Electric HST

[GrimShady]

Does anyone know if the proposed Electric version of the HST get to the design phase before being cancelled?

If so are there any drawings or other renderings around?

Would there have been two pantographs in operation? This was an issue with APT-P but that may have been due to the speeds BR had hoped for APT.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Does anyone know if the proposed Electric version of the HST get to the design phase before being cancelled?

If so are there any drawings or other renderings around?

Would there have been two pantographs in operation? This was an issue with APT-P but that may have been due to the speeds BR had hoped for APT.

From what I have read, I don't think the proposal to convert/construct these actually got that far. At the time (late 1980s) it was said to be possible to convert existing class 43 powercars but non could be spared from revenue earning service at that time. An order was apparently placed for five prototype HST(E) powercars to be built from scratch, this was at a similar time to Brush Traction performing commissioned design work on a prototype 125 mph. Co-Co electric locomotive (to be designated class 89) initially intended for hauling ECML passenger services. BR soon realised that this locomotives potential ability to work sleeper and freight service as well as normal IC services gave it an advantage over the fixed consist HST(E), the order for which therefore was quite rapidly cancelled.

 

[GrimShady]

From what I have read, I don't think the proposal to convert/construct these actually got that far. At the time (late 1980s) it was said to be possible to convert existing class 43 powercars but non could be spared from revenue earning service at that time. An order was apparently placed for five prototype HST(E) powercars to be built from scratch, this was at a similar time to Brush Traction performing commissioned design work on a prototype 125 mph. Co-Co electric locomotive (to be designated class 89) initially intended for hauling ECML passenger services. BR soon realised that this locomotives potential ability to work sleeper and freight service as well as normal IC services gave it an advantage over the fixed consist HST(E), the order for which therefore was quite rapidly cancelled.

Thanks for the info Ash.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Does anyone know if the proposed Electric version of the HST get to the design phase before being cancelled?

If so are there any drawings or other renderings around?

I quess it depends upon what you mean by "design phase". And regarding the second part of the question, certainly a model of the electric HST loco - which was given the class number 92 - was produced, but I can't ever remember seeing a photo of in published in a contemporaneous rail journal.

It's difficult to put a date on when this project was being developed, but it must have been after the abandonment of the APT-S project, certainly before class 90s/Mk 3 DVTs on the WCML, and the existance of the class 89 had a role to play in the cancelation of the electric HST project; and from memory, Brush was involved in the project's initiation by suggesting that diesel HST power cars be converted to electric.

The project was sponsored by InterCity. A project team was established with Don Heath (later Project Director for the ECML electrification scheme) as Project Manager and Norman Price (from BR Projects) as his assistant, the sponsor was represented by Maggie Faulkner, and David Faircloth joined from Procurement. The nominated engineer was Firoz Ghani, but a senior InterCity engineer also attended; sorry, can't remember if this was David Sandland or Brian Smeaton (or perhaps Brian replaced David!)

Apologies if I've got names or spellings wrong (or if I've missed someone out!) - it was 30+ years ago!

To put this requirement in context, the "Premier Line" was something of a backwater; the GW, ECML. MML and XC had their HSTs, but the WCML was still being worked by hauled stock, mainly with class 86s and 87s. True, there was a large number of Mk 3s, but there wers still Mk 1 catering vehicles (and weren't there even Mk 1 BGs on some trains?).

It had been the plan to use APTs on the WCML; but there were two factors which scuppered this. Firstly, the APT-S project couldn't get through the BR appraisal process, and secondly, a detailed analysis of the benefits of tilt on a line-for-line basis showed that it would only bring marginal improvements to journey times on the WCML (and that was mainly on the section through England's Northern Fells and over Beatock); consequently, BR looked at other ways of improving journey times on the WCML, and it's always been my understanding that the Crewe remodelling stemmed from that review. Creating electric HSTs using the existing Mk 3s was another way of "upgrading" the service; in reality, this would mainly be a visible "improvement", making existing trains look "nicer" by giving them a sexy front end!

The project team was responsible for formulating the business specification for the electric HST; the base service for this was the 'Clansman', the day train between Euston and Inverness. Consequently, the electric HST power cars would have to be suitable for being dead-hauled over the Highland main line, and therefore end buffers/etc would be needed; certainly, general arrangement drawings were produced and tabled at project meetings which showed how side buffers could be encased, and for the necessary wires/connectors to be provided for control of the other power car by TDM. As the future of the Settle & Carlisle line was still in doubt at that time, one requirement for the power cars was for them to be suitable to be dead-hauled round the Cumbrian coast.

In concept, the electric HST power cars were very similar to the prototype HSTs; two would run with existing Mk 3s marshalled between them, and therefore they would have "normal" ETS, etc. They would have been numbered in the loco series, and were allocated the class number 92. A model of the proposed loco was produced and presented to the BRB Investment Committee.

From memory, the project was cancelled becasue of resource problems; indications were that the concept had great potential, but the class 89 was more advanced and therefore it was chosen as the way forward at that time. With regard to the WCML, the electric HST was replaced by DVTs, push-pull services being operated by exsting class 86s, 87s, and a new fleet of class 90s.

Literally thousands of BR files were destroyed at privatisation, and the drawings produced by the M&EE dept were possibly amongst them; I've no idea what happened to the model.

Hope this helps.

 

[Indigo Soup]

certainly before class 90s/Mk 3 DVTs on the WCML,

The odd thing is, Class 90s and Mark 3 DVTs pretty much give you an electric HST anyway. All you'd need to do is gear the Class 90 for 125mph (which you couldn't use on the WCML anyway) and Robert is your father's brother. Load 12 or 13 ought to be possible, and you'd even get equal or better acceleration despite only having one 'power car'.

 

[GrimShady]

I quess it depends upon what you mean by "design phase". And regarding the second part of the question, certainly a model of the electric HST loco - which was given the class number 92 - was produced, but I can't ever remember seeing a photo of in published in a contemporaneous rail journal.

It's difficult to put a date on when this project was being developed, but it must have been after the abandonment of the APT-S project, certainly before class 90s/Mk 3 DVTs on the WCML, and the existance of the class 89 had a role to play in the cancelation of the electric HST project; and from memory, Brush was involved in the project's initiation by suggesting that diesel HST power cars be converted to electric.

The project was sponsored by InterCity. A project team was established with Don Heath (later Project Director for the ECML electrification scheme) as Project Manager and Norman Price (from BR Projects) as his assistant, the sponsor was represented by Maggie Faulkner, and David Faircloth joined from Procurement. The nominated engineer was Firoz Ghani, but a senior InterCity engineer also attended; sorry, can't remember if this was David Sandland or Brian Smeaton (or perhaps Brian replaced David!)

Apologies if I've got names or spellings wrong (or if I've missed someone out!) - it was 30+ years ago!

To put this requirement in context, the "Premier Line" was something of a backwater; the GW, ECML. MML and XC had their HSTs, but the WCML was still being worked by hauled stock, mainly with class 86s and 87s. True, there was a large number of Mk 3s, but there wers still Mk 1 catering vehicles (and weren't there even Mk 1 BGs on some trains?).

It had been the plan to use APTs on the WCML; but there were two factors which scuppered this. Firstly, the APT-S project couldn't get through the BR appraisal process, and secondly, a detailed analysis of the benefits of tilt on a line-for-line basis showed that it would only bring marginal improvements to journey times on the WCML (and that was mainly on the section through England's Northern Fells and over Beatock); consequently, BR looked at other ways of improving journey times on the WCML, and it's always been my understanding that the Crewe remodelling stemmed from that review. Creating electric HSTs using the existing Mk 3s was another way of "upgrading" the service; in reality, this would mainly be a visible "improvement", making existing trains look "nicer" by giving them a sexy front end!

The project team was responsible for formulating the business specification for the electric HST; the base service for this was the 'Clansman', the day train between Euston and Inverness. Consequently, the electric HST power cars would have to be suitable for being dead-hauled over the Highland main line, and therefore end buffers/etc would be needed; certainly, general arrangement drawings were produced and tabled at project meetings which showed how side buffers could be encased, and for the necessary wires/connectors to be provided for control of the other power car by TDM. As the future of the Settle & Carlisle line was still in doubt at that time, one requirement for the power cars was for them to be suitable to be dead-hauled round the Cumbrian coast.

In concept, the electric HST power cars were very similar to the prototype HSTs; two would run with existing Mk 3s marshalled between them, and therefore they would have "normal" ETS, etc. They would have been numbered in the loco series, and were allocated the class number 92. A model of the proposed loco was produced and presented to the BRB Investment Committee.

From memory, the project was cancelled becasue of resource problems; indications were that the concept had great potential, but the class 89 was more advanced and therefore it was chosen as the way forward at that time. With regard to the WCML, the electric HST was replaced by DVTs, push-pull services being operated by exsting class 86s, 87s, and a new fleet of class 90s.

Literally thousands of BR files were destroyed at privatisation, and the drawings produced by the M&EE dept were possibly amongst them; I've no idea what happened to the model.

Hope this helps.

An excellent and most informative post sir, thank you kindly!

It's a crying shame the model and drawings were lost.

 

[Dai Corner]

The odd thing is, Class 90s and Mark 3 DVTs pretty much give you an electric HST anyway. All you'd need to do is gear the Class 90 for 125mph (which you couldn't use on the WCML anyway) and Robert is your father's brother. Load 12 or 13 ought to be possible, and you'd even get equal or better acceleration despite only having one 'power car'.

Quite. As I understand it, the HST only has two power cars because it wasn't possible to pack enough power into one diesel loco within the size and weight constraints. Electric traction is smaller and lighter.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Quite. As I understand it, the HST only has two power cars because it wasn't possible to pack enough power into one diesel loco within the size and weight constraints. Electric traction is smaller and lighter.

Looking at what was done with the Class 309s, I would think that a 125mph EMU with no power cars would have been perfectly possible, provided there were no qualms about passengers in leading vehicles.

 

[gingertom]

Looking at what was done with the Class 309s, I would think that a 125mph EMU with no power cars would have been perfectly possible, provided there were no qualms about passengers in leading vehicles.

I watched a video a few weeks ago about the introduction of a fleet of Stadler Electric Flirts on line in Norway. There were a few shots of the first run from a helicopter and inside the cab. From the passing shot from the chopper I could see the formation was a pair of 5-car units, each 5-car unit being kitted with 4 traction bogies. Stadler's powered bogies are 1000kW / 1350 BHP each, making for installed horsepower of nearly 11000BHP in a 10car set. Acceleration was kinda rapid, 0-200kph in about 2 minutes. No power cars here, pure emus.

 

[MarkyT]

I believe the civil and permanent way engineers of the time were very much against large heavy Co-Cos going any faster than 100mph, whether electrically powered like the 89, or having big diesel engines like the earlier experimental HS4000 (Kestral). The twin lightweight power cars of the HST were an ideal solution for going faster. Their positioning at both ends of the train was also a nod towards the fashion of distributing the traction drive under a number of vehicles which became the preference for all kinds of trains. Not so long ago, the Alstom AGV, with fully distributed motor axles under most of the the passenger vehicles, was supposed to be the future, yet while the company has sold a few to an Italian open access operator, all the latest SNCF TGV models retain a pair of separate short power cars to concentrate traction equipment and motors. I believe this is largely due to the now seemingly standard bi-level configuration with a continuous low floor on the lower deck and level boarding from low platforms. This needs smaller articulated bogies between cars which are more difficult to equip with very high powered motors. German, Japanese and Chinese manufacturers so far have stuck with a distributed drive architecture. Spanish Talgo offer a 'motrice' (separate power car) configuration in their latest 'Avril' high speed trains, again for compatibility with low floors, platforms and their unique split axle design.

 

[43096]

I quess it depends upon what you mean by "design phase". And regarding the second part of the question, certainly a model of the electric HST loco - which was given the class number 92 - was produced, but I can't ever remember seeing a photo of in published in a contemporaneous rail journal.

It's difficult to put a date on when this project was being developed, but it must have been after the abandonment of the APT-S project, certainly before class 90s/Mk 3 DVTs on the WCML, and the existance of the class 89 had a role to play in the cancelation of the electric HST project; and from memory, Brush was involved in the project's initiation by suggesting that diesel HST power cars be converted to electric.

The project was sponsored by InterCity. A project team was established with Don Heath (later Project Director for the ECML electrification scheme) as Project Manager and Norman Price (from BR Projects) as his assistant, the sponsor was represented by Maggie Faulkner, and David Faircloth joined from Procurement. The nominated engineer was Firoz Ghani, but a senior InterCity engineer also attended; sorry, can't remember if this was David Sandland or Brian Smeaton (or perhaps Brian replaced David!)

Apologies if I've got names or spellings wrong (or if I've missed someone out!) - it was 30+ years ago!

To put this requirement in context, the "Premier Line" was something of a backwater; the GW, ECML. MML and XC had their HSTs, but the WCML was still being worked by hauled stock, mainly with class 86s and 87s. True, there was a large number of Mk 3s, but there wers still Mk 1 catering vehicles (and weren't there even Mk 1 BGs on some trains?).

It had been the plan to use APTs on the WCML; but there were two factors which scuppered this. Firstly, the APT-S project couldn't get through the BR appraisal process, and secondly, a detailed analysis of the benefits of tilt on a line-for-line basis showed that it would only bring marginal improvements to journey times on the WCML (and that was mainly on the section through England's Northern Fells and over Beatock); consequently, BR looked at other ways of improving journey times on the WCML, and it's always been my understanding that the Crewe remodelling stemmed from that review. Creating electric HSTs using the existing Mk 3s was another way of "upgrading" the service; in reality, this would mainly be a visible "improvement", making existing trains look "nicer" by giving them a sexy front end!

The project team was responsible for formulating the business specification for the electric HST; the base service for this was the 'Clansman', the day train between Euston and Inverness. Consequently, the electric HST power cars would have to be suitable for being dead-hauled over the Highland main line, and therefore end buffers/etc would be needed; certainly, general arrangement drawings were produced and tabled at project meetings which showed how side buffers could be encased, and for the necessary wires/connectors to be provided for control of the other power car by TDM. As the future of the Settle & Carlisle line was still in doubt at that time, one requirement for the power cars was for them to be suitable to be dead-hauled round the Cumbrian coast.

In concept, the electric HST power cars were very similar to the prototype HSTs; two would run with existing Mk 3s marshalled between them, and therefore they would have "normal" ETS, etc. They would have been numbered in the loco series, and were allocated the class number 92. A model of the proposed loco was produced and presented to the BRB Investment Committee.

From memory, the project was cancelled becasue of resource problems; indications were that the concept had great potential, but the class 89 was more advanced and therefore it was chosen as the way forward at that time. With regard to the WCML, the electric HST was replaced by DVTs, push-pull services being operated by exsting class 86s, 87s, and a new fleet of class 90s.

Literally thousands of BR files were destroyed at privatisation, and the drawings produced by the M&EE dept were possibly amongst them; I've no idea what happened to the model.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for that, most interesting. Just one point: as I understood it Class 90 was allocated for the electric power cars (this predated the 87/2, later 90) decision. There was even a BR locomotive lot number raised for the construction of four power cars (90001-4) which was later cancelled.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Thanks for that, most interesting. Just one point: as I understood it Class 90 was allocated for the electric power cars (this predated the 87/2, later 90) decision. There was even a BR locomotive lot number raised for the construction of four power cars (90001-4) which was later cancelled.

I'm as certain as I can be that it was 92; you're quite right about the 90s originally being referrd to as class 87/2s (and as I recall early images showed them as looking like 87s), them being visualised as a producion version of the class 87/1 thyristor prototype.

 

[GrimShady]

I'm as certain as I can be that it was 92; you're quite right about the 90s originally being referrd to as class 87/2s (and as I recall early images showed them as looking like 87s), them being visualised as a producion version of the class 87/1 thyristor prototype.

I've got pictures of the prototype with Class 87/2 on the side in a book.

 

[43096]

I'm as certain as I can be that it was 92; you're quite right about the 90s originally being referrd to as class 87/2s (and as I recall early images showed them as looking like 87s), them being visualised as a producion version of the class 87/1 thyristor prototype.

When I get a chance I’ll have a look for the source where it’s quoted - not at home for the next couple of days, so won’t be until the end of the week.

 

[43096]

Found the source: it's Part 6B of Roger Harris's Allocation History of BR Diesel & Electric Locos.

Full text is:
"The first use of this [Class 90] class number was apparently to the first small batch of vehicles known as the 'Electric HST' and were numbered 90001-90004 and given British Railways Board Lot No. 1512 which was later cancelled, along with the project as a whole."