Electrifcation - it's on!

[scandal]

I note the torys have said that there is no money in the DfT budget to 2014 for this electrification and they want to know what is being cut to fund it. With comments like that I think further electrification may be on hold from the "greener" modern conservatives who havea lready pledged significant cuts.

Notes. Interview on BBC News with shadow transport minister.

 

[johnb]

Its about time...but it will leave a lot of obsolete trains...

Not really: it's being done because the HSTs will be life-expired, so the new electric fast trains will replace them. And there's plenty of demand in the west and the north for diesel units to extend services, so the displaced 165s and 166s won't go idle either.

 

[djw1981]

Added to which, the HST could easily go to XC, and for interurban routes (WAG train, Norwich-Liverpool, etc - maybe with 5-6 carriages, also OA operators like them.

 

[Mystic Force]

There is no mention of the factory trains in this news snd for this relatively short initial section might not be justified as an upfront exspense therebye jeopordising the cost effectiveness of follow on schemes which would not be the case with the MML going first.

 

[bangor-toad]

There is no mention of the factory trains in this news snd for this relatively short initial section might not be justified as an upfront exspense therebye jeopordising the cost effectiveness of follow on schemes which would not be the case with the MML going first.

Whilst there is little mention of the factory trains in the news, they are mentioned in Points 72 and 73 of the main DfT document. It looks as if they are going to be built and used quite extensively.

Wonder if they'll br ready in time for Crossrail?

Cheers,
Jason

 

[43021HST]

Most people already know that it will be electrified:roll:

 

[Aictos]

Goodness me, what an atrocity that will be. The 319s are past it!

Not really because if you fully read the document you would know that they will be receiving a full refurbishment including air conditioning so seeing how good the 455s look after their refurbishments by Southern and South West Trains and they're older then the 319s, I don't think it's such a bad idea.

If you were going to be getting 313s then yes, I do see your point but I don't so get used to it that 319s will be used,

 

[Mystic Force]

I am glad to hear they are doing it the way they proposed in the report I am reading this on my mobile so unable to read the pdf but will as soon as I get to a computer

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Also the fact that they expect Crossrail to serve Reading when it opens in 8 years time.

Positive news.

 

[philjo]

I did read somewhere that once the GN route has received all of its new rolling stock for the thameslink programme (i.e. for services from GN routes running though london in 2015), then the 365s currently used out of KX would also be cascaded elsewhere.

 

[Techniquest]

Interesting news, and it's been a fair while coming. 2016 for the first of the new trains to hit the Western, not far off what I've been reckoning for quite some time that! Swansea to be juiced by the end of 2017, lovely. Another 8 years of HSTs to Swansea then! By then I anticipate having had all the HST power cars out of Swansea, which is one of the missions I've got going on. Proving harder than first thought mind!

To think juicing up of the Western was proposed way back in 1984 and now, 25 years on, it's finally going to happen.

Glad to hear that the redevelopment of Reading is finally starting.

Now to look forward to the engineering blockades causing potentially interesting diversions whilst the wires go up!

 

[The Planner]

Cant see there being anything out of the ordinary to be honest. Berks and Hants and via Westbury, possbily Greenford and the Chilterns and the Bicester chord if Evergreen 3 comes off. Anything else thats needed will be a total block and bustitution. If the wiring trains come in, then 8 hour overnight blocks doing a mile a night apparently.

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes but if the 350s move northbound, what's going to replace them?

I'd imagine it's only the /1s that shift North, with their long distance configuration inside. DfT looks set to order more for LM local services, so they'd probably be replaced by new builds. I'm intrigued what will happen to the LM Crewe service though.

 

[Techniquest]

Cant see there being anything out of the ordinary to be honest. Berks and Hants and via Westbury, possbily Greenford and the Chilterns and the Bicester chord if Evergreen 3 comes off. Anything else thats needed will be a total block and bustitution. If the wiring trains come in, then 8 hour overnight blocks doing a mile a night apparently.

True, was trying to think of stuff after my previous post but aside from Waterloo whilst wires get put up between Twyford and Slough (or something) then nothing comes to mind that I haven't already done on HSTs. Well, unless Greenford and the Chilterns and Bicester happens! Will be hoping Evergreen 3 comes off ASAP!

 

[Metroland]

Network Rail is currently planning to re-signal sections of the Great Western
Main Line linked to the plan to install in-cab signalling, the European Rail
Traffic Management System, on the route. This will provide ‘immunised
signalling’ which does not suffer interference from overhead line equipment,
and is therefore an essential prerequisite to electrification. The Department
anticipates that careful co-ordination of the re-signalling work with the
electrification work will minimise any disruption and keep overall costs down.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/railelectrification.pdf

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Interview on BBC News with shadow transport minister.

I heard that. She had nothing to say but rhetoric.

 

[turbo mick]

i,ll see it when it happens we are getting diesel units in 3 yrs at Reading depot never beleive what the goverment says western region has always been diesel apart from heathrow link and if crossrail starts then maybe HST has a few more years in them yet

 

[thelem]

Apparently diesel trains pollute the environment more than electric trains...

Consider these images (which, BTW, are not mine and were found on Google)

That's not exactly fair, for a start the majority of the 'smoke' from that power station pic is actually harmless steam. The nasty stuff comes from the small chimneys, and is often invisible. The power station will also service more than one trainset.

Having said that, electric does not mean carbon neutral. There are huge challenges for generation, with no real solution even on the cards, let alone in use.

 

[90019]

Locally, pollution will be reduced by the introduction of electric trains

Not reduced, just moved.
All electric trains do is move the source of emission from the train to the power plant.

I do wonder if we take into account the energy used to put in place the infrastructure for electric trains, and the emissions from producing them, as well as producing the power, and compare it to the same costs for a diesel, how they compare emissionswise, and if the actual train is cleaner, how long the electric takes before it balances out with the diesel and overtakes it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's not exactly fair, for a start the majority of the 'smoke' from that power station pic is actually harmless steam.

Indeed, the largest ones in the pic are just cooling towers; the majority of the pollutants are colourless and emittied from other chimneys (Carbon Dioxide, Carbon Monoxide, Nitrous Oxide, etc.)

 

[WillPS]

Apparently diesel trains pollute the environment more than electric trains...

Consider these images (which, BTW, are not mine and were found on Google):

I think not! However, I'm playing Devil’s advocate there.

Locally, pollution will be reduced by the introduction of electric trains, and journey times will be reduced. This is a positive thing.

However, our beloved diesel trains that make loads of noise and smell amazing will be gone!

My solution to please everyone would be to soak the new electric trains in diesel to make them smell nice, and attach a speaker to the traction motors so that every time the train moves, the noise of a diesel is played!

A good move by the government, if it ever gets pulled off! Will certainly keep me in work in the next 10 years!

Even with the dirtiest form of electricity produced, an InterCity 225 set has a lot lower carbon footprint than a 125 equivalent.

Having said that, electric does not mean carbon neutral. There are huge challenges for generation, with no real solution even on the cards, let alone in use.

It's scary, but technology will prevail and sort something out. There will be a way to become sustainable, even if it means going Nuclear for a while.

 

[Kneedown]

MML will get done, you can bet your house on that one.

I sincerely hope you're right, but i now have grave doubts. as i've said in another thread, if it was going to happen then why wasn't it announced yesterday?
It's a line that would benefit far more than the GW from electrification and should really have been first on the list.
I can't help feeling that the "announcement in a few months" will not be forthcoming and will be quietly forgotten about.
Even if the go ahead is given, will the work start and reach a point of no return, before the Tories win the next election and put a stop to it?

 

[jopsuk]

Right, see, here, everything that comes out of those big round things is nothing but water. They're cooling towers- used to cool the steam form the boilers and feed it back into the system. Coal stations if next to the sea cn run without them- they have sealed pipe work running under water- for example, Longannet:

Even from the two chimneys in your image you can see most of what you actually see is again condensed water vapour. Most coal stations in this country have electrostatic systems in their chimney stacks that filter out particulates (smoke) as ash. Longannet is actually built on land reclaimed using ash from the now demolished Kincardine power station, from both he furnaces and the chimney systems.

On the other hand, what is seen coming out of that HST is unburnt and part burnt hydrocarbons- a nasty mix of asthma triggering, carcinogenic particulates and CO.

You cannot, in any picture shown, see CO2. It can only be seen when soild.


Incidentally, if you take a photo of a steam train cruising along (not accelerating hard) on a warm and dry day, you'll see very little exhaust, as again, most of what you actually see from them is condensed water vapour. If the fire is not being overstoked, then it will burn quite cleanly, producing little particulate. The steam won't so readily condense, so it'll look like almost nothing is coming out.

 

[route:oxford]

From the DfT document...

Existing modern diesel trains that operate the suburban services into
London Paddington can then be transferred to provide additional capacity
on services in the Bristol area and the South West as well as releasing
vehicles that can then be deployed to deliver additional capacity in key
Northern cities.

Maybe it's because I've always enjoyed the series "Yes (Prime) Minister" but when I read the document my mind automatically inserted "key marginal constituencies" instead of "key Northern cities"

 

[Oswyntail]

From the DfT document...



Maybe it's because I've always enjoyed the series "Yes (Prime) Minister" but when I read the document my mind automatically inserted "key marginal constituencies" instead of "key Northern cities"

Agreed (though that doesn't leave many left to ignore). Surely they would have don Sheffield, Manchester-Leeds, all round Lancashire and Yorkshire and the North East first.

 

[johnb]

I sincerely hope you're right, but i now have grave doubts. as i've said in another thread, if it was going to happen then why wasn't it announced yesterday?
It's a line that would benefit far more than the GW from electrification and should really have been first on the list.
I can't help feeling that the "announcement in a few months" will not be forthcoming and will be quietly forgotten about.
Even if the go ahead is given, will the work start and reach a point of no return, before the Tories win the next election and put a stop to it?

At least one mainline needs to be electrified now, so that life-expired HSTs can be replaced with new electric stock. And the first one needs to be the GWML, because Reading remodelling and Crossrail electrification are already happening.

The MML also needs to be electrified fairly soon, as there isn't enough fast diesel stock once the HSTs have been withdrawn to cover it plus XC plus ECML to Inverness/Aberdeen plus WCML to Holyhead plus the Berks & Hants, and it's got the best BCR of the possible projects.

But as long as we can keep the most reliable HSTs in operation until 2020, the MML programme can kick off three years after the GWML programme (and hence planning can be based on lessons that'll already be being learnt on the GWML).

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Think the GWML was choosen over the MML simply because of the IEP project to replace the HST on the GW means its a now or alot later think where as the MML is less important in that sense.

Hopefully by the time they start doing the GWML plans for the MML will be done and trains can move straight from GWML to MML without a job. That way would keep skills up and prove useful employment in the longer term.

 

[Mojo]

Also possibly down to the fact that most of the local services on the London end of the GWML are still diesel whereas the wires stretch all the way to Bedford on MML. Obviously many local services are to change with Crossrail, but you'll still have Oxford and those stations.

 

[tbtc]

Hopefully by the time they start doing the GWML plans for the MML will be done and trains can move straight from GWML to MML without a job. That way would keep skills up and prove useful employment in the longer term.

Interesting idea - you could keep a rolling programme going that way, from the GWML to the MML to Transpennine to the infils on the WCML to putting up something 21st century on the ECML to... (and on, and on)

(if we had a bit of "joined up thinking", of course)

 

[Mystic Force]

According to the original report it was proposed that there would be electrification units and after the GWML and MML these two would move on to other lines. This suggest that it will be reduced to one electrification unit that will do GWML then MML meaning that although we would have a rolling program it would roll much slower than originally envisioned. that looks like a cost cutting measure to me.

 

[Chafford1]

But as long as we can keep the most reliable HSTs in operation until 2020, the MML programme can kick off three years after the GWML programme (and hence planning can be based on lessons that'll already be being learnt on the GWML).

I've heard DfT are looking at the possibility of life extending the HSTs to 2030 - with impending budget cuts, GWML may get these rather than electrification.