EGIP timeline

[Chris125]

Oh well, looks like Scotlands forward thinking electrification programme has been scaled back quite dramatically...

Stirling/Dunblane and Alloa dropped along with increased frequencies on E-G.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18690764

Chris

 

[tbtc]

Not great news. But Glasgow Queen Street does get some big glass frontage - bit of a cop out?

This does scupper the hopes that a lot of people had for cascaded improvements elsewhere too - if this only frees up around twenty DMUs then FSR may well want to keep them all for other enhancements (with nothing coming south).

 

[Pumbaa]

Was just about to update this. Yes, main thrust is;

- Descope of £350m
- Dunblane/Alloa will not be electrified
- E to G timesaving 'up to 10 mins'
- Full wifi on E to G by 2013
- No increase in frequency above what is now between E and G direct (4tph) but longer 8-car trains
- Maryhill services can remain at Queen St
- Glasgow 'connectivity' to new Edinburgh Gateway station will now not happen either.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I wouldnt jump tø soon Re cascades, they may now convert some other runs to 170 opperation potentially releasing the Haymarket based 158s to northern or EMT or Fgw?

 

[tbtc]

Does anyone know whether this "austerity" will affect the "Southside" plans (Paisley Canal etc)?

 

[Chris125]

I dont think there was any risk of Paisley Canal being dropped, its specifically mentioned in the press release (unlike the lines they've dropped...) and should done by the end of the year i believe.

It puts in context the '100km of electrified single track per year following the conclusion of EGIP' we heard about in June, which funnily enough doesnt sound as ambitious anymore - what kind of timescale would that make Alloa/Stirling should they follow on directly afterwards?

Chris

 

[Blindtraveler]

well at a guess and it is just that 2018/20. My feer here is that the short sighted move of only tendering for and ordering sufficiant stock for Edinburgh to Glasgow will be made, resulting later in further tenders, delays whist the burocratic wheels revolve, potential micro fleats of multiple classes and unit types and ultimately more dosh and resources wasted.

I was0under the impression that economies of scale were to be made here with one stock desighn and varius subclasses and unit lengths built for the veriety of routes.
However unless this principle is maintained and a contract let for the first build with the option of additional units
then tere is trubble ahead

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Was just about to update this. Yes, main thrust is;

- Descope of £350m
- Dunblane/Alloa will not be electrified
- E to G timesaving 'up to 10 mins'
- Full wifi on E to G by 2013
- No increase in frequency above what is now between E and G direct (4tph) but longer 8-car trains
- Maryhill services can remain at Queen St
- Glasgow 'connectivity' to new Edinburgh Gateway station will now not happen either.

It's always difficult teasing out the detail from official announcements.
Where does this leave Cumbernauld-Falkirk-Grangetown?
And the Maryhill loop?
Paisley Canal (5 miles of single track) is obviously in, but it was not in EGIP!

I imagine this is the first of the 2014-19 CP5 decisions for NR funding, with the balance being pushed back to CP6 (2019-24).
The implication is that similar descoping is likely for England and Wales.
Not good news for (eg) Swansea.

 

[Chris125]

It does say that "Cumbernauld line services will also be electrified ahead of the 2014 Commonwealth Games in Glasgow" but hopefully more details will emerge.

Chris

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"...Cumbernauld line services will also be electrified ahead of the 2014 Commonwealth Games in Glasgow"

Chris

Yes but that could mean just the Queen St-Cumbernauld bit.
I was more interested in the "network" benefit of electric freight haulage from the WCML to Grangemouth, which the full scheme would deliver.
These statements are expertly crafted to avoid over-commitment.

 

[jw]

Was just about to update this. Yes, main thrust is;

- Descope of £350m
- Dunblane/Alloa will not be electrified
- E to G timesaving 'up to 10 mins'
- Full wifi on E to G by 2013
- No increase in frequency above what is now between E and G direct (4tph) but longer 8-car trains
- Maryhill services can remain at Queen St
- Glasgow 'connectivity' to new Edinburgh Gateway station will now not happen either.

Where does it say 8-car trains?

 

[clc]

Was just about to update this. Yes, main thrust is;


- Dunblane/Alloa will not be electrified
- No increase in frequency above what is now between E and G direct (4tph) but longer 8-car trains
- Glasgow 'connectivity' to new Edinburgh Gateway station will now not happen either.

Where would I find this info? it's not on the TS or NR website as far as I can see. Do you know if electrification will reach Stirling?

 

[Chris125]

Where would I find this info? it's not on the TS or NR website as far as I can see. Do you know if electrification will reach Stirling?

The press release from TS is here, but unsurprisingly the emphasis is on what's going ahead and the massive 'savings'.

Chris

 

[clc]

Duplicate post

 

[Scotrail84]

Where would I find this info? it's not on the TS or NR website as far as I can see. Do you know if electrification will reach Stirling?

Well if it's not reaching Alloa it will not reach Stirling mate.

 

[jopsuk]

aye, if it doesn't go to Dunblane and Alloa there's no point whatsoever in going to Stirling, unless they plan to replace through services with shuttles from the northern bays! Wouldn't go down well I'd wager.

 

[Scotrail84]

aye, if it doesn't go to Dunblane and Alloa there's no point whatsoever in going to Stirling, unless they plan to replace through services with shuttles from the northern bays! Wouldn't go down well I'd wager.

That won't happen. I suppose this means the semaphores at Stirling are preserved for a few more years anyway?

 

[jopsuk]

I know that won't happen. It is always possible though that the signalling will be done anyway (with allowances made for any planned track changes) without the electrification happening.

 

[Scotrail84]

I know that won't happen. It is always possible though that the signalling will be done anyway (with allowances made for any planned track changes) without the electrification happening.

Can't see them spending more than they have to. I reckon it will remain as it is for the foreseeable future.

 

[rail-britain]

Well if it's not reaching Alloa it will not reach Stirling mate

Assuming Stirling depot is still going to proceed, Stirling will still be electrified (perhaps a more simplified layout) as this is required for the maintenance of some units
Equally now that the 6 trains per hour is no longer required the work at Carmuirs would no longer be required
edit :
Equally now that the 6 trains per hour is no longer required the work at Greenhill would no longer be required

If Stirling depot is no longer proceeding then this suggests the electrification is ending just to the north of Cumbernauld
Equally, the electrification may only be between Springburn and Cumbernauld (as originally proposed)
Glasgow Queen Street tunnel could then be completed later

 

[Scotrail84]

Assuming Stirling depot is still going to proceed, Stirling will still be electrified (perhaps a more simplified layout) as this is required for the maintenance of some units
Equally now that the 6 trains per hour is no longer required the work at Carmuirs would no longer be required

If Stirling depot is no longer proceeding then this suggests the electrification is ending just to the north of Cumbernauld
Equally, the electrification may only be between Springburn and Cumbernauld (as originally proposed)
Glasgow Queen Street tunnel could then be completed



"The new plans that have been announced fail to achieve the improvements in journey times that have been promised, fail to guarantee the pledged electrification of the network to Stirling and Dunblane and fail to deliver the six trains per hour between Glasgow and Edinburgh that business travellers have been demanding."

This is the final paragraph from the news release which seems to suggest the the wires will not reach Stirling.

 

[rail-britain]

This is the final paragraph from the news release which seems to suggest the the wires will not reach Stirling.

I am wondering if the planning application for the Stirling depot was refused, which put the entire project in doubt
Without the depot it would be almost impossible to service all the EMU
It would be possible for Bathgate and Eastfield to handle the lower number of EMU that will now be required

Equally, I think the resounding public response to electrification (between Edinburgh and Glasgow via Falkirk High) has been that there was actually very little benefit overall
Sadly we will need to wait some time for this to be full published

Personally, the whole project was pie in the sky, going from the current setup to a massive revamp and electrification
It makes more sense to upgrade in stages, adding Dunblane and Alloa at a later date

 

[WatcherZero]

Its more the Scottish Government balked at the £1bn cost but they had already pledged they would do it, by carving it back to the backbone they 'save' £350m while not being caught out by having their promises broken.

 

[Railsigns]

Plans for a Stirling depot were dropped from the EGIP project a while ago. A new depot is proposed at Millerhill instead.

 

[Failed Unit]

Glad they have seen sense, pity about the Stirling electrification but I am sure that will come in the future. 6tph was never going to work and I am personally glad the disruptive Edinburgh Gateway re-route of Linlithgow trains isn't going to happen either and we can continue to use Edinburgh Park as now.

Not sure where the 10 minutes is going to come from, I can see how 5 minutes can come off. But I guess considering some peak trains take 55 minutes reducing them to 45 minutes is very possible.

I would love to see a standard timetable throughout the day. It 1700 and 1730 stop at Croy and Falkirk only. 1715 stop Falkirk, Polmont and Linlithgow. As an example. There are many other non-standard peak patterns, such as the timing of Stirling services in the morning peak towards Edinburgh.

 

[Blindtraveler]

1 TPH should be fast from HYM to GLQ with the quarter past being all stops incl Croy the half past as now and the quarter to as now also.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And a tip for anybody who cares about working online/on the phone, 10 mins slower it may be but the A to B has far better mobile and data signal than the via Falkirk run.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
1 TPH should be fast from HYM to GLQ with the quarter past being all stops incl Croy the half past as now and the quarter to as now also.

 

[PhilipW]

Glad they have seen sense, pity about the Stirling electrification but I am sure that will come in the future. 6tph was never going to work and I am personally glad the disruptive Edinburgh Gateway re-route of Linlithgow trains isn't going to happen either and we can continue to use Edinburgh Park as now.

Are you saying that the Dalmeny curve is being abandoned ? I did not read that into the announcement.

 

[Failed Unit]

Are you saying that the Dalmeny curve is being abandoned ? I did not read that into the announcement.

No, I am just taking the announcement that they won't force the re-route of services through it and removing an excellant link to Edinburgh Park replacing it with a station in the middle of no-where.

The Dalmeny curve is good for Flexibilty. The reverse when the signals fail at Newbridge isnt ideal.

 

[rail-britain]

Are you saying that the Dalmeny curve is being abandoned ? I did not read that into the announcement.

The Dalmeny diversionary route was required in order to implement the 6 trains per hour
It is no longer required, the full press release advises "the new Edinburgh Gateway station will link Edinburgh Airport with Haymarket"
There is no mention of the direct link to Glasgow any more

 

[tbtc]

Two quick questions:

What will run the Paisley Canal service (since there are no more EMUs for a while), will this mean no more doubled up 334s on the Bathgate line to free up other EMUs?

Is this a sign of "realism" before the Referendum? I'd have thought Wee Eck would have been keen to show lots of investment on the horizon as an incentive to vote for Independence in 2014? The timing seems a little strange to me.

Its more the Scottish Government balked at the £1bn cost but they had already pledged they would do it, by carving it back to the backbone they 'save' £350m while not being caught out by having their promises broken.

The old adage to wifes coming back from a day's shopping: "don't tell him how much you spent, tell him how much you saved"...

6tph was never going to work

Four trains an hour that are eight coaches each would be better than six shorter ones an hour.

Not sure where the 10 minutes is going to come from, I can see how 5 minutes can come off. But I guess considering some peak trains take 55 minutes reducing them to 45 minutes is very possible.

...by padding out the timetable so that they can then find an amazing "saving" in time?