Electrification scrapped.

[Geezertronic]

I don't see why more intermediate stations should be added between the 'hub' at Old Oak Common and Birmingham, otherwise HS2 will solely be for travel between London and Birmingham ignoring other communities (e.g. Aylesbury). I'd suggest building a spur to Oxford with HS2 trains running onto Banbury (and since Oxford-Banbury would have to be electrified it would make sense to wire up the GWML as well, which might not happen), to reduce overcrowding on FGW trains to Oxford and Chiltern trains to Banbury

Regardless of our opinions, the scope of HS2 will change so Old Oak Common may not exist in the current Government's scheme of linking it direct to Heathrow. However I would suggest you (and others) are wrong by stating that HS2 would be solely for travel between London and Birmingham because the Labour scope of HS2 had a connection to the WCML at Lichfield which made it entirely possible that some Pendolino's could be run via HS2 (at 140mph maybe) rather than the current WCML South (Glasgow services for example). If the current Government's plans did not include links to existing lines such as this, I would be very very disappointed.

 

[anthony263]

I dont know how the electrification could cost over £1 billion, as i am sure i read somewhere a few years ago that it would only cost £250 million to electrifiy the great western to Swansea/Bristol & £500 million to electrify the entire great western.

Besides if FGW or next operator are given a longer term contract then maybe they would be willing to invest in electrification and why dont some of the other opators put some money into the pot for it as some ATW local services could be run using EMU'S if the route is electrified.

 

[WatcherZero]

It was budgeted as £1bn for GW and £100m for the North West schemes (before Blackpool North tacked on).

But this gels with the rumour that the Thameslink consultants have been made temporarily redundant. No stock to cascade, no point in electrification.

Also for a review of franchises to take place the refranchising in progress of Greater Anglia and Essex Thameside has been cancelled, Anglia will resume at the end of the year and Thameside Autumn next year its just been announced. Network Rails Coucher has also resigned this morning, looks like they are doing some major house cleaning and everything will be totally paralysed for a year just like new spending commitments and rolling stock procurement.

Also interestingly this interview with Coucher published yesterday:
http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/gene...ation-looking-increasingly-unlikely-soon.html

 

[Drsatan]

However I would suggest you (and others) are wrong by stating that HS2 would be solely for travel between London and Birmingham because the Labour scope of HS2 had a connection to the WCML at Lichfield which made it entirely possible that some Pendolino's could be run via HS2 (at 140mph maybe) rather than the current WCML South (Glasgow services for example).

Sorry, I forgot to mention that HS2 would include a connection to the Trent Valley Line at Litchfield.

However, to reduce journey times even more, why not extend HS2 to Manchester and Liverpool, and then onto Glasgow? (as per NR's plans). Running HS2 to Glasgow would decimate London-Glasgow domestic flights.

Read more here http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/5892.aspx

 

[Geezertronic]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that HS2 would include a connection to the Trent Valley Line at Litchfield.

However, to reduce journey times even more, why not extend HS2 to Manchester and Liverpool, and then onto Glasgow? (as per NR's plans). Running HS2 to Glasgow would decimate London-Glasgow domestic flights.

Read more here http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/5892.aspx

It's ok saying that but as others have said, you have to start somewhere. In the Labour plans, HS2 from London to Birmingham was the start of what was supposed to be a bigger picture. Under the current Government, they have different views so it will be interesting to see what happens when (or if) further information gets released.

 

[tbtc]

It's ok saying that but as others have said, you have to start somewhere. In the Labour plans, HS2 from London to Birmingham was the start of what was supposed to be a bigger picture

Precisely.

Which is why this talk of it *only* being from London to Birmingham frustrates me. HS1 could be used by the majority of trains from London to Manchester/ Liverpool/ Glasgow (and other cities). Once the first part was up and running you can then consider whether you extend the High Speed sections to Leeds via Manchester (Conservative Plan) or to Manchester and to Leeds via Sheffield (Labour Plan). But no point in doing it all at once; much better to start on the section with the biggest cost/ benefit ratio (where capacity is needed), then increase it.

 

[Oswyntail]

In the latest list of projects scrapped or put on hold, there is no mention of any electrification project. The only transport related projects mentioned are one to improve road access in North Kent and "The A14". See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/politics/10341015.stm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/politics/10341863.stm

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

If that's the case then it's good news; However I get the feeling that we haven't seen the full picture yet.

 

[Oswyntail]

If that's the case then it's good news; However I get the feeling that we haven't seen the full picture yet.

I suspect you are right - but it does suggest that the Sun story was its usual speculation

 

[Greenback]

Hopefully the Lib Dems have insisted on electrification going ahead!

 

[gordonthemoron]

The A14 scheme mentioned is presumably improvements between Huntingdon & Cambridge

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

The Sun/The Star - If it appears in either of these comics, then it must be gospel.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its only a list of 24 projects from across all of government theyve taken decisions on, this is a fraction of the cuts of 20-25% in every department planned.

I was thinking perhaps the Northern electrification may be safer than the Great Western. If they cut back on the orders for Thameslink say 25-50% they wont have enough for both schemes but GW would need more and has the option of life extending HST, so a Northern electrification could take place to use up the fewer displaced unitsbecause theirs no life extension option.

 

[Solaris]

I think Wales/SW England are due some sort of rail investment. Since the last major upgrade in the 1970s when HST was introduced, there really has been nothing south or west of Swindon since. In that time we have seen WCML upgrade, ECML upgrade, numerous electrification schemes, trams in Manchester, Sheffield, London, new tubes, station upgrades, etc. In 1980 one could travel from Cardiff to London on a HST in 1hr45 the Manchester/London journey at time was >2hr 30. Today the same journeys are 2hr10m and ~2hr5min respectively. Bristol and Cardiff have got further away from London when compared to other major UK cities over the last 30 years. Even in Wales, today, the HST can only run at a top speed of <100mph at best...... The opportunity to electrify the GWML must be taken; after all the bulk of the £1Bn cost will be incurred 2014-2017 and not in the next four years anyway. Seems like a drop in the Ocean when compared to £18bn for CrossRail and even more for HS2 to Brum??

 

[gordonthemoron]

They could provide 'new' electric trains for GW by replacing the HST power cars with 1 electric loco and a driving trailer with seats in it

 

[WatcherZero]

I think Wales/SW England are due some sort of rail investment. Since the last major upgrade in the 1970s when HST was introduced, there really has been nothing south or west of Swindon since. In that time we have seen WCML upgrade, ECML upgrade, numerous electrification schemes, trams in Manchester, Sheffield, London, new tubes, station upgrades, etc. In 1980 one could travel from Cardiff to London on a HST in 1hr45 the Manchester/London journey at time was >2hr 30. Today the same journeys are 2hr10m and ~2hr5min respectively. Bristol and Cardiff have got further away from London when compared to other major UK cities over the last 30 years. Even in Wales, today, the HST can only run at a top speed of <100mph at best...... The opportunity to electrify the GWML must be taken; after all the bulk of the £1Bn cost will be incurred 2014-2017 and not in the next four years anyway. Seems like a drop in the Ocean when compared to £18bn for CrossRail and even more for HS2 to Brum??

Could argue the same up North, takes twice as long to travel between Liverpool and Manchester now than it did 150 years ago!

 

[mumrar]

Could argue the same up North, takes twice as long to travel between Liverpool and Manchester now than it did 150 years ago!

wow, I'm impressed, you can now do Liverpool to Manchester in 48 minutes, but in 1860 it only took 24!! No wonder they called it 'Rocket'. It's 31mil 78ch, so that means the 1860 train averaged about 80mph, Respect!!

 

[Solaris]

Whilst I agree there is a strong case for electrifying the Manchester-Liverpool route, the point I was making was that there has been little substantive rail investment in Wales and SW England for >30 years. After all the £6Bn WCML upgrade does benefit Manchester and Liverpool; Manchester has its tram systems, etc. Wales is perhaps one of the few countries in Europe with “0” miles of electrified track. The current journey times between Cardiff-Swansea and Cardiff-Bristol are >60 mins – for <40 miles!! That is an even worse performance than the current Manchester-Liverpool journey time. And the Cardiff Valleys network is crying out for electrification. Clearly in tough times something has to give – I just don’t think it needs to or has to include GWML electrification.

 

[Greenback]

I think Wales/SW England are due some sort of rail investment. Since the last major upgrade in the 1970s when HST was introduced, there really has been nothing south or west of Swindon since. In that time we have seen WCML upgrade, ECML upgrade, numerous electrification schemes, trams in Manchester, Sheffield, London, new tubes, station upgrades, etc. In 1980 one could travel from Cardiff to London on a HST in 1hr45 the Manchester/London journey at time was >2hr 30. Today the same journeys are 2hr10m and ~2hr5min respectively. Bristol and Cardiff have got further away from London when compared to other major UK cities over the last 30 years. Even in Wales, today, the HST can only run at a top speed of <100mph at best...... The opportunity to electrify the GWML must be taken; after all the bulk of the £1Bn cost will be incurred 2014-2017 and not in the next four years anyway. Seems like a drop in the Ocean when compared to £18bn for CrossRail and even more for HS2 to Brum??

I couldn;t agree more, though I am likely biased because of my location!

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

I think Wales/SW England are due some sort of rail investment. Since the last major upgrade in the 1970s when HST was introduced, there really has been nothing south or west of Swindon since. In that time we have seen WCML upgrade, ECML upgrade, numerous electrification schemes, trams in Manchester, Sheffield, London, new tubes, station upgrades, etc. In 1980 one could travel from Cardiff to London on a HST in 1hr45 the Manchester/London journey at time was >2hr 30. Today the same journeys are 2hr10m and ~2hr5min respectively. Bristol and Cardiff have got further away from London when compared to other major UK cities over the last 30 years. Even in Wales, today, the HST can only run at a top speed of <100mph at best...... The opportunity to electrify the GWML must be taken; after all the bulk of the £1Bn cost will be incurred 2014-2017 and not in the next four years anyway. Seems like a drop in the Ocean when compared to £18bn for CrossRail and even more for HS2 to Brum??

There's a short section of 100mph running near Pyle actually & for West of Exeter St Thomas there's also a small section of 100mph running.

 

[WatcherZero]

1900 40 minutes
1950's 47 minutes
1960 45 minutes
Now upto 67 minutes

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

As an outsider, I just think it's a massive fiddle adding all of this padding, just so these private companies don't have to payout compensation under the passengers charter.

Quantity doesn't make up for the abysmal quality of service that people now have to put up with.

 

[ainsworth74]

1900 40 minutes
1950's 47 minutes
1960 45 minutes
Now upto 67 minutes

I'm not sure how your getting the journey between Manchester and Liverpool taking 67 minutes, as all the journeys I can see are timetabled for around 47 minutes.

 

[starrymarkb]

Suspect the 67mins is the all stops pacer

Also West of Exeter it is possible for a Sprinter to give faster journeys then the HSTs, Speeds are low and the Sprinter's power doors and faster acceleration give it the advantage

 

[ainsworth74]

Suspect the 67mins is the all stops pacer

Fair enough, but with three trains per hour all doing the journey in around 47mins I think its unfair to say that the journey between the two is much slower than in the past.

 

[northwichcat]

Suspect the 67mins is the all stops pacer

Or it could be a late running express that misses it's path by 15 minutes and has to follow a stopper until it reaches Manchester or Liverpool.

 

[mumrar]

1900 40 minutes
1950's 47 minutes
1960 45 minutes
Now upto 67 minutes

Yes, but aren't you deliberately comparing the fastest of the day, with the slowest of today? That and a 40 year shortfall to your original 150 years ago claim, and the last time I looked, half of 67, was 33.5 and not 40. A job in the media evidently awaits you with your convenient use of statistics to suit :P

 

[northwichcat]

The current journey times between Cardiff-Swansea and Cardiff-Bristol are >60 mins – for <40 miles!! That is an even worse performance than the current Manchester-Liverpool journey time.

Manchester-Liverpool isn't the worse journey time in the North West. One I know off the top of my head is Stockport to Chester is 75 minutes for just over 35 miles.

 

[WatcherZero]

your seriously quibbling over an 8% discrepancy on the broad phrase 'half'?

Yeah slower because the original routes no longer there, comparing like for like all stopper with all stopper, but now the routes longer with more stops.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

So if it has been cancelled what happens now? Life extend the HSTs again? Son of Voyager?

We can always start building Castles again.

I thought less than 2 weeks ago they were giving assurances GWML electrification and HS2 were a go. Nothing like making your mind up is there.:roll: