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Electrical Supply Problem(s) 02 May

ChilliSauce

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I thought most modern traction rectifies the 25kV50Hz to DC which then goes into the traction inverters.
Which is partly why it's fairly easy to make dual voltage 750vDC/25kV50Hz units; as either way you're feeding the inverters with DC.

In which case, why is the frequency of the AC supply so critical?
The Harmonic will be a derivative of the fundamental frequency 3rd, 5th, 7th etc. so as the fundamental frequency changes so will the Harmonic.

Remember also with DC traction this is in effect either 6 pulse or 12 pulse rectified AC so if the frequency of the AC input changes so will the frequency of the pulse output ..
 
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sharpener

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I suspect that as the traction control shut down is designed to protect signalling equipment, it employs the same methodology if it assumes that unacceptable frequencies are a result of a wrong side failure of the traction control system.

As I remember it the widespread failures of the 7xx in 2019 were ulimately because there is a large choke in the power circuit on them for interference suppression. If the frequency falls too low this choke is prone to overheat (impedance Z = 2[pi]fL) so there is a switch-off point in the software, why this needs to be so close to the -0.5% limit on supply frequency beats me.

The internal frequencies used by the power converters vary continuously over a massive range according to output power and input conditions; the fundamental frequencies and their harmonics go all the way from sub-audio frequencies up into megahertz at least (theoretically to infinity) and they can be anything within that band - they don't leave convenient gaps coinciding with frequencies used for AC track circuits or to which the signalling system is otherwise unusually susceptible. (And if they did leave such gaps, it would have to be done by the control software of the power converters deliberately skipping certain frequency bands, which it would do based on its own internal timing reference.)
IIRC the motor drives do exactly this, it partly accounts for the jumps in the frequency of the whine you hear as the train accelerates.
 

edwin_m

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The Harmonic will be a derivative of the fundamental frequency 3rd, 5th, 7th etc. so as the fundamental frequency changes so will the Harmonic.

Remember also with DC traction this is in effect either 6 pulse or 12 pulse rectified AC so if the frequency of the AC input changes so will the frequency of the pulse output ..
The harmonic is a multiple of the fundamental frequency not a derivative.

According to the link below (not easily quotable) the Reed track circuit frequencies range from 366Hz to 408Hz (plus 360Hz on DC lines only). Only the 400Hz mains harmonic falls within this range and the nearest Reed frequency is 408Hz which would require the mains to go up to 51Hz to create this harmonic. A maximum of 50.5Hz creates a margin of safety. The next Reed frequency below 400Hz is 384Hz which would require the mains frequency to drop to 48Hz.


But if either of these took place, the only way to prevent interference finding its way into the track circuit would be to prevent any train drawing current.
 

Pigeon

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The traction electronics and its controlling software do indeed have to avoid the signalling frequencies and their sub-harmonics.

Great, cheers for that.

The harmonic is a multiple of the fundamental frequency not a derivative.

According to the link below (not easily quotable) the Reed track circuit frequencies range from 366Hz to 408Hz (plus 360Hz on DC lines only). Only the 400Hz mains harmonic falls within this range and the nearest Reed frequency is 408Hz which would require the mains to go up to 51Hz to create this harmonic. A maximum of 50.5Hz creates a margin of safety. The next Reed frequency below 400Hz is 384Hz which would require the mains frequency to drop to 48Hz.

http://dickthesignals.co.uk/onewebmedia/3954_001.pdf

But if either of these took place, the only way to prevent interference finding its way into the track circuit would be to prevent any train drawing current.

Many thanks for that, most interesting. I haven't read all of it yet but the important bit for the purposes of this discussion seems to be right at the start:

linked PDF said:
The reed track circuit equipment type RT, which may be jointed or jointless, is a development of the reed remote control equipment type RR and may be used on all electrified and non-electrified lines on B.R. It employs circuits which are tuned to a very high Q factor by means of the electromechanical tuning fork principle, having a pair of vibrating reeds which are used to produce a band pass filter which has a bandwidth of about 1Hz and a very stable centre frequency. For track circuit equipment, the frequencies are chosen to lie between harmonics of the mains power supply frequency and the standard sets of frequencies lie between the 7th and 8th harmonics and between the 8th and 9th harmonics, the narrow bandwidth allowing channel spacings down to 3Hz.

That's very good, and clearly does give a good margin against interference by mains harmonics even with the maximum permitted frequency variation. And it is worth emphasising that such harmonics are produced by any train, not just ones with electronic power conversion equipment.
 

edwin_m

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That's very good, and clearly does give a good margin against interference by mains harmonics even with the maximum permitted frequency variation. And it is worth emphasising that such harmonics are produced by any train, not just ones with electronic power conversion equipment.
Indeed. It's been said that if someone invented camshaft control (as used by SR slam-door units and the 442 and 455) today it would never get a safety case. Phase angle control (used by AC-only stock built in the 80s) basically chopped off the supply waveform to control the current to the motors, leading to large amounts of mains harmonics in the supply.

But with the advent of AC motors in the mid-90s there was a real risk that the variable-frequency drives would produce a harmonic in the supply at one of the critical frequencies. A similar current to the track circuit itself (of the order of 1 amp in a traction return of hundreds or thousands of amps) at the "wrong" frequency could produce a wrong-side failure in a track circuit and essentially disappear a train from the signalling. This is one reason for the difficulties in introduction of the Networkers, having to demonstrate that this could effectively never happen particularly under fault conditions. It was initially solved by fitting an Interference Current Monitoring Unit, separate from the traction itself but able to shut it down if necessary.

Other track circuit types are less susceptible, as they would have to see several unlikely things happening at the same time to produce a wrong side failure. Other signalling equipment has some of the same issues, but less critically as it isn't electrically connected to the rails.
 
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Belperpete

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As somebody very aware about EMC and its affect on normal radio I am a bit puzzled by your explanation. How can a few percentage change in the 50Hz frequency affect the accuracy of things like track circuits (presumably working at dc)? Or does the signalling system itself use similar low frequency data which can clash from the close proximity of magnetic radiation from the traction motors? And at 50Hz all the coupling will be by magnetic fields rather than normal RF frequency coupling.
Apologies if I didn't make it clear, but the issue isn't the signalling equipment varying it's frequencies, but all the other equipment that produce interference frequencies producing an even wider spectrum of interference frequencies, if the grid were to be allowed to deviate its frequencies even further.

Only very simple track circuits work on DC. Any used in a DC traction area can't use DC. And any track circuit in an AC traction area can't use 50Hz AC. And a track circuit in a dual traction area, or where there might be interference from an adjacent source, can't use either DC or 50hz ac. Early electrification systems used frequencies specially generated, the Southern used 75hz for example, and many early ac electrification schemes used 83.3 hz. However, generating and distributing these special frequencies was expensive, and so other solutions were sought.

The RT type track circuit used a single frequency for each track circuit, with neighbouring track circuits using different frequencies. The frequencies are produced by tuned reeds, which are very stable and inherently immune to fluctuations in the supply frequency. However, the system is obviously reliant on the frequencies it uses not being generated elsewhere, as such interference could result in false operation of the track circuit. Later types of track circuit, such as the TI21, use frequency modulation techniques. If such track circuits are subject to interference at the critical frequencies, they will still fail, but at least they will fail in a safe mode. However, that could still be highly disruptive, particularly if significant numbers were to subject to interference.

Track circuits and the traction supply are directly connected, as they both use the running rails. However, the issue is not just track circuits. Point detection circuits in dual traction areas also have to be immune to both traction supplies, so also used similar immunisation methods, including equipment based on the RR/RT system.

The RR reed system had dozens of frequency channels. As I recall, there was a hierarchy of frequencies, with safety critical functions having a restricted frequency set. The RT track circuits, for example, used only the 8 (as I recall) most immune frequencies. However, non safety critical functions in frequency division multiplex FDM systems could use a much wider range of frequencies.

Both GEC and Westinghouse (the two main UK signalling suppliers) produced FDM systems, but I think only GEC's RR/RT systems could be used for safety critical functions. The Westinghouse system only saw limited use in the UK, but the GEC equipment was widely used, especially for track circuits. For a long time, it was one of only two permitted types of jointless track circuit.

Whilst track circuits are the biggest issue, signalling schemes in the 1980s and later used FDM equipment quite extensively. FDM was useful as a multi drop system, used for dropping off individual controls such as automatic signals replacements along long sections of plain line, and picking up individual track circuit indications. Doing this with direct wire circuits could get very expensive, particularly in ac traction areas where signalling circuits are limited to a maximum of 2km length, to avoid the possibility of large voltages being induced on them.

Many signalling schemes also used FDM as a backup means of sending override controls in case the main TDM remote control failed. And as it used voice frequencies, FDM was also useful for sending circuits via direct BT and BRT lines, especially as BT started to move away from through copper circuits.

So there is potentially a LOT of legacy signalling equipment around that could be affected by any move to allow a wider variation in the grid frequency, and the consequent wider spread in harmonic interference frequencies that could lead to.
 

davews

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So it is not an EMC interference issue as we normally know it but using the same bit of wire (ie the rails) for both the return path of the traction supply and the path of the track signals. With the size of the traction current (many many amps) and the relatively low levels used for track circuits I am not surprised there is a problem which must be a nightmare for the track circuit designers. Thanks for the explanation, must look into more detail about how track circuits work.
 

thecrofter

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So it is not an EMC interference issue as we normally know it but using the same bit of wire (ie the rails) for both the return path of the traction supply and the path of the track signals. With the size of the traction current (many many amps) and the relatively low levels used for track circuits I am not surprised there is a problem which must be a nightmare for the track circuit designers. Thanks for the explanation, must look into more detail about how track circuits work.
A fact that also has to be considered by Traction Power Designers and that the railway has to be treated as a system - not just by the individual discipline engineers. Interefence from traction return current is managed in many ways e.g. Simple rail return, Return Conductor (RC), RC with Booster Transformers and laterly Return Screening Conductor (RSC). All trying to minimise the unwanted effects on signalling systems. Even Axle Counters have been affected by traction current particularly when situated near a 'noisy' electrical environment e.g. a Neutral Section. Stafford resignalling springs to mind!
 

edwin_m

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Axle counting must be easier to immunise?
Yes, as there is no electrical contact between the circuit and the rail. However, any cable that run along the track can be susceptible to induced interference, with a wide range of factors determining whether it is a problem or not.

Many years ago I was involved in a test where we used the overhead line and rails of the tram line between Birkbeck and Beckhanham as a giant induction loop connected to a signal generator, and measured the amount of current appearing in the rails of the adjacent National Rail line (both under possession I hasten to add!).
 

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