EGIP timeline

[Scotrail84]

Winchburgh is to the east of Linlithgow
I was sure the bus service ran between Falkirk High to Linlithgow, may be it ran between Linlithgow / Falkirk Grahamston and Haymarket

To be honest I can't remember that when was it as I've been in service for 12 years you may be right though. Was the buses not when they remodelled newbridge junction ??

 

[Failed Unit]

The commercial response to the cutbacks announced for EGIP have been very unfavourable, but they all agree that at least the basic link is being electrified with some journey time improvements
The only body that seems to have agreed fully, so far, is Network Rail

Really - I don't know anyone that was in favour of the full EGIP scheme, it was widely agreed the 6 trains per hour was unworkable and no-one wanted thier service moved away from Edinburgh Park either.
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To be honest I can't remember that when was it as I've been in service for 12 years you may be right though. Was the buses not when they remodelled newbridge junction ??

When the remodelled Newbridge it was:

Edinburgh - Glasgow 1/2 hourly with a reversal at Dalmeny
Linlithgow - Dunblane.

Flooding does not just effect the tunnel, if it was that simple they would just re-route via Dalmeny now. The flooding also happens between the junction on Linlithgow which can't be avoided.

Wasn't the line closed many years ago because the canal colapsed between Polmont and Linlithgow?

 

[Scotrail84]

Really - I don't know anyone that was in favour of the full EGIP scheme, it was widely agreed the 6 trains per hour was unworkable and no-one wanted thier service moved away from Edinburgh Park either.
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When the remodelled Newbridge it was:

Edinburgh - Glasgow 1/2 hourly with a reversal at Dalmeny
Linlithgow - Dunblane.

Flooding does not just effect the tunnel, if it was that simple they would just re-route via Dalmeny now. The flooding also happens between the junction on Linlithgow which can't be avoided.

Wasn't the line closed many years ago because the canal colapsed between Polmont and Linlithgow?

Seems like it was way before my time I'm just a whippersnapper

 

[rail-britain]

To be honest I can't remember that when was it as I've been in service for 12 years you may be right though. Was the buses not when they remodelled newbridge junction ??

I suspect this was mid 1990s, as this was shortly after the Class 158 units were fully introduced
It was caused by flooding, and the following weekend The Glasgow Herald had a full four page spread which included pictures and proposals by BR to resolve the situation in the long-term, which were already progressing
I am fairly sure the Glasgow QS services were only operating to Falkirk High, but they may have been operating to Linlithgow

This same issue was raised when Winchburgh flooded, along with yet more proposals, that may have been under RailTrack

As with all things, any excuse to delay or amend a rail project so that the entire process has to start all over again...

 

[Scotrail84]

I suspect this was mid 1990s, as this was shortly after the Class 158 units were fully introduced
It was caused by flooding, and the following weekend The Glasgow Herald had a full four page spread which included pictures and proposals by BR to resolve the situation in the long-term, which were already progressing
I am fairly sure the Glasgow QS services were only operating to Falkirk High, but they may have been operating to Linlithgow

This same issue was raised when Winchburgh flooded, along with yet more proposals, that may have been under RailTrack

As with all things, any excuse to delay or amend a rail project so that the entire process has to start all over again...

Mid nineties!! I was still in high school haha.

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess keeping the line open isn't as important now to be honest, the route via Bathgate is a reasonable alternative now.I know us from the Central belt still suffer when it floods but the main market is OK. They can still reverse at both Polmont and Linlithgow now.

 

[rail-britain]

Really - I don't know anyone that was in favour of the full EGIP scheme, it was widely agreed the 6 trains per hour was unworkable and no-one wanted thier service moved away from Edinburgh Park either.

There were loads of companies and organisations that were in favour of the original EGIP scheme
Yes, some had raised concerns, but these were minor and caused by oversights in the way the documentation was put together and so fragmented

There haven't been that many responses to the revised scheme, so far, but the majority I have read are unfavourable
So far the only completely favourable one is Network Rail

I guess keeping the line open isn't as important now to be honest, the route via Bathgate is a reasonable alternative now.I know us from the Central belt still suffer when it floods but the main market is OK. They can still reverse at both Polmont and Linlithgow now.

Keeping the line open is still as important and a priority
Yes, diverting passengers on to the Bathgate route is an option, but it is only practical for those travelling between the main stations

I can't remember any recent blockades at Winchburgh, but the default does seem to be dump the four trains per hour to two trains per hour, via Falkirk High, and keep the service at least operating

There also seems to be confusion over which types of units are to be used
The original Glasgow QS program was to lengthen platforms 2 to 7 for longer 6 coach trains
However several news items advise the services will use 8 coach trains

 

[clc]

What will run the Paisley Canal service (since there are no more EMUs for a while)..:

314s and 380s according to local paper.

 

[170401]

314s and 380s according to local paper.

Their is currently plenty of spare capacity in the Glasgow emu fleet since they decided to keep the 314's running. The 380's were originally to see a cascade that would see the withdrawal of the 314's but this never happened. The entire fleet is now 16 (+ the Glasgow airport 380's) sets surplus spread across all the fleets, subject to any service improvements that have taken place since. I believe this spare capacity was created to accomodate the likes of Cumbernauld/Falkirk and southside services prior to the big EGIP emu order.

On a different note, I find the new price tag very interesting given that the lions share of the project has been mothballed. In the original plan the cost of electrification for the whole scheme was said to be in the region of £300 million. with depots, junction remodelling and the new line through winchburgh taking up the lions share. Now we have all that cut out and electrification cut by about 40% and yet the price is still more than double the original estimate of electrification.

Seems like someone at Holyrood's got a lot of explaining to do to me?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Their is currently plenty of spare capacity in the Glasgow emu fleet since they decided to keep the 314's running. The 380's were originally to see a cascade that would see the withdrawal of the 314's but this never happened. The entire fleet is now 16 (+ the Glasgow airport 380's) sets surplus spread across all the fleets, subject to any service improvements that have taken place since. I believe this spare capacity was created to accomodate the likes of Cumbernauld/Falkirk and southside services prior to the big EGIP emu order.

Looks like Northern have just found a source of extra EMUs for the North West electrification...

 

[clc]

.

On a different note, I find the new price tag very interesting given that the lions share of the project has been mothballed. In the original plan the cost of electrification for the whole scheme was said to be in the region of £300 million. with depots, junction remodelling and the new line through winchburgh taking up the lions share. Now we have all that cut out and electrification cut by about 40% and yet the price is still more than double the original estimate of electrification.

Seems like someone at Holyrood's got a lot of explaining to do to me?

When did you hear it was £300 million? I've only ever heard the figure of £1 billion during the 5 years since I became aware of the project.

 

[170401]

Sorry, not sure where I've read that and a search doesn't come up with anything.

The £1 billion figure was to deliver the whole project, not just electrification. It would have included:

Electrification of:
Glasgow - Edinburgh
Polmont/Greenhill - Alloa/Dunblane
Springburn - Greenhill.

Remodelled grade seperated junctions at:
Greenhill, Winchburgh and on the "Almond chord"

Upgraded and new line from Winchburgh to Edinburgh gateway including the "Almond chord"

New Garngad chord linking the Cumbernauld line directly to Queen st low level.

Croy turnback facility.

Polmaise (Stirling) depot.

And possibly more goodies I've forgotten about.


Now for £650 million we get:

Glasgow - Edinburgh via Falkirk High electrification
Glasgow - Cumbernauld (possibly Falkirk Grahamston) electrification.

And not much more reading between the lines!



Seems to me like we are being seriously short changed, either that or the sums didn't add up in the first place.

 

[Scotrail84]

Sorry, not sure where I've read that and a search doesn't come up with anything.

The £1 billion figure was to deliver the whole project, not just electrification. It would have included:

Electrification of:
Glasgow - Edinburgh
Polmont/Greenhill - Alloa/Dunblane
Springburn - Greenhill.

Remodelled grade seperated junctions at:
Greenhill, Winchburgh and on the "Almond chord"

Upgraded and new line from Winchburgh to Edinburgh gateway including the "Almond chord"

New Garngad chord linking the Cumbernauld line directly to Queen st low level.

Croy turnback facility.

Polmaise (Stirling) depot.

And possibly more goodies I've forgotten about.


Now for £650 million we get:

Glasgow - Edinburgh via Falkirk High electrification
Glasgow - Cumbernauld (possibly Falkirk Grahamston) electrification.

And not much more reading between the lines!



Seems to me like we are being seriously short changed, either that or the sums didn't add up in the first place.

Hud oan the noo. Surly all this better than nowt. Most of it was all pie in sky stuff anyway no?

 

[rail-britain]

New Garngad chord linking the Cumbernauld line directly to Queen st low level

This scheme had been dropped from EGIP some time ago, no longer included in the £1bn
This was revised to a turnback at Kelvin, later changed to an upgraded Hyndland station and layout

This has now been simplified to electrification between Springburn and Cumbernauld only

Also, there is no mention of Hyndland
I therefore assume this also has been dropped

 

[Train Pilchard]

Where are these spare 314s for Paisley Canal?

Are they not only used on the Neilston/Circle/Newton services? Sending some to Paisley Canal will have an impact on these services surely?

I like the frequency of those trains and hope they aren't cut because frankly they are all needed. I fail to believe they have 314s kicking around because if they did why the hell are some of the busiest evening peak services not doubled to 6 carriages? The 18.07 Central to Neilston is always 3 cars and is always London Underground packed for example.

 

[Failed Unit]

There were loads of companies and organisations that were in favour of the original EGIP scheme

I bet non of the ones in favour were based at Edinburgh Park!

As for train lengths I guess 7 coach trains in the peak would work now. Platform 7 at Queen Street can already take them as will many of Waverley's. Although unless the extend platforms SDO will be needed everywhere else.

8 Coach would need just a but of work at Queen Street.

 

[tbtc]

Where are these spare 314s for Paisley Canal?

Are they not only used on the Neilston/Circle/Newton services? Sending some to Paisley Canal will have an impact on these services surely?

There are a few doubled up 334s on Bathgate duties aren't there?

Chop these into single unit diagrams, put the "spare" 334s on 318/320 duties, put those 318/320s on 314 diagrams, put the resultant 314s on the Paisley Canal duty (should only need a couple of EMUs anyway).

What do you do with the 156s from Paisley Canal? Replace the 158s on Whifflet duties and move those 158s to Fife?

 

[clc]

.


Now for £650 million we get:

Glasgow - Edinburgh via Falkirk High electrification
Glasgow - Cumbernauld (possibly Falkirk Grahamston) electrification.

And not much more reading between the lines!



Seems to me like we are being seriously short changed, either that or the sums didn't add up in the first place.

What do you think the electrification of those routes would cost? Its costing £12 million to electrify 5 miles Paisley Canal line = £2.4m per mile, would that be representative? There's also Haymarket and Queen Street redevelopments. Perhaps the £650m includes the trains, say £200m?

 

[Train Pilchard]

How many units do you think the Paisley Canal line needs?

I don't want 318s on the Circle lines, 314's are better for busy trains cause they have loads of standing room.

Off topic but on Thursday there was a 320 on Platform 8 of Central around 9.15, what had that been up to? Very rarely see them up on the high level.

 

[Failed Unit]

There are a few doubled up 334s on Bathgate duties aren't there?

Chop these into single unit diagrams, put the "spare" 334s on 318/320 duties, put those 318/320s on 314 diagrams, put the resultant 314s on the Paisley Canal duty (should only need a couple of EMUs anyway).

What do you do with the 156s from Paisley Canal? Replace the 158s on Whifflet duties and move those 158s to Fife?

From experience the doubled 334s are normally busy from Queen Street, but probably not very full once they have got out of the SPT area.

I guess with the 320 and 334 refurbishment programme, more units could be available once it is completed.

 

[rail-britain]

Where are these spare 314s for Paisley Canal?

Two Class 314 units will be required, but at peak times two 4-car Class 380 units will be used
It is simply a swap of existing diagrams
At the moment one of these 4-car Class 380 units operates around the Cathcart Circle in the morning

 

[Train Pilchard]

Two Class 314 units will be required, but at peak times two 4-car Class 380 units will be used
It is simply a swap of existing diagrams
At the moment one of these 4-car Class 380 units operates around the Cathcart Circle in the morning

So what happens on the cicle when it's nicked?

 

[rail-britain]

There are a few doubled up 334s on Bathgate duties aren't there?

Pairs of Class 334 units via Bathgate will not change, this is now the contingency route
Once all the Class 320 units have been overhauled it is expected all the Bathgate diagrams will be pairs of Class 334 units throughout the weekday (08:00 to 19:00)

What do you do with the 156s from Paisley Canal? Replace the 158s on Whifflet duties and move those 158s to Fife?

Only two Class 156 units will be released
That now makes sense with the change from December on Class 156 priority on the Shotts line, which would release two Class 158 units for Fife services
I am still surprised at the Motherwell - Cumbernauld being operated by a Class 158, there is no need for this and could easily revert to Class 156

 

[Failed Unit]

Pairs of Class 334 units via Bathgate will not change, this is now the contingency route
Once all the Class 320 units have been overhauled it is expected all the Bathgate diagrams will be pairs of Class 334 units throughout the weekday (08:00 to 19:00)


Only two Class 156 units will be released
That now makes sense with the change from December on Class 156 priority on the Shotts line, which would release two Class 158 units for Fife services
I am still surprised at the Motherwell - Cumbernauld being operated by a Class 158, there is no need for this and could easily revert to Class 156

That means Bathgates route will have more capacity than the falkirk route which only gets a single 170 must of the day!

Hope E&G gets corridor connections to assist the gaurd and reduce the high level of fare dodging on the route.
maybe get some 153s for Motherwell - Cumbernauld If only Scotrail had some of those for routes such as Glasgow - Anniesland. Shame the pacers never arrived.

 

[rail-britain]

So what happens on the cicle when it's nicked?

This service will swap to a pair of Class 314 units, one unit displaced by the upcoming change to the Glasgow - Kilwinning timetable at the same time

 

[170401]

Hud oan the noo. Surly all this better than nowt. Most of it was all pie in sky stuff anyway no?

Agreed, my point was the costings. The new option seems awfy expensive to me compared to the original for what we are going to end up with.

 

[rail-britain]

That means Bathgates route will have more capacity than the falkirk route which only gets a single 170 must of the day!

Yes, between Glasgow and Edinburgh it does mean greater capacity via Bathgate, but there are more passengers travelling along the entire route
Equally, when used as a contignency the demand will exceed the capacity

maybe get some 153s for Motherwell - Cumbernauld If only Scotrail had some of those for routes such as Glasgow - Anniesland

As discussed previously, using such a small fleet of Class 153 units is not practical, it is better to use Class 156 units

Shame the pacers never arrived

I am glad SPTE did not receive its fleet of pacers nor the later proposed 150/2 units, and received Class 156 units instead, thanks to the BR strike in the early 1980s
The trial unit operated out of Glasgow Central (on East Kilbride services) and during peak times it was pathetic, on some occasions passengers had to be left behind although obviously if there had been two units that might have helped!
For some reason it was not replaced by a 6 car traditional DMU instead

 

[170401]

This scheme had been dropped from EGIP some time ago, no longer included in the £1bn

It was dropped some time ago and I believe the scheme price was altered accordingly but never publiscised. Nonetheless it was part of the original £1 billion pound scheme, so I ask again, where has all the money gone? Far far to much has been dropped for the scheme to still cost £650 million, so whose pocket is getting lined with all the money?
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Where are these spare 314s for Paisley Canal?

Are they not only used on the Neilston/Circle/Newton services? Sending some to Paisley Canal will have an impact on these services surely?

No, as i've already stated, the Glasgow fleet currently has substantial spare capacity. The reason this is not currently used to provide extra capacity is because it will be required for other purposes one day IE Paisley canal. No current services will be cut back to provide stock for Paisley, Cumbernauld or whatever else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What do you think the electrification of those routes would cost? Its costing £12 million to electrify 5 miles Paisley Canal line = £2.4m per mile, would that be representative? There's also Haymarket and Queen Street redevelopments. Perhaps the £650m includes the trains, say £200m?

Both Haymarket and Queen st redevelopments were supposed to be independent of EGIP. Previous proposals for Queen street were a collaboration between Network rail and Buchannan galeries. Granted though, the rail side of the queen st project would've been EGIP.

 

[jopsuk]

I bet non of the ones in favour were based at Edinburgh Park!

As for train lengths I guess 7 coach trains in the peak would work now. Platform 7 at Queen Street can already take them as will many of Waverley's. Although unless the extend platforms SDO will be needed everywhere else.

8 Coach would need just a but of work at Queen Street.

How much work 8-coach needs depends upon whether it is 20 or 23nm carriages- Scotrail currently seem to favour 23m, with the 380s being this long along with the entire DMU fleet. 8-car 23m requires an extra 24m of platform!

 

[Train Pilchard]

No, as i've already stated, the Glasgow fleet currently has substantial spare capacity. The reason this is not currently used to provide extra capacity is because it will be required for other purposes one day IE Paisley canal. No current services will be cut back to provide stock for Paisley, Cumbernauld or whatever else.

Thanks for the info, seems unbelievable they have 314s sitting around and don't double some of the evening peaks. The 18.07 to Neilston must be the most packed train that leaves Central.