• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Edinburgh Tram developments

Status
Not open for further replies.

FlybeDash8Q400

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2018
Messages
3,006
Location
Edinburgh
A well funded campaign supported by people from some of the richest parts of Edinburgh with the financial ability to take it up to the very highest levels of the Scottish legal system? (https://www.savetheroseburnpath.com/)
Flip side argument though is in hours of darkness the path is effectively useless. It’s not safe to use it in the dark, as is the case with most paths of this nature. So any legal challenge would need to demonstrate that if it’s kept, how it is used effectively. Counter arguers would just immediately say the road is already used 24/7 while the path is used for barely more than 12 hours of the day. Obviously in the Winter it’s even less. A tram line would be able to use it all day.

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, but these are the sort of points that will no doubt be brought up.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
4,145
Flip side argument though is in hours of darkness the path is effectively useless. It’s not safe to use it in the dark, as is the case with most paths of this nature. So any legal challenge would need to demonstrate that if it’s kept, how it is used effectively. Counter arguers would just immediately say the road is already used 24/7 while the path is used for barely more than 12 hours of the day. Obviously in the Winter it’s even less. A tram line would be able to use it all day.
I do recognise the argument, and I think they will lose the case if they bring it to legal challenge, but any legal challenge will hold the project up and add costs, even if the argument is spurious.
If (and I appreciate it's a big "if") Dean Bridge can hold trams, then that route is the obvious choice, even if it needed some sort of LTN on most of the sections south of Crewe Toll.
The proposal is to keep a footpath/cycle path alongside the new tramway, not to close it.
The cycle/footpath will not satisfy all of them, that demand is really a trojan horse for something else - i.e. wealthy people (some of who will be NIMBYs proper) in the surrounding residential areas do not want noisy objects or people in general near their properties 24/7, as opposed to a quiet cycle and residential path that is well-shielded from their houses by greenery.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2018
Messages
3,006
Location
Edinburgh
I do recognise the argument, and I think they will lose the case if they bring it to legal challenge, but any legal challenge will hold the project up and add costs, even if the argument is spurious.
If (and I appreciate it's a big "if") Dean Bridge can hold trams, then that route is the obvious choice, even if it needed some sort of LTN on most of the sections south of Crewe Toll.

The cycle/footpath will not satisfy all of them, that demand is really a trojan horse for something else - i.e. wealthy people (some of who will be NIMBYs proper) in the surrounding residential areas do not want noisy objects or people in general near their properties 24/7, as opposed to a quiet cycle and residential path that is well-shielded from their houses by greenery.
I still struggle to view either as the obvious choice just due to the sheer issues that both bring. Whichever is chosen there’s going to be costs from legal challenges.

As I say putting in LTN’s would be very tricky. You’d get as much as a legal challenge from that as the Roseburn Path. Potential resident issues from roads that may see an increase in traffic, such as Comely Bank Avenue. Any road that gains traffic will almost certainly cause moaning from residents.

Orchard Brae is the only road you’d get away with an LTN on, but again you’d just be forcing the traffic onto Comely Bank Avenue or Orchard Road. Crewe Road South for me is still a no go for an LTN due to the hospital itself. You MIGHT be able to throw in a bus gate at West Woods IF access is made possible into the hospital from both ends. At the moment it’s a one way access. I can’t see how there’s space to do this. You’d lose the turning point for the buses at the hospital which when combined with the loss of Comely Bank and Crewe Toll roundabouts would leave next to nowhere for a bus turning point.

You’re right though, Dean Bridge is the big IF. Should that not be able to handle trams - entirely possible as has never had trams, then the ideas dead before it’s even got going.

I wonder what would happen if Dean Bridge was found unsuitable but Roseburn had so many objections. What do the council do at that point?
 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
4,145
As I say putting in LTN’s would be very tricky. You’d get as much as a legal challenge from that as the Roseburn Path. Potential resident issues from roads that may see an increase in traffic, such as Comely Bank Avenue. Any road that gains traffic will almost certainly cause moaning from residents.
It depends which roads see a gain in traffic. If the effect of the LTNs is such that traffic is pushed out north of the Telford Road for the most part, then the complaints will be likely ignored by the council (due to the demographic makeup of the majority of that area).
If e.g. Comely Bank Avenue was jammed, I agree that the residents would cause issues, but it wouldn't be particularly easy for residents to hold up the tram construction over it.
You’re right though, Dean Bridge is the big IF. Should that not be able to handle trams - entirely possible as has never had trams, then the ideas dead before it’s even got going.

I wonder what would happen if Dean Bridge was found unsuitable but Roseburn had so many objections. What do the council do at that point?
Build the route south of the City Centre and refuse to invest in NW Edinburgh transport for a while?
 

Bus9120UK

Established Member
Joined
5 Oct 2019
Messages
1,901
Location
Edinburgh
The proposal is to keep a footpath/cycle path alongside the new tramway, not to close it.
Living in the west side of the city and using the Roseburn path reguarly, I have naturally aligned with being against the tram using the path. I couldn't even properlu explain why. I'm certainly not wealthy, and it's nothing about noise. It just morally doesn't sit with me having an important (at least to me!) space like this have a tram line built down the side. I suppose for me its more about the environment that you enter when walking along the path. I view it as a brief escape from modern day society being able to walk through nature and having trams down the side completely kills that. With age, I've come to appreciate these spaces a lot more. If it ends up being the best option, which it probably will, at least the path would still there, but it would be a true shame losing it in its current form.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,304
A point to remember here - the legal authority to build the tram on the Roseburn Path already exists or existed. It may have lapsed, but the principle is pretty solid. Those opposed to the Roseburn Path route would need to explain why something which is/was until recently the law of the land is now cause for legal battles. Yes, they might not like it, but that doesn't mean they have a real legal case.

The bigger issue with the tram in general is that the level of new development which justified the tram back in 2003-07 is probably not enough today. Yes, the tram will still help to unlock some development potential along the waterfront but is that actually enough to justify the costs? The city has essentially run out of easy prime development land near to existing or planned public transport corridors. The solution to housing requirements can't really be to just point at empty plots, when those empty plots have disappeared and been filled with housing and other things. We need new development opportunities and those low density suburbs to the north west of the city, around either the Roseburn or Crewe Road South corridors, are not the worst candidates for redevelopment and densification. If the land between Telford Road and the new tram line were empty today, would you really propose building a lot of two storey terraced houses? No, it'd be 6 storeys or more, like other plots nearby. And redevelopment like this provides a good opportunity to better integrate public transport into the wider area. E.g. a proper "main road" with ground floor retail linking the tram stop and the Western General.
 

SamCam

Member
Joined
7 Mar 2024
Messages
37
Location
Edinburgh
I do recognise the argument, and I think they will lose the case if they bring it to legal challenge, but any legal challenge will hold the project up and add costs, even if the argument is spurious.
If (and I appreciate it's a big "if") Dean Bridge can hold trams, then that route is the obvious choice, even if it needed some sort of LTN on most of the sections south of Crewe Toll.

The cycle/footpath will not satisfy all of them, that demand is really a trojan horse for something else - i.e. wealthy people (some of who will be NIMBYs proper) in the surrounding residential areas do not want noisy objects or people in general near their properties 24/7, as opposed to a quiet cycle and residential path that is well-shielded from their houses by greenery.
Ironically, many of the NIMBYs opposing the Roseburn Path route are among those who would be most disadvantaged by severe traffic restrictions on Dean Bridge...
 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
4,145
Ironically, many of the NIMBYs opposing the Roseburn Path route are among those who would be most disadvantaged by severe traffic restrictions on Dean Bridge...
True, although the Belford Road route provides a reasonable diversion for lighter vehicles.
 

Avenger20

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
282
During the closure this weekend, how are trams reversing at Haymarket? I'm guessing they will need to run "wrong line" and use the crossovers at Haymarket Yards?
 
Joined
28 Nov 2021
Messages
372
Location
Leith
During the closure this weekend, how are trams reversing at Haymarket? I'm guessing they will need to run "wrong line" and use the crossovers at Haymarket Yards?
This closure seems to have been very badly publicised - I caught the tram from Haymarket to Leith last night and neither saw nor heard any mention of the central section being closed over the weekend. And the service info screen on the Lothian Buses/Edinburgh Trams app currently says there are no updates for the tram (which tends to confirm that the app is reliably useless...).
 

enginedin

Member
Joined
15 Dec 2020
Messages
473
Location
UK
Why should it? They've never sold tickets on trams, and they're still verifying whether someone has either a ticket or has tapped on with a card.

(As an aside, it's pretty random whether you get checked or not. Even with the conductors who are pretty thorough, it's quite easy for them to miss you on a busy tram as they walk through)
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,814
Location
Stirlingshire
Why should it? They've never sold tickets on trams, and they're still verifying whether someone has either a ticket or has tapped on with a card.

(As an aside, it's pretty random whether you get checked or not. Even with the conductors who are pretty thorough, it's quite easy for them to miss you on a busy tram as they walk through)

Except for the £10 defaulters tickets ?

As long as you have a check at the Airport end I can't see the need for it.

I have been on loads of similar transport modes in the UK and abroad who don't see the need for their presence.

They soon disappeared during the pandemic.

if they removed them perhaps they could afford to abolish the Airport Supplement ?
 

N1

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2022
Messages
385
if they removed them perhaps they could afford to abolish the Airport Supplement ?
Airport supplement as I understand it is passing on the money Edinburgh Airport take per passenger, same as bus services. Seems wrong for general passengers to effectively subsidise those going to the airport.
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,814
Location
Stirlingshire
Airport supplement as I understand it is passing on the money Edinburgh Airport take per passenger, same as bus services. Seems wrong for general passengers to effectively subsidise those going to the airport.

And they can't even supply a smoking area airside - just the garrulous shops and food outlets :?:

Come back BAA all is forgiven.
 

SamCam

Member
Joined
7 Mar 2024
Messages
37
Location
Edinburgh
With the introduction of Tap and Go is the end of Conductors on the horizon ?
If they do remove regular conductors from trams, I expect they would want to bring in the random ticket checks you see on lots of European systems instead, where a large team of revenue protection officers board en masse at occasional stops. I doubt this would be enough of a personnel/cost saving to be worthwhile, but I could be wrong.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
22,710
Location
West of Andover
If they do remove regular conductors from trams, I expect they would want to bring in the random ticket checks you see on lots of European systems instead, where a large team of revenue protection officers board en masse at occasional stops. I doubt this would be enough of a personnel/cost saving to be worthwhile, but I could be wrong.
Maybe similar to Nottingham Trams when they changed over from "buy on board" to "buy before you board" with the 2nd member of staff disappearing and replaced with random revenue blocks?

(See also Croydon & Manchester)
 

FlybeDash8Q400

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2018
Messages
3,006
Location
Edinburgh

Avenger20

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
282
It was never planned to be a stop. It was a staff changeover point which stopped being used when Edinburgh Gateway opened.
I believe the OP is referring to what looks like a two lane road crossing over the tramway between the park and ride and Gogarburn.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2018
Messages
3,006
Location
Edinburgh
I believe the OP is referring to what looks like a two lane road crossing over the tramway between the park and ride and Gogarburn.
Yes there’s a good few road crossings out there.

Looking at it again though, the OP is actually referring to a section of covered track west of said crossing, rather than the crossing. Is this possibly a future proofed West Town stop?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top