Electrification the DFT needs to get on with

[D365]

To allow tram-trains to be simplified.

Be real. How many tram-train schemes are actually going to come to fruition in the UK?

Your idea to convert all light rail/metro from DC to 25kV AC... how far are you intending to go?

Just unnecessary.

 

[Bigman]

I would go with:

Neville Hill E Jcn to Colton Jcn + South Kirby Jcn & Doncaster to Proof House Jcn + Bromsgrove to Yate Jcn. That would electrify the whole Cross Country route from Bristol to Edinburgh.

 

[Bald Rick]

3. Wooton Basset-Bristol TM (Bristol TM is definitely in progress, not sure if via Bath will be wired?)

Point of order, sir - Bristol TM is not ‘in progress’. The remodelling is, but not the electrification.

 

[zwk500]

Point of order, sir - Bristol TM is not ‘in progress’. The remodelling is, but not the electrification.

Accepted

 

[The Planner]

A few mentions of Birmingham to Nuneaton here, not sure what that actually gets you. Doesn't allow any XC to go electric, some of the Lawley St freight could change if FL can resource it and Avanti with their new bi-modes won't have an issue when required to divert (they are quite happy to send Voyagers that way again now too). If it was to Leicester then it would sell better.

 

[Hey 3]

A few mentions of Birmingham to Nuneaton here, not sure what that actually gets you. Doesn't allow any XC to go electric, some of the Lawley St freight could change if FL can resource it and Avanti with their new bi-modes won't have an issue when required to divert (they are quite happy to send Voyagers that way again now too). If it was to Leicester then it would sell better.

That's it why I put it to Felixstowe and Cambridge to allow Cross Country trains to go electric and the help the "Felixstowe-Nuneaton-WCML" axis.

 

[D365]

So this is just a list of everything that could be done if Network Rail had the money?

 

[py_megapixel]

Didcot to Oxford. The current situation of 387s to Didcot then 165 shuttles to Oxford is ludicrous.

At which point you might as well do Coventry to Oxford as well; then the Manchester-Bournemouth could be entirely electric

 

[Ianno87]

So this is just a list of everything that could be done if Network Rail had the money?

Basically yes.

The list would be more constructive if it were the schemes closest to "shovel ready".

 

[py_megapixel]

Basically yes.

The list would be more constructive if it were the schemes closest to "shovel ready".

Are there any shovel-ready but cancelled schemes?

I didn't think MML or Windermere were allowed to get that far.

 

[swt_passenger]

To allow tram-trains to be simplified.

[25 kV]
But that’s not really true. Everything that’s fitted in a 750 V dc tram will also still be needed in a 25 kV, and you have to add the significant weight of a transformer and a rectifier. More stuff again if you want re-gen braking. It’s actually more complex, and heavier, not simpler. Which is probably why no-one does it...

 

[zwk500]

So this is just a list of everything that could be done if Network Rail had the money?

Basically yes.

The list would be more constructive if it were the schemes closest to "shovel ready".

I have been trying to drag some sense of priority out of the suggestions

Are there any shovel-ready but cancelled schemes?

I didn't think MML or Windermere were allowed to get that far.

I doubt it, because by the time you've got to 'shovel-ready' you've already established a clear business case & need, and committed a lot of funding to things like design, land and utility diversions, etc. To pause at that point is just a waste of money (as was cancelling, but oh well)

EDIT: Even if any schemes had got that far and then been cancelled, they'd need another round of design to take into account updated standards and learning points from other schemes completed in the interim.

 

[Ianno87]

Are there any shovel-ready but cancelled schemes?

I didn't think MML or Windermere were allowed to get that far.

Probably not quite. The closest are likely to be Windermere, Lostock Jn-Wigan and Manchester-Stalybridge.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I've got a map that I will post soon about my electrification plans in the UK. But I'm also aiming for 100% electrification.

My electrification plans in the first phase (out of three) would include:

- GWML to Bristol Temple Meads and Swansea
- Extension of Reading-Taunton OHOE from Newbury to Taunton, continuing further to Plymouth and Paignton
- Taunton-Bristol-Birmingham line
- Didcot Parkway-Coventry line
- Extension of MML OHLE from Market Harborough to Nottingham and Sheffield, with a further extension to Doncaster
- Oxted-Uckfield Line
- Ore-Ashford Line
- Reading-Basingstoke Line
- Basingstoke-Salisbury Line
- Southampton/Eastleigh-Salisbury Line
- Crewe-Chester-Wrexham General Line
- The top 3 busiest Cardiff Valley Lines
- Chiltern Main Line: London Marylebone to Birmingham Moor Street (electrification extended to Gloucester to allow class 350s and 730s to run on Moor Street lined), Aylesbury*, Oxford and both London side and Birmingham side of Stratford upon Avon branches.
- Cardiff-Gloucester Line
- Calder Valley Line: Preston to Bradford (?)
- All lines terminating at Bradford Interchange
- TransPennine Main Line: Manchester Victoria to York
- Leeds / Doncaster to Hull Line
- Dunblane / Edinburgh to Inverness, Perth and Aberdeen

 

[Hey 3]

Probably not quite. The closest are likely to be Windermere, Lostock Jn-Wigan and Manchester-Stalybridge.

And Huddersfield-Westtown(Dewsbury) possibly

 

[SouthEastBuses]

- Harrogate Line from Leeds to Harrogate
- Penistone & Hallam lines
- Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury Line
- Manchester to Bradford Interchange line
- Doncaster to Wakefield Kirkgate via Pontefract Monkhill line
- Bolton-Blackburn line
- Manchester-Wigan-Southport line
- Bolton-Wigan Line
- Nottingham-Lincoln Line
- Wakefield-Sheffield line
- Ravensthorpe-Wakefield line
- York-Scarborough Line
- Northallerton/Darlington - Middlesbrough/Sunderland lines
- Sunderland-Newcastle line
- Liverpool-Manchester via Warrington Central Line

 

[SouthEastBuses]

As a continued list from my last message about the first phase of electrification UK

 

[Watershed]

Probably not quite. The closest are likely to be Windermere, Lostock Jn-Wigan and Manchester-Stalybridge.

Didcot-Oxford surely - numerous piles already in place, even some steelwork. The layout has been remodelled, the signalling is immunised...

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Didcot-Oxford surely - numerous piles already in place, even some steelwork. The layout has been remodelled, the signalling is immunised...

I really want this line electrified.

 

[BrianW]

So this is just a list of everything that could be done if Network Rail had the money?

Basically yes.

The list would be more constructive if it were the schemes closest to "shovel ready".

I have been trying to drag some sense of priority out of the suggestions

I doubt it, because by the time you've got to 'shovel-ready' you've already established a clear business case & need, and committed a lot of funding to things like design, land and utility diversions, etc. To pause at that point is just a waste of money (as was cancelling, but oh well)

EDIT: Even if any schemes had got that far and then been cancelled, they'd need another round of design to take into account updated standards and learning points from other schemes completed in the interim.

This reminding (from upthread #4)

It's very simple - there is no money (unless the DfT explicitly approves it).
Work is proceeding on MML (Kettering to Market Harborough), North TP (Colton Jn-Church Fenton) and in Scotland (East Kilbride/Barrhead).
The TP scheme has some legs and is very likely to extend westwards (but will not include the Calder Valley or Hope Valley routes).
TfW is electrifying some of the Valley lines round Cardiff (some of it with discontinuous electrification).
HS2 will be electrified from Day 1 (contract in the pipeline).

NR has published its decarbonisation strategy, including a detailed list of which routes it is considering wiring, but the DfT has not approved any of it yet.
Traction Decarbonisation Network Strategy - Interim Programme Business Case (networkrail.co.uk)

Alternative modes of traction are the rage - bi-mode, battery and hydrogen projects are in progress, mostly at the experimental stage.
Crucially, NR has yet to prove it can deliver electrification at a price and timescale acceptable to the DfT/Treasury.
Most routes also need a major upgrade before wiring is worth doing, which weakens the business case.
The Chancellor might give some clues about rail upgrade policy in the Budget tomorrow - but again, he hasn't any money to splash around on a railway running at 30% usage (if that).

In essence 'the list' is there in that DfT doc, esp a map at Fig 14, so it's really now down to prioritisation. For me it would be about assembling costed and funded rolling programmes for each of battery/ hydrogen/ bimode, starting with 'quick wins' ie small and 'shovel-ready'. And delivering on time and in budget- no ifs, no buts. 'The industry' has to win back trust with government. Underpromise, over-deliver. No more GW debacles. No starting before design fully worked up.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

It's very simple - there is no money (unless the DfT explicitly approves it).
Work is proceeding on MML (Kettering to Market Harborough), North TP (Colton Jn-Church Fenton) and in Scotland (East Kilbride/Barrhead).
The TP scheme has some legs and is very likely to extend westwards (but will not include the Calder Valley or Hope Valley routes).
TfW is electrifying some of the Valley lines round Cardiff (some of it with discontinuous electrification).
HS2 will be electrified from Day 1 (contract in the pipeline).

NR has published its decarbonisation strategy, including a detailed list of which routes it is considering wiring, but the DfT has not approved any of it yet.
Traction Decarbonisation Network Strategy - Interim Programme Business Case (networkrail.co.uk)

Alternative modes of traction are the rage - bi-mode, battery and hydrogen projects are in progress, mostly at the experimental stage.
Crucially, NR has yet to prove it can deliver electrification at a price and timescale acceptable to the DfT/Treasury.
Most routes also need a major upgrade before wiring is worth doing, which weakens the business case.
The Chancellor might give some clues about rail upgrade policy in the Budget tomorrow - but again, he hasn't any money to splash around on a railway running at 30% usage (if that).

Which Valley Lines are being electrified? And are they being electrified at 25 Kv AC?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I'd wire the turnback at Morpeth, that bit I think is worth it.

Hexham station has a lot of it's heritage features, which OLE would have a significant impact on. The signal box, footbridge and canopies would all be in danger of the increased clearances required. Even if it isn't listed, it will still be a challenge to overcome. By no means insurpassable, but not to be overlooked.

I have a solution for Hexham:

Why not use Mark 3b headspans (less visually intrusive) instead of Series 1 and 2?

 

[Metrolink]

I think the main ones I would look at for electrification would be:

• Newport - Hereford - Worcester/Crewe
• Nottingham - Grantham (maybe opening 2tpd LNER London Kings Cross - Nottingham or Nottingham - Peterborough - Stansted Airport via Cambridge)
• Nottingham to Lincoln via Newark (not too sure about this one)
• Peterborough - Norwich via Ely
• Leeds to Sheffield via Rotherham and Wakefield
• (As mentioned) MML and Didcot - Oxford

Im not too sure if these meet the criteria that was posted upthread but I think these are some that could be thought about.

Hull to ECML.

And maybe up to Beverley (or Bridlington).To me it seems to waste a direct service from London to Beverley if Hull Trains went Electric.

Windermere. In railway terms it would cost about 50p.

East West Rail from day one - building a new diesel railway in 2021 is absolutely ridiculous. Delay opening it for a year or two to get it done if needs be, better than people getting used to having it then losing it for a bit to do it later.

Agreed.

 

[davetheguard]

At which point you might as well do Coventry to Oxford as well; then the Manchester-Bournemouth could be entirely electric

Unfortunately you'd still have a gap Reading to Basingstoke.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Unfortunately you'd still have a gap Reading to Basingstoke.

Planned under my phase 1 electrification plans. When done, CrossCountry from Manchester to Bournemouth will be operated with dual voltage Intercity EMUs!

 

[py_megapixel]

Unfortunately you'd still have a gap Reading to Basingstoke.

Good point.

 

[Hey 3]

Also Lostock to Wigan should be prioritised, as it as diesel island, Windermere, all major main lines and long term conversion of the third rail network to overhead, and in the far future all lines to be wired.

 

[JonathanH]

At which point you might as well do Coventry to Oxford as well; then the Manchester-Bournemouth could be entirely electric

Unfortunately you'd still have a gap Reading to Basingstoke.

Good point.

I think sacrificing Cross Country running south of Reading wouldn't necessary be a bad thing, given the time consuming reversal. Manchester to Reading electric with a separate service Reading to Bournemouth.

You could even arguably just give up the paths south of Basingstoke to SWR and have people connect at Reading and Basingstoke, improving the Reading to Basingstoke GWR shuttle to 4tph timed evenly across the hour.

Splitting services to allow electric operation is not a bad thing and, indeed, should probably be encouraged as a short term development.

 

[zwk500]

Also Lostock to Wigan should be prioritised, as it as diesel island, Windermere, all major main lines and long term conversion of the third rail network to overhead, and in the far future all lines to be wired.

First 2 yes for priority. The Chiltern and North end of the MML should be candidates for the next phase of electrification. Conversion of the entire 3rd rail network isn't going to happen - only selected lines such as Basingstoke-Weymouth.

 

[Mikey C]

I'd finish off the parked GW schemes like Oxford and Bristol and the Northern TPE. Not bothered about the GW branches if they are just shuttles if batteries are a genuine option

Then it's about
1) Electrifying the busiest lines
2) Removing DMUs from urban areas with poor air quality (e.g. New Street).
3) Releasing newer DMUs to replace Sprinters
Possibly using bimodes to help with this


Thus the Chiltern mainline would be electrified, starting at both ends to remove DMUs from Marylebone and Snow Hill, while there would be a phased electrification of the remaining local routes passing through New Street and Snow Hill. Replace the Voyagers with Bimodes to enable them to use these wires and in the short term modify them to use batteries in urban environments, something being explored now. Replacing the current Chiltern fleet releases a load of Turbostars which will be really useful elsewhere

Obviously I want similar for Manchester and the MML extended in full, but it's up to someone to decide the order.