Electrification & Rolling Stock Cascade Impact Review

[anthony263]

Indeed, I recall the Porterbrook comments about their 153s, however comments heard recently that some winter services on the Cornish branches are only viable with single 153s, hence FGW have been looking at making their units compliant - these being Porterbrook owned units.

If the frame 'sagging' issues apparent on many 153s are not terminal, I would certainly entertain the idea of them reverting to 2-car 155s with a single DDA toilet or even 3-car units, in the case of Northern (Bogless 155 with a DDA bog 153 inserted?), plus Anglia, LM and ATW loosing their units to FGW, EMT and NOR amongst the previously noted re-shuffles.

The bodysag issue as I have pointed out before doesnt seem to be affecting the whole class 153 fleet. So I do think Poterbrook/Angel will keep the examples in best condition and reform them back into 2 carriage class 155's with the rest scrapped after being stripped for spare parts.

As Gareth has pointed out in another thread the Wales & Borders franchise looks to be getting a large batch of class 158's to be based at Llandore (and I suspect the Cambrian may get one or two additional units) from FGW so that should release the few class 150/153's from west wales and the heart of wales line.

The question is still unanswered about what will be used on the Blaenau festiniog branch come 2018.

I do have a suspision that the 3 carriage class 144's may find themselves running til at least 2026 if anything to allow the other dmu's to be refurbished

 

[northwichcat]

If the frame 'sagging' issues apparent on many 153s are not terminal, I would certainly entertain the idea of them reverting to 2-car 155s with a single DDA toilet or even 3-car units, in the case of Northern (Bogless 155 with a DDA bog 153 inserted?), plus Anglia, LM and ATW loosing their units to FGW, EMT and NOR amongst the previously noted re-shuffles.

While Metro have control over where the 7 x 155s can be used currently that won't be the case after the end of the current franchise. If 153s are converted to 155s then I think it'll make sense for operators to have either 155s or 156s rather than a mix for fleet consistency.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If 153s are converted to 155s then I think it'll make sense for operators to have either 155s or 156s rather than a mix for fleet consistency.

I agree. That sounds like a good idea, the only probably might be if one TOC needs more than the whole fleet of one class.

In my opinion, after ValleyLines electrification, Wales' DMU fleet should be three classes: 175s, 158s and either 155s or 156s. If Wrexham-Bidston isn't electrified I suggest transfering it to Northern or using a 150 hired from them.

 

[158722]

I agree. That sounds like a good idea, the only probably might be if one TOC needs more than the whole fleet of one class.

In my opinion, after ValleyLines electrification, Wales' DMU fleet should be three classes: 175s, 158s and either 155s or 156s. If Wrexham-Bidston isn't electrified I suggest transfering it to Northern or using a 150 hired from them.

I totally agree with any reshuffling which concentrates classes at the smallest number of operators, the current mix is just ridiculous in terms of overall efficiency. If the 153/155s are kept on, in whatever format, I would wager that they will be concentrated at NOR, GW and EMT, in that order, with EA loosing theirs in return for a few more 156s or 170s, LM will be loosing theirs and trio of 150s when the wires go up beyond Walsall whilst the suggestion that ATW will loose theirs in favor of a few more 158s seems logical. 156s freed up from ScotRail to EMT, displacing their 153s to NOR, along with the EA ones, whilst GW gets the LM and ATW ones?

 

[northwichcat]

I would wager that they will be concentrated at NOR, GW and EMT, in that order, with EA loosing theirs in return for a few more 156s or 170s

Note Northern have 42 x 156s, 7 x 155s and 18 x 153s.

Reforming 153s in to 155s would give you a maximum of 42 x 155s so to me the more logical option would be for the 155s to be split between EMT and Anglia with Northern and FGW taking on additional 156s released by Anglia and EMT.

LM could take on the LO 172s (following electrification) and then release the rest of their Sprinters.

ATW could cascade 150s off the Valley Lines (following electrification) to replace their 153s.

 

[Silv1983]

Er the last 319 was completed in 1990. Do you mean the 377/7? The first two were completed before xmas with 701 running around on the test track. 703/704 have been completed with 705-708 well under way.

Sorry I slipped off on a tangent. I was referring to the refurbishment/overhaul of 'the six' prior to their release in May.

 

[59CosG95]

That's correct of Northern as discussions are supposed to be ongoing but regardless of what happens with Northern, the six 319s are being cascaded away from Thameslink within months.

I've completely forgotten-will the 319's get retractioned when they go up north, or will they stick with their growling DC motors? I hope at least the deepest cleans they can be offered are given.

 

[Manchester77]

No retraction ing however porterbrook have shown a DDA compliant refurb

 

[Silv1983]

Northern have also insisted they be done on the cheap. No reshaping of the cab ends and no drivers' cab overhaul. Just tidied.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hmm... Why? Not want to pay the higher lease costs?

 

[Manchester77]

Or maybe the franchise won't last for much longer following introduction so while minor refreshes could be made it's not worth a full refurbishment.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I totally agree with any reshuffling which concentrates classes at the smallest number of operators, the current mix is just ridiculous in terms of overall efficiency. If the 153/155s are kept on, in whatever format, I would wager that they will be concentrated at NOR, GW and EMT, in that order, with EA loosing theirs in return for a few more 156s or 170s, LM will be loosing theirs and trio of 150s when the wires go up beyond Walsall whilst the suggestion that ATW will loose theirs in favor of a few more 158s seems logical. 156s freed up from ScotRail to EMT, displacing their 153s to NOR, along with the EA ones, whilst GW gets the LM and ATW ones?

If Wales is just going to have 158s and 175s as DMUs then, a fair few them will be spending alot of time on lines which are 75mph max. Wales might need more than a few extra 158s too depending on whether the Manchester-South Wales services are terminated at Cardiff and whether Carmarthen/Pembrokeshire gets an hourly direct express service to Cardiff to replace the Manchesters.

ATW could cascade 150s off the Valley Lines (following electrification) to replace their 153s.

Except that, once the ValleyLines are electrified, class 150s wouldn't be appropriate for most ATW routes. Apart from the regional express routes, ATW has:

• West of Swansea services (too long to travel on a 150 from Swansea to Pembrokeshire)
• Heart Of Wales Line (also too long)
• Cardiff - Cheltenham (also too long, and might have 90mph sections)
• Crewe - Shrewsbury stopper shuttle (potential 150 route, but it ammouts to 1 diagram I think so might as well combine it with HOWL and it becomes too long for a 150)
• Wrexham - Bidston (potential 150 route, as mentioned above)
• Conwy Valley (a rural island in a sea of regional express, awkward)

 

[northwichcat]

Except that, once the ValleyLines are electrified, class 150s wouldn't be appropriate for most ATW routes. Apart from the regional express routes, ATW has:

• West of Swansea services (too long to travel on a 150 from Swansea to Pembrokeshire)
• Heart Of Wales Line (also too long)
• Cardiff - Cheltenham (also too long, and might have 90mph sections)
• Crewe - Shrewsbury stopper shuttle (potential 150 route, but it ammouts to 1 diagram I think so might as well combine it with HOWL and it becomes too long for a 150)
• Wrexham - Bidston (potential 150 route, as mentioned above)
• Conwy Valley (a rural island in a sea of regional express, awkward)

I'm afraid your argument that ATW shouldn't have 150s would also apply to Northern and FGW and someone will have to use them until they are withdrawn.

Cardiff-Cheltenham is shorter than a number of routes Northern use Pacers on never mind 150s. Northern's 'South Manchester' diesel services run on sections that have 90mph running yet get 75mph 142s, 150s and 156s despite a path shortage.

Swansea-Pembroke Dock I would say is ideally too long for a train with 3+2 seating but as the ATW 150s have 2+2 seating and tables I wouldn't say the 150s are unsuitable. Up until 2008 150s with 3+2 seating were used on the longer Buxton to Blackpool service and that's a much shorter service than what 150s were used on when new!

So 158s on the HOW line and 150s on the rest would be in line with what parts of England get.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Swansea-Pembroke Dock I would say is ideally too long for a train with 3+2 seating but as the ATW 150s have 2+2 seating and tables I wouldn't say the 150s are unsuitable.

There aren't many tables, and they are horribly cramped for a journey of much over an hour (as are the 153s at present, but that could be fixed if reformed into 2-car sets and refurbished with better legroom and perhaps a couple more tables). It would be hard to get a suitable interior layout on 150s given they have 20m vehicles and 'middly doors' which interupt the interior.

A 150 would be ok for Swansea-Carmarthen, or perhaps Pembroke Dock - Whitland, but not both.

So 158s on the HOW line and 150s on the rest would be in line with what parts of England get.

158s on HOWL? The linespeed's a bit slow for a 90mph unit isn't it, which is why I've suggested using 155s or 156s on it. I suppose it might work quite well with the number of additional 158s it has been suggested Wales might get, hopefully leaving five 158s free for Milford Haven/Carmarthen-Cardiff express services.

 

[northwichcat]

There aren't many tables, and they are horribly cramped for a journey of much over an hour (as are the 153s at present, but that could be fixed if reformed into 2-car sets and refurbished with better legroom and perhaps a couple more tables). It would be hard to get a interior suitable layout on 150s given they have 20m vehicles and 'middly doors' which interupt the interior.

Try travelling on a Northern 150 - either a refurbished one or a non-refurbished one - the ATW 150s are spacious in comparison. The fold down tables which the 'non table' seats have are better than what a lot of trains have.

158s on HOWL? The linespeed's a bit slow for a 90mph unit isn't it, which is why I've suggested using 155s or 156s on it.

On the same basis some of the LM 170s should be replaced by 155s or 156s. There's always going to be one or two routes that don't get ideal stock if you try to have consistent fleets.

Which lines should get the ATW 150s you want to cascade away in your opinion, noting that the seated capacity is too low for many services in single formation and running them in double isn't the most cost-effective solution.

 

[tbtc]

Apart from the regional express routes, ATW has:

• West of Swansea services (too long to travel on a 150 from Swansea to Pembrokeshire)
• Heart Of Wales Line (also too long)

They are lines where you don't need to go over 75mph - what do you mean by "too long"?

Maybe stick some more comfortable seats in them, but there's no problem with such distances in England.

If you are so obsessed with 155s/156s in that area, would you be happy with 153s? There's going to be some of them spare (with scope for doubling up, obviously)

 

[northwichcat]

They are lines where you don't need to go over 75mph - what do you mean by "too long"?

Maybe stick some more comfortable seats in them, but there's no problem with such distances in England.

If you are so obsessed with 155s/156s in that area, would you be happy with 153s? There's going to be some of them spare (with scope for doubling up, obviously)

I think Rhydgaled is assuming the 153s are reformed in to 155s following on from 158722's suggestion.

 

[Class172]

On the same basis some of the LM 170s should be replaced by 155s or 156s. There's always going to be one or two routes that don't get ideal stock if you try to have consistent fleets.

Well wind back the clock a couple of decades and there were 155s running between Hereford and Birmingham, so it's nothing new.

 

[northwichcat]

Well wind back the clock a couple of decades and there were 155s running between Hereford and Birmingham, so it's nothing new.

I was thinking of LM tagging 153s on to 170s restricting the top speed of the formation to 75mph in response to Rhydgaled's comment about 158s not being suitable for a route which doesn't get up to 90mph.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I was thinking of LM tagging 153s on to 170s restricting the top speed of the formation to 75mph in response to Rhydgaled's comment about 158s not being suitable for a route which doesn't get up to 90mph.

I wasn't saying that 158s wouldn't be suitable for HOWL and Swansea-Pembs., just that it seems a bit wasteful when refurbished 155s or 156s could do the job just as well.

 

[anthony263]

Maybe refurbished class 155's or 156's would be better for services in West Wales however I think it is likely that the DFT would like to keep the fleets with the same operators i.e class 155's with say FGW & GA with EMT & Northern having the class 156 fleet.

It does make sense and as Gareth mentioned a month or two ago it looks like the Wales & Borders franchise will be getting the class 158's from FGW after they have been reformed into 2 carriages units once again for use on services from the Llandore depot as that is transfered from FGW post IEP. I have done the west wales branches on a 158 and the heart of wales line on a 175 and the trip is much more plesant compared to a class 150 or 153.

It 158's do seem to have beetter acceleration than the class 150's so keeping to time should be better especially on the Pembroke Dock branch. If direct services from London - Pembroke Dock on summer saturdays are withdrawn then I can imagine services from Swansea to Pembroke Dock at 1205 like it is now being formed of a pair of 158's if there is a large amount of passengers.

The loss of direct services on summer saturdays may be a bad thing however some of this could be offset by having a much improved local service which is reliable and connects with the London services @ Swansea.

Of course the Blaenau Festiniog branch is the one line which I think we will have to wait & see what operates it. Just for convenience I coudl imagine the branch being wired if/when the line to Holyhead is done so

 

[Greybeard33]

I wasn't saying that 158s wouldn't be suitable for HOWL and Swansea-Pembs., just that it seems a bit wasteful when refurbished 155s or 156s could do the job just as well.

It is equally "wasteful" to use 158s on the Kyle line - perhaps they should be swapped for 155s/156s?

 

[Rhydgaled]

If direct services from London - Pembroke Dock on summer saturdays are withdrawn then I can imagine services from Swansea to Pembroke Dock at 1205 like it is now being formed of a pair of 158's if there is a large amount of passengers.

The loss of direct services on summer saturdays may be a bad thing however some of this could be offset by having a much improved local service which is reliable and connects with the London services @ Swansea.

The problem there is you need are large number of additional units available for that summer strenthening. Based on the numbers I've seen using the Pembroke Dock branch (and in particular the Pembroke Coast Express) on summer Saturdays you need at least double the number of coaches that are provided most of the year.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It is equally "wasteful" to use 158s on the Kyle line - perhaps they should be swapped for 155s/156s?

Indeed - and the use within Scotland of 158 on such services as Motherwell -Cumbernauld ought to be questioned on economic and other grounds - was the only passenger one day last year at 1000 am.......(however - "this is a matter for Scotland" - one does wonder though .....

 

[thealexweb]

The Bolton to Wigan North Western route will be electrified by December 2017. Please add the possible changes to the first post

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...tment_to_electrify_Bolton___Wigan_train_line/

 

[WatcherZero]

We dont really know what it frees up though, as apart from some Wigan-Victoria shuttles theres no current routes that could just be converted as they either start in Southport/Kirkby or go via Atherton. The press release mentions airport services being converted but there is currently no service that starts at Wigan and goes to the Airport as it originates in Southport (and TPE Airports are already electric via Chat Moss).

 

[tbtc]

We dont really know what it frees up though, as apart from some Wigan-Victoria shuttles theres no current routes that could just be converted as they either start in Southport/Kirkby or go via Atherton. The press release mentions airport services being converted but there is currently no service that starts at Wigan and goes to the Airport as it originates in Southport (and TPE Airports are already electric via Chat Moss).

Presumably Kirby will be a stand alone shuttle by then?

Run a half hourly Southport - Wigan - Atherton - Victoria service (poss on to Rochdale etc) and then everything else on the Wigan diagrams (inc Wigan - Airport) can be EMU run.

I'm guessing that there are going to be a lot of recasts over the next five years, as electrification is completed bit-by-bit

 

[YorkshireBear]

This is what annoys me about electrification announcements, some people presume service patterns can never change..... This was particularly relevant for my North TPE work.

 

[WatcherZero]

Quite the opposite, im assuming change but we have no idea what that change will be so we cant quantify the stock released. i.e. we cant extrapolate from todays service patterns.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is what annoys me about electrification announcements, some people presume service patterns can never change..... This was particularly relevant for my North TPE work.

Agreed. Look for example at all the discussions about the GW Bedwyn service with wiring only going to Newbury - the starting assumption always seems to have been that Bedwyn must always have exactly the same service as today.