There are already busses that use ultra-capacitors.
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Electric Car Nation
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HSTEd
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I am afraid that the price of electricity in a full developed zero-carbon system (I prefer nuclear dominated but same idea) will never fall significantly below the cost of the dominant industrial heating source.
Which is either natural gas at ~2p/kWh or petcoke at about 0.3p/kWh [although I doubt petcoke is going to take off given the environmental issues with it].
This is because you can use a FIrebrick Resistive Energy Storage (FIRES) system, essentially a giant very very high temperature, ultra cheap, storage heater based on industrial recuperators in the steel industry.
And for the record, batteries are still really bad on the efficiency front, in real life.
Additionally 'near' the point of use is not good enough, if they have to pass through the LV grid to get to the point of use you are going to get hammered since that is where the bulk of the losses are and you will have to pass through it three times to get from the generator to the user.
As opposed to once for pumped storage.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Read up on the 7 trial, there are plenty of articles on how it works. The answer is these are non-issues now. By 2040 they will definitely be non-issues.
Why would they?
Some car manufacturers will only be producing electric cars within several years. My car will last for 3-4 more years and I'll be hoping to purchase an electric one when it conks out.
In Milton Keynes the electric buses are wirelessly charged when they stop over certain bus stops (there is one in Wolverton for example). It's great technology.
http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/milton-keynes-wirelessly-charged-electric-buses/
http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/milton-keynes-wirelessly-charged-electric-buses/
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Indeed, and what I didn't know until recently is that a cable can't match the speed of charging unless impracticably big.
OTOH, the London Red Arrow electric buses manage to hold a charge long enough for a day's service...
It's amazing how much nicer a travelling environment it is without the rattling, though those with good hearing do get a fair selection of high pitched electronic noises that could do with being worked on.
Very valid point.
This thread is an excellent example of the sort of luddites that are typical within the rail enthusiast community. So we've covered branch closure threats and the usual assumptions that battery technology will not progress beyond the next 23 years.
Anyway moving on.
The replacement of petrol and diesel vehicles with electric is overall an excellent idea and I think by and large makes common sense.
However there are a few points of concern which I'm sure are easily resolvable.
Would there be such thing as grandad rights for work places or individuals who are required or like to operate petrol/diesel vehicles. Such as Classic car owners or things like heavy construction and military vehicles where I'm sure a battery wouldn't be able to generate enough power for what the vehicle needs to do and still be able to travel long distances.
I'll happily drive an electric car if car manufacturers didn't make them to look so obtrusive, such as the BMW I3 which is just an asymetrical mess. Perhaps if they made them to look like a Rover P6 or Ford Granada, I'd be more than happy.
Lastly, this is purely from a nostelgia point of view, one of my favourite things about driving is hearing the sound of the engine and getting used to something which many people, myself include use as part of their driving style will be quite difficult.
Lastly shouldn't we consider that the car itself may become outdated as roads become more congested and restricted.
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As is often the case, the media is distorting a news story to improve circulation by painting a picture of a cliff-face change in lifestyle being forced upon the poor citzen by taking away their 'right' to drive fossil fuelled vehicles. Maybe some here have taken the bait.
In reality it won't be anywhere near that abrupt. The availability of clean (at the point of use) vehicles suitable for at least 90% of private vehicle use is already here. The average mileage driven in the UK in private vehicles is about 8000 miles per year which even if taken over just work days (about 240) is only 33 miles, - that is to any destination(s) and and back home. Recharging batteries for that use wouldn't even need a day-time top up, the overnight charge would easily cope at power levels compatible with normal domestic supllies. Dare I say it, the much vaunted smart meter could be a useful tool to prevent peak excesses being exacerbated, particularly in the winter.
So for those who need to regularly travel over 100-150 miles per day there will be alternatives:
*there are reports that many hybrid cars (typically the Toyota Prius) are being driven around on petrol only with life expired batteries out of use
In reality it won't be anywhere near that abrupt. The availability of clean (at the point of use) vehicles suitable for at least 90% of private vehicle use is already here. The average mileage driven in the UK in private vehicles is about 8000 miles per year which even if taken over just work days (about 240) is only 33 miles, - that is to any destination(s) and and back home. Recharging batteries for that use wouldn't even need a day-time top up, the overnight charge would easily cope at power levels compatible with normal domestic supllies. Dare I say it, the much vaunted smart meter could be a useful tool to prevent peak excesses being exacerbated, particularly in the winter.
So for those who need to regularly travel over 100-150 miles per day there will be alternatives:
drive to railhead, travel by rail or other public transport mode, pick up vehicle for local travel to destination or use public transport
drive - say 100 miles, swift recharge during break, continue etc.
own a hybrid vehicle, that may use fossil fuel when 'essential'*, but manage demand by steadily increasing pollution surcharges on fossil fuels. It's surprising how easy those who shout "impossible" the loudest find it easy to change when it hits their pocket.
drive - say 100 miles, swift recharge during break, continue etc.
own a hybrid vehicle, that may use fossil fuel when 'essential'*, but manage demand by steadily increasing pollution surcharges on fossil fuels. It's surprising how easy those who shout "impossible" the loudest find it easy to change when it hits their pocket.
*there are reports that many hybrid cars (typically the Toyota Prius) are being driven around on petrol only with life expired batteries out of use
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There's a lot more scope to play with the design as a fixed driveline is not required. OTOH I think we will see more conventional looking ones over time (as with houses - there is no reason they have to be built like Victorian terraces, but time has proven that people prefer that look).
I think there will also be electric conversion kits for classics - expect the various Land Rovers to be first[1] as they are so easy to adapt. No different, really, than the modern Dennis Dart-derived drivelines in the heritage Routemasters on the 15 in London.
[1] Someone's already done it with milk float parts for a farm runaround, though range and top speed were poor.
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Well, EU rules are mandating audible alarms on electric cars by 2020. Maybe it will possible to put a V8 (or even a diesel) sound on cars. There would be a clean 'canvas' on a silent car.
SpacePhoenix
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Could electric cars have for lack of a better description "traction motors" on each axle, each being able to operate independently?
D365
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Again, this isn't a ban on ICE vehicles, just the sale of them beyond 2040.
I'll agree with you on that point, I have no idea why manufacturers need to make them look 'special'.
It's so when you pass one in the street you know it's an electric car. Kudos factor for the owner. "People can see me driving my clean, electric car."
As they become mainstream of course they will look more mainstream.
If you read the news story, it's a ban on the sale of new diesel and petrol cars.
You can expect that industrial vehicles and military vehicles etc won't be caught in that requirement.
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jonty14
Member
How environmentally friendly is the production of all these batteries that will be needed?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
will this ban include hybrid engines? I will have to trade in my McLaren P1 if it does 
it is part of the selling point. You are buying a futuristic stand out vehicle that everyone knows is an electric and generates kudos.
it is part of the selling point. You are buying a futuristic stand out vehicle that everyone knows is an electric and generates kudos.
I think you mean diesel and petrol cars.
There's quite a lot of recycling of rechargeable batteries' materials. Large traction types moreso. Far better than continually converting Hydrocarbons into CO, CO2 NOx etc..
Apologies I did one of those early morning, just before work skim reads. However the Op didn't have a link so my speculation was justified.
To expand my point, be interesting to note where the ban on the sale of diesel/petrol vehicles would extend to. Would say HGVs still be diesel, or light commercial vehicles such as vans be diesel? Then drawing the line between light commercial vehicle and a car can get very muddy.
With all the concern about the environmental impact of battery production, I wouldn't be surprised if trolley buses were brought back.
We'll most likely see the expansion of hybrid technology for the interim.
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Harbon 1
Member
I would have thought by the time we come to this ban, personal cars won't be being sold with pure petrol/diesel engines anyway.
The hybrids now are producing a lot of horsepower and torque so the conventional engine will be able to get smaller, as we have seen recently with smaller engines being able to produce a lot of power. By 2030 who knows, we could be looking at our decent 50mpg cars of today laughing at how it's only a quarter of what we have in the future.
I expect hydrogen tech to have gone a long way, with it an electricity becoming the new petrol and diesel.
For me, electric cars are (at the minute) a step backwards. Obviously we have quick charging stations and longer ranges, but it still seems like letting your expensive horse have a sleep every couple of hundred miles.
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The hybrids now are producing a lot of horsepower and torque so the conventional engine will be able to get smaller, as we have seen recently with smaller engines being able to produce a lot of power. By 2030 who knows, we could be looking at our decent 50mpg cars of today laughing at how it's only a quarter of what we have in the future.
I expect hydrogen tech to have gone a long way, with it an electricity becoming the new petrol and diesel.
For me, electric cars are (at the minute) a step backwards. Obviously we have quick charging stations and longer ranges, but it still seems like letting your expensive horse have a sleep every couple of hundred miles.
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Maybe a step backwards for some drivers but a great step forward for the environment in which everybody must live in.
Harbon 1
Member
I was thinking that myself, most if not all manufacturers will be banned by their market or by their own government by then! Seems a little fishy! We care but we don't want to do anything about it
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Harbon 1
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True to a point i agree there, my concern is the manufacture of the batteries and replacement after their use life, although that's been discussed already.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Indeed.
FWIW, a good start would be a much sooner ban on the use of internal combustion engines in cities. If everyone drove a plug-in hybrid, they could run on batteries in cities where pollution is the biggest problem then on small, high-speed petrol engines running at maximum efficiency when on the motorway etc.
Ironically, if you treat the CO2 as plant food, then a petrol car with an intact catalytic converter is pretty clean. In fact, they make suicide by car exhaust difficult if not impossible. It's diesels, that don't have catalytic converters (in the mk1 catalytic converter sense), that are the problem.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Indeed. The unpleasant fug of petrol and diesel fumes on the roads in the 1980s was, well, unpleasant.
That neatly sidesteps the issue that there was enough CO2 for plants before the Industrial Revolution, as well as the fact that the rate it's being emitted at the moment is a cause for concern, as a greenhouse gas.
It's kind of like getting a tip-up truck full of Whiskas and drowning a hundred cats in it, saying "well it's food!".
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