Electric counties?

[tbtc]

Although by the time this line is considered for electrification someone'll have cracked cold fusion or teleportation or something, or the whole world'll have been wiped out in a nuclear war or environmental catastrophe, so it won't matter.

OTOH, last time I was in Selby it was so full of inbreds and mutants that it looked a bit like the aftermath of a nuclear war........

Doncaster - Hull and Leeds - Hull would be fairly cheap add-ons *if* the Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds - York route gets wired, and would free up a good few DMUs (since Hull Trains and TPE would convert)

 

[mumrar]

Bristol isn't electrified. Dudley doesn't even have a station. 'Sandwell & Dudley' station is in Sandwell district, in the post town Oldbury.

Isn't Dudley Port within the boundaries of Dudley?

 

[142094]

Tyne and Wear apart from a few small bits like Metrocentre (depends how much you count the Metro in with it).

 

[jopsuk]

Um, if you're trying to claim Tyne and Wear as non-electrified, have you forgotten about the main line?

 

[oglord]

Unitary authorities? Lieutenancy areas? How about a map of the real counties?

 

[imagination]

Um, if you're trying to claim Tyne and Wear as non-electrified, have you forgotten about the main line?

The Tyne Valley line to Carlisle isn't either is it?

 

[4SRKT]

Isn't Dudley Port within the boundaries of Dudley?

Postally it's in Tipton and its local authority is Sandwell, so no.

AFAIK the only stations within Dudley MB are Stourbridge Jn and Town, and Lye.

 

[jopsuk]

Unitary authorities? Lieutenancy areas? How about a map of the real counties?

Bunch of cranks, that lot. The stuff about postal addressing is especially irrelevant. As far as the Royal Mail are concerned, a letter is correctly addressed if it has:
The property number or name
The postcode.

There is no need to include:
County
Town
Street name!

But that's irrevelant to the discussion. What is though is that tyne and Wear is certainly mixed diesel and electric- diesel local services, Cross Country, Transpenine and ECML, but also Electric ECML and Metro. So, neither diesel-free nor electric-free

 

[4SRKT]

Bunch of cranks, that lot. The stuff about postal addressing is especially irrelevant. As far as the Royal Mail are concerned, a letter is correctly addressed if it has:
The property number or name
The postcode.

There is no need to include:
County
Town
Street name!

But that's irrevelant to the discussion. What is though is that tyne and Wear is certainly mixed diesel and electric- diesel local services, Cross Country, Transpenine and ECML, but also Electric ECML and Metro. So, neither diesel-free nor electric-free

Not strictly true. A Postcode Address File compliant address should have the house number or name, street, sub-town (if there is one), post town and postcode. Of course a smart alec can just put the number and postcode but such a letter will be delayed. Dealing with bad addresses like this takes traffic outside the sausage machine for processing and costs money. The Royal Mail and any other carrier don't want you to do it.

The biggest problem of not using PAF compliant addresses is when using them to order stuff on line or through catalogues. Most retailers and carriers have PAF validation software and these challenge and where possible correct incorrect addresses. If it can't correct it it will be delayed while they investigate what it should be. Any parcel you get from these companies will always have your correct PAF address no matter what you entered.

This is vital to ensure correct automatic routing of packages. Take for example someone who lives in Thornton, a village on the edge Bradford. There is a great tendency for people who live in villages outside of Bradford to omit the word 'Bradford' from their address (for snobbery reasons I guess). Incorrect addresses reading like '1 Main Street, Thornton, West Yorkshire, BD13 3XX' won't pass PAF validation because the software can't reconcile the postcode with the post town Thornton. It can't assume that the mistake made is the omission of the post town Bradford, because there are other Thorntons in other post towns and it might be the postcode that's incorrect. The presence of 'West Yorkshire' is no longer a help for the validation because post counties are no longer part of PAF addresses, probably because they don't correspond to real counties and therefore don't make any sense. It's not needed anyway because with one exception the same post town name never appears with the same postcode area (the exception being there are two post towns called St Agnes in the TR postcode).

 

[ralphchadkirk]

4SRKT - The Royal Mail quote this as their minimum information required:

You must include one premise element, one thoroughfare element, one locality element and the postcode as a minimum.

Premise: One of these 4: Organisation, Sub-Building, Building Name, Building Number
Thoroughfare: Dependant thoroughfare or thoroughfare
Locality: Dependant and double dependant - such as Post Town and County.
ftp://ftp.royalmail.com/Downloads/p...03/Guide for clear addressing April 10 v1.pdf
Page 22

With regards to your PAF compliant addresses, page 23 says this:

You must include at least one locality element. You don't have to include them all, even if they are included in PAF/QUOTE]

 

[4SRKT]

4SRKT - The Royal Mail quote this as their minimum information required:

Premise: One of these 4: Organisation, Sub-Building, Building Name, Building Number
Thoroughfare: Dependant thoroughfare or thoroughfare
Locality: Dependant and double dependant - such as Post Town and County.
ftp://ftp.royalmail.com/Downloads/p...03/Guide for clear addressing April 10 v1.pdf
Page 22

With regards to your PAF compliant addresses, page 23 says this:

You must include at least one locality element. You don't have to include them all, even if they are included in PAF/QUOTE]

I didn't say that Royal Mail can't deliver incorrect addresses. Merely that PAF addresses are better for Royal Mail. I wasn't even talking about Royal Mail if you actually read the post. Royal Mail can accept these bad addresses because they have processes for removing them from the sort line at the office where they enter the network and dealing with them separately. For carriers other than Royal Mail, or for companies who use address validation software to reduce the risk of delays or mis-routes (and hence cost), correct PAF addresses are much more important. For companies like these the routing is determined up front and embedded in the barcode. Errors in the address could result in parcels being sent to the wrong part of the country before the error is discovered. The Royal Mail may set the PAF, but it is by no means the only user. Indeed if it carries on the way it is doing, it may well be a minority user in the not too distant future.

They're not 'my' PAF compliant addresses BTW.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

We need to find a way round this kind of problem; the same exists on areas like the swing bridge on the Selby - Hull line...

Am I right in thinking there is still a small lifting bridge with gaps in the 3rd rail just on the up side of Greenwich?

 

[jopsuk]

ex-lifting bridge; it has continous rails across it

 

[philjo]

We need to find a way round this kind of problem; the same exists on areas like the swing bridge on the Selby - Hull line...

The Trowse swing bridge in Norwich has OHLE (it is the only UK swing bridge with OHLE) so it can be done (albeit with a cost attached)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuart166axe/4446459773/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trowse_Bridge

 

[tbtc]

The Trowse swing bridge in Norwich has OHLE (it is the only UK swing bridge with OHLE) so it can be done (albeit with a cost attached)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuart166axe/4446459773/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trowse_Bridge

I did not know that - thanks

I hope the same can be done at Selby as that's a line which needs doing (when the northern Transpennine line is done)

 

[Bedpan]

I wonder if the Royal Mail use postcodes at all! I saw a letter delivered in Station Road, Harpenden the other day which had should have been delivered to Cardenden - it was correctly addressed with an FY5 postcode and even had the word SCOTLAND on the envelope.

 

[4SRKT]

I wonder if the Royal Mail use postcodes at all! I saw a letter delivered in Station Road, Harpenden the other day which had should have been delivered to Cardenden - it was correctly addressed with an FY5 postcode and even had the word SCOTLAND on the envelope.

Although FY5 should have seen it ending up at the Blackpool office for delivery in Thornton Cleveleys

This actually illustrates rather nicely the importance of using PAF addresses that was so ridiculed by RalphChadKirk upthread. The letter has been sorted by a machine that is not looking for words like 'Scotland' that don't appear in PAF. The sender's handwriting is presumably indistinct and Cardenden could easily be confused with Harpenden. Given that wrong postcode had been used the OCR system would have been unsure whether this letter should be going to Thornton Cleveleys or Harpenden, and for some reason has chosen the latter. Had the sender had used to correct PAF address of Cardenden, Lochgelly, KY5 etc it would have stood a better chance even had he used the incorrect postcode.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Show me where the PAF addresses were ridiculed?
I merely point out what the Royal Mail considered the minimum for successful postage - if you don't like it, take it up with them, not me.

 

[telstarbox]

That's probably where it got its RH6 postcode from, having been historically associated with Horley rather than Crawley, and hence the reason I thought it might be in Surrey. Although the RH postcode straddles three counties, broadly speaking its post towns don't. RH1-9 are in Surrey, RH10-17 and 19-20 are in West Sussex and RH18 is in East Sussex.

This was the reason for my asking about whether Gatwick is in Surrey or not, in order to attempt to make my assertion about West Sussex count! I'm not sure about the Brighton > Salisburys, but by asking this you've just reminded me that the Ashford > Hastings workings go through to Brighton. Therefore this one service knocks out three counties that would otherwise be very close to being all-electric.

Indeed - postcodes aren't anything to do with counties really - the TN (Tonbridge) postcode covers a lot of East Sussex, down to Hastings; the S postcode (Sheffield) goes over to Worksop (Nottinghamshire), Chesterfield (Derbyshire); and so on.

 

[jopsuk]

In Scotland, the Falkirk (FK) postcode covers Stirlinghshire (which if we're picky, Falkirk is in) and Clackmannanshire as well as bits of Perthshire. Peterborough is traditionally part of Cambrideshire, but has it's own Postcode area. We could go on... and most likely will...

 

[oglord]

Peterborough is traditionally part of Cambrideshire, but has it's own Postcode area. We could go on... and most likely will...

Actually Peterborough is traditionally part of Northamptonshire, but you're right in pointing out that postcodes have nothing to do with counties.

 

[37 418]

Western Isles?

You mean Na h-Eileanan an Iar surely lol

 

[philjo]

A large part of mid-wales has a SY (Shrewsbury) post code, so their post code prefix isn't even for the same Country, never mind the County!
e.g. Aberystwyth is SY 23.

 

[oglord]

A large part of mid-wales has a SY (Shrewsbury) post code, so their post code prefix isn't even for the same Country, never mind the County!
e.g. Aberystwyth is SY 23.

Actually it is the same country. Both Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury are in the United Kingdom. A different part of the UK maybe, but still the same country.

 

[jopsuk]

 

[philjo]

Maybe so but I know several people who live in Shropshire/Mid-wales who say that a lot of people living in that area of Wales resent having an English postcode when they themselves live in Wales.

 

[Greenback]

Although FY5 should have seen it ending up at the Blackpool office for delivery in Thornton Cleveleys

This actually illustrates rather nicely the importance of using PAF addresses that was so ridiculed by RalphChadKirk upthread. The letter has been sorted by a machine that is not looking for words like 'Scotland' that don't appear in PAF. The sender's handwriting is presumably indistinct and Cardenden could easily be confused with Harpenden. Given that wrong postcode had been used the OCR system would have been unsure whether this letter should be going to Thornton Cleveleys or Harpenden, and for some reason has chosen the latter. Had the sender had used to correct PAF address of Cardenden, Lochgelly, KY5 etc it would have stood a better chance even had he used the incorrect postcode.

You are 100% correct!

Indeed - postcodes aren't anything to do with counties really - the TN (Tonbridge) postcode covers a lot of East Sussex, down to Hastings; the S postcode (Sheffield) goes over to Worksop (Nottinghamshire), Chesterfield (Derbyshire); and so on.

A large part of mid-wales has a SY (Shrewsbury) post code, so their post code prefix isn't even for the same Country, never mind the County!
e.g. Aberystwyth is SY 23.

At the risk of going completely off topic and boring a lot of people, when postcodes were first introduced it was the PO's intention that every postcode (ie AB, LE, TR) would have a mechanised letter office. This emant that codes were allocated in a way that meant traditional county boundaries were ignored. These plans changed later, and fewer Mechanised Letter Offices were introduced than originally planned (Truro and Hereford never became MLO@s IIRC!) but the catchment areas for these offices remained the same.

Now, of course,e verything has become even more centralised and the 1960's and 1970's MLO's have been replaced with Mail Centres covering huge swathes of the country geographically, backed up by thousands of delivery offices of all sizes.

 

[tbtc]

Maybe so but I know several people who live in Shropshire/Mid-wales who say that a lot of people living in that area of Wales resent having an English postcode when they themselves live in Wales.

Postcode snobbery is an interesting one. I know people on the Wirral peninsula who omit "Merseyside" from their address and just put the "Cheshire" postcode, because it sounds "posher"

 

[Ivo]

To "agree" with 4SRKT (will send you a PM by the way), I don't even see the point in pointing counties on addresses. I once criticised my college for inserting the word "Essex" on a letter bound for a part of Southend when Southend is unitary... whoops

I would like to ask a couple of questions, actually. Is ME Medway or Maidstone? Also, why does IG (Ilford I believe) have a G in it?

 

[Greenback]

ME was Maidstone, as an MLO was based there. IG came about because it was easier to use on the small non QWERTY keyboards that were introduced to manually encode the mail. The most imprtant cities (eg Glasgow, Birmingham) were given one letter postcodes, London saw the extension of the earlier postal districts (W1, W2 etc) and most other codes were constructed using either the first two letters of the placename or the first and last.