that it isn't useful but we won't agree on that. An upgrade to the power system is expensive too... so moot point there.
 

zwk500

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But that isn't how electrification works...
What isn't how electrification works?
You could argue the same for electrifying anywhere, with pricey OHLE (which often requires changes to infastructure) ...
You can, and many do! There's a reason OLE schemes are slow to gather momentum: nobody wants to pay for it.
Southern do indeed have DV units, which are also used on the MKC route, so you'll need more... 377/5s back from SE maybe but 313s also need replacing.
The point was not that Southern had DV units going spare, but that they maintain at least 3 non-standard subfleets. Replacing 1 of these non-standard fleets (171s) with something closer to the standard (377s that can take batteries as a power source instead of the rail) would be easier for Southern to maintain. And that with the next round of fleet replacement (377s are now about 15 years old so 10-15 years away?) Last-mile batteries may be standard on EMUs so that if the power shuts off they can get to the next platform - LNER have certainly found the last-mile GUs useful on multiple occasions.
I disagree that it isn't useful but we won't agree on that. An upgrade to the power system is expensive too... so moot point there.
I agree that it would be useful, money no object. But at it's present cost, given the alternative options, it isn't a sensible investment. The upgrade to the power system was about charging the batteries, but I accept it's a weak point.
 

Bald Rick

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What makes the cost so high?

Not saying, principally because I don’t know!


Tbh for a TOC a unified fleet of Electrostars is far easier...

Indeed. And a D.C. only battery Electrostar is a lot closer to a DC only electrostar than an AC / D.C. Electrostar, of which GTR will retain many for a long time.

I don’t understand why people think that putting a battery on a train makes the train so complicated. It’s literally a battery pack, some extra control equipment and software.


Electrification costs are always high but needs must, especially if you want to decarbonise the Railways more.

But there’s a limit.


Indeed Hurst Green to London Bridge is a while but there are limitations on the DC System, with all the hunders of other trains using it. So would you get a full charge, when the train is also using the DC power to move? Could ReGen Braking provide enough?

You would get sufficient charge, yes.
 

Fincra5

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What isn't how electrification works?

You can, and many do! There's a reason OLE schemes are slow to gather momentum: nobody wants to pay for it.

The point was not that Southern had DV units going spare, but that they maintain at least 3 non-standard subfleets. Replacing 1 of these non-standard fleets (171s) with something closer to the standard (377s that can take batteries as a power source instead of the rail) would be easier for Southern to maintain. And that with the next round of fleet replacement (377s are now about 15 years old so 10-15 years away?) Last-mile batteries may be standard on EMUs so that if the power shuts off they can get to the next platform - LNER have certainly found the last-mile GUs useful on multiple occasions.

I agree that it would be useful, money no object. But at it's present cost, given the alternative options, it isn't a sensible investment. The upgrade to the power system was about charging the batteries, but I accept it's a weak point.
Not as many as you think, if the Uckfield Branch goes AC and runs as 12car 377, not to mention Peak Additonals (so 3x DV units). Don't forget the MKCs run hourly(?) as 8 Cars. On a Normal Timetable there isn't much spare. So you'd need the 377/5s back from SE... but it means you restrict more what goes where.

Last-Mile Batteries would be useful on all EMUs however 25miles is a bit different lol.

Interested to see how much a BEMU Unit Converstion (For X amount for the service) costs vs 3rd Rail... Over the lifetime of the Train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Not saying, principally because I don’t know!




Indeed. And a D.C. only battery Electrostar is a lot closer to a DC only electrostar than an AC / D.C. Electrostar, of which GTR will retain many for a long time.

I don’t understand why people think that putting a battery on a train makes the train so complicated. It’s literally a battery pack, some extra control equipment and software.




But there’s a limit.




You would get sufficient charge, yes.
I'm deffo no saying its complicated. Infact I thought, and said ages ago in a diff thread, that 377/3s were the best choice. 1 Less Coach to power from Batteries (MOSL), Easy Decitaced BEMU Fleet. A Rapid Charge Panto (like buses) could be added for Rapid Charge at Uckfield.

There is a limit but it all comes down to what the DfT want as well, if they want simplicity for their TOC's, thats what they'll go for.
 

MatthewRead

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I still think Uckfield is worthwhile, to remove an anomaly - which is as good as an island. We should be getting to 12 cars through Croydon in the peaks, and if that means platform extensions, so be it.

The Marshlink route doesn't run to London or need anything like the same stock. They don't share characteristics beyond power. 230s could work there, for instance. As for even more isolated stock, maybe a 769 sub-fleet could be at Brighton for locals. But better yet, 3rd rail it and have options and consistency in the region

I still think Uckfield is worthwhile, to remove an anomaly - which is as good as an island. We should be getting to 12 cars through Croydon in the peaks, and if that means platform extensions, so be it.

The Marshlink route doesn't run to London or need anything like the same stock. They don't share characteristics beyond power. 230s could work there, for instance. As for even more isolated stock, maybe a 769 sub-fleet could be at Brighton for locals. But better yet, 3rd rail it and have options and consistency in the region.
The new South Eastern franchise is meant to be taking over Marshlink services with Bi-mode trains it's in one of the issues of Modern Railways.
 

Bald Rick

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Not as many as you think, if the Uckfield Branch goes AC and runs as 12car 377, not to mention Peak Additonals (so 3x DV units). Don't forget the MKCs run hourly(?) as 8 Cars. On a Normal Timetable there isn't much spare. So you'd need the 377/5s back from SE... but it means you restrict more what goes where.

Last-Mile Batteries would be useful on all EMUs however 25miles is a bit different lol.

Interested to see how much a BEMU Unit Converstion (For X amount for the service) costs vs 3rd Rail... Over the lifetime of the Train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I'm deffo no saying its complicated. Infact I thought, and said ages ago in a diff thread, that 377/3s were the best choice. 1 Less Coach to power from Batteries (MOSL), Easy Decitaced BEMU Fleet. A Rapid Charge Panto (like buses) could be added for Rapid Charge at Uckfield.

There is a limit but it all comes down to what the DfT want as well, if they want simplicity for their TOC's, thats what they'll go for.

A rapid charge, bespoke pantograph solution was suggested for Uckfield some time ago, but that would be bonkers. Better to have a stretch of shielded conrail that is only live when the train is on it, linked to lineside batteries that are trickle charged. It would get enough charge in a 10 minute turnaround to get it about half way back to Hurst Green, so, the battery just needs capacity for 40 miles on a cold / hot day plus contingency for a long delay not moving. Personally I’d make it capable of 60miles plus contingency, but that’s me.

I’m not saying this will happen, just that it could!
 

Aictos

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Just a simple question but can electrification be devolved to the NR regions in that they have more of a say in what gets electrified in their area of responsibility by this I mean have their own teams and more independence with their own budgets in place and a rolling programme so they are allowed to get on with electrifying what needs to be done. Of course the final decision is taken by the SecTrans.
 

Bald Rick

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Just a simple question but can electrification be devolved to the NR regions in that they have more of a say in what gets electrified in their area of responsibility by this I mean have their own teams and more independence with their own budgets in place and a rolling programme so they are allowed to get on with electrifying what needs to be done. Of course the final decision is taken by the SecTrans.

Nope. National strategy, National Budget. (Scotland is separate, obviously).

For clarity, all enhancement spending (which new electrification is) is controlled nationally, and for all but a handful of specified very small projects it is controlled by Treasury.
 
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Aictos

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Nope. National strategy, National Budget.

For clarity, all enhancement spending (which new electrification is) is controlled nationally, and for all but a handful of specified very small projects it is controlled by Treasury.
Pity, would it not be more effective for the regions to have more of a say in what lines under their control is electrified after all as they maintain the lines day in and day out surely they would know more if a business case is good enough for electrification then some DfT accountant.
 

SouthEastBuses

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When electrification to Uckfield is complete, I feel that a peak hour Thameslink 700 service to Central London might be a good idea, but this will depend on demand.
 

Energy

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GTR would think it's worthwhile I'm sure!
On a side note I'm sure Network Rail and everybody else involved would be delighted if GTR fork up the cash for it. Looking at the Chiltern franchises I wouldn't call it unachievable, assuming its, a: a very long franchises and b: reasonably affordable.
 

Bald Rick

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On a side note I'm sure Network Rail and everybody else involved would be delighted if GTR fork up the cash for it. Looking at the Chiltern franchises I wouldn't call it unachievable, assuming its, a: a very long franchises and b: reasonably affordable.

a) franchising is dead....
 

zwk500

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The new South Eastern franchise is meant to be taking over Marshlink services with Bi-mode trains it's in one of the issues of Modern Railways.
When are they planning to do this by?
a) franchising is dead....
Do we have any clear idea what will be replacing it, and the relationship of the private companies (who presumably will feature, given the government that gets to make this decision) with NR and the Treasury? In particular for the development of major projects given the subject of the thread.
 

Bald Rick

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Do we have any clear idea what will be replacing it, and the relationship of the private companies (who presumably will feature, given the government that gets to make this decision) with NR and the Treasury? In particular for the development of major projects given the subject of the thread.

That depends who you mean by ‘we’.

Some people do, yes. But not many, and they are certainly not going to write about it here.
 

Mikey C

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4. It makes maintenance more expensive (than OLE)
5. The whole life cost is more than OLE (in most, but not all examples)
6. It can deliver less power, and trains are thus limited on acceleration.




Is the correct answer!
I suppose on the other hand, 3rd rail is easier to install and far less disruptive. No bridges to be lifted or rebuilt, no tracks to be lowered so that trains fit through tunnels etc

AND it is the system which is currently used across the southeast of England. There's no chance of a mass programme to convert all the Southern Region 3rd rail to OHLE, can you imagine the cost of rebuilding Clapham Junction alone!
 

Greybeard33

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I suppose on the other hand, 3rd rail is easier to install and far less disruptive. No bridges to be lifted or rebuilt, no tracks to be lowered so that trains fit through tunnels etc

AND it is the system which is currently used across the southeast of England. There's no chance of a mass programme to convert all the Southern Region 3rd rail to OHLE, can you imagine the cost of rebuilding Clapham Junction alone!
Except that, for any new 3rd rail, the ORR has set the bar very high in respect of protecting potential trespassers on the railway from electrocution. That means lots of fencing and other security measures, and probably also getting rid of all level crossings, including occupation crossings. Not at all easy and highly disruptive.
 

zwk500

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I suppose on the other hand, 3rd rail is easier to install and far less disruptive. No bridges to be lifted or rebuilt, no tracks to be lowered so that trains fit through tunnels etc
3rd Rail may still need bridges rebuilding, to give space for the 3rd rail to be laid. It might be (marginally) less disruptive to install, but it's much, much more disruptive to maintenance and operations as it all but prevents access to the track without an isolation. You effectively save pennies on install to spend additional pounds for the rest of time.
AND it is the system which is currently used across the southeast of England. There's no chance of a mass programme to convert all the Southern Region 3rd rail to OHLE, can you imagine the cost of rebuilding Clapham Junction alone!
Just because the system is there doesn't mean we should electrify using it when other alternatives exist. Especially when most of the 3rd rail candidates are only served by 1tph in each direction that can use 3rd rail anyway.
 

Energy

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I suppose on the other hand, 3rd rail is easier to install and far less disruptive. No bridges to be lifted or rebuilt, no tracks to be lowered so that trains fit through tunnels etc

AND it is the system which is currently used across the southeast of England. There's no chance of a mass programme to convert all the Southern Region 3rd rail to OHLE, can you imagine the cost of rebuilding Clapham Junction alone!
You've got to deal with water drainage though, with OHLE it isn't a problem, maybe slightly in tunnels but with third rail water is much more of a concern.
 

HSTEd

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Just because the system is there doesn't mean we should electrify using it when other alternatives exist. Especially when most of the 3rd rail candidates are only served by 1tph in each direction that can use 3rd rail anyway.

We do have a electrodiesel solution available for third rail.......
It might not be modern, but we do have one!

On the plus side, we get to do another thread about 442s, this time coupled to Class 73s!

It's Southern Region bingo!
 
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