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Edinburgh Tram developments

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90019

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I would love to buy both Khib70 and Busaholic a pint! You gentlemen actually get it!
I get it as I get to see, on an almost daily basis, what it's doing to parts of the city and more importantly what it's doing to Lothian Buses.
I just don't bother posting about it in here anymore.

which is perhaps the real reason behind the very public infighting at Lothian Buses at the moment?
This may be about to rear it's ugly head again very soon, and there is the potential for a major excrement/ventilation interface at Lothian Buses in the near future.
 
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Blindtraveler

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Don't ah get even a half pint:(

I'am hurt

:)

Yes you do! An oversight on my part as was posting in a rush, sorry mate, pints all round it is and a tost to those with a sense of realism and understanding where this silly project is concerned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I get it as I get to see, on an almost daily basis, what it's doing to parts of the city and more importantly what it's doing to Lothian Buses.
I just don't bother posting about it in here anymore.


This may be about to rear it's ugly head again very soon, and there is the potential for a major excrement/ventilation interface at Lothian Buses in the near future.

Coming for drinkies too my friend? Naturally Wed wate till your days off, unless your out for a new job? Wouldnt blame you right now - It cant be a happy ship!↲
 

90019

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Coming for drinkies too my friend? Naturally Wed wate till your days off, unless your out for a new job? Wouldnt blame you right now - It cant be a happy ship!↲

Nah, I'm teetotal. ;)
I'm staying where I am, as I'm not going to get a better job driving buses anywhere else, and for the moment things are still good for me. We'll just have to wait and see how things go.

It's just a shame I can't really say much more than gets printed in the Evening News.
 

Busaholic

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I don't think it's quite that bad.

Future extensions in Manchester and Nottingham will be judged much more by the success of the tramways there, in timely completion, minimising disruption and running a reliable service that attracts forecast numbers of passengers. Manchester has done pretty well on these criteria, and had more extensions approved. The jury is still out in Nottingham with significant completion delays and more disruption than expected but at least the contractor carries the overspend. I don't know enough about Birmingham to comment.

In London there is still work going on for Crystal Palace and Sutton extensions, but it doesn't seem to have much sense of urgency. There are few places trams will work in London unless buses are cut back drastically on the routes concerned, and even more unlikely the powerful taxi lobby is faced down, curtailing their freedom to drive and pollute where they like.

The real effect of the Edinburgh situation will be seen in Edinburgh itself, but also in any other cities that might be thinking about light rail. None of the cities turned down by Darling looks like re-applying any time soon, and nowhere else has replaced them so the queue of proposals awaiting powers and funding around the turn of the century has vanished. Pretty much all serious UK light rail interest is now in extensions to existing networks.

I've been sorry to read about the delays in Nottingham and hope they don't set things back too much. Manchester is the obvious beacon of light in all this, but it's Cardiff, Bristol, Oxford,Portsmouth, Leeds, Plymouth, Hull, Ipswich etc etc which badly need some trams, even if only one or two lines in some of them.

In London, for two successive manifestoes B. Johnson has promised that Crystal Palace extension but, despite that, no work is being done that I know of and Sutton couldn't begin to be seriously thought about until doubling of more sections of the Wimbledon branch and a permanent solution to the Wimbledon Station problem. Instead, it seems a further loop may be created at East Croydon to enable some short workings from the Addiscombe Road direction without using West Croydon: this will run along Lansdowne Road. My guess is that this will be used to provide more trams from Addington to East Croydon at peak times, not having to worry about capacity issues on the Wimbledon branch.
 

Leki

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I would love to buy both Khib70 and Busaholic a pint! You gentlemen actually get it!

Very fitting as some of the posts have as much insight as what some would call a 'pub rant'. :)

On the subject of the trams setting back other projects. Firstly, Edinburgh's project was dragged through the hedge despite being preceded by successful projects - the people using Edinburgh as an 'excuse' would have found another reason to complain. Secondly, it was the spurious opposition that lead to the political games that got the project into bother in the first place. There's nothing about that which is the fault of trams as a mode of transport.

As for TfE's "integrated network", it doesn't even integrate with the only other bus company operating in the area, or with heavy rail. It's so integrated that the tram stops a considerable distance from both the airport terminal and the main railway station.

It's easy for enthusiasts to sit several hundred miles away and defend the indefensible. Those of us who were mugged to pay for this incompetent vanity project, and have to watch it trundling fresh air from nowhere to nowhere are less tolerant, and rightly so

There are two direct heavy rail interchanges.
Direct interchange with the bus station where various other bus companies stop, if cross-platform interchange with First, Citylink etc isn't enough for you at Haymarket.
Waverley will be served by future lines.
I'm 0 miles away.
Fresh air plus 90k passengers per week.
The airport and city centre via various business parks, shopping centre, college/uni and high density housing are not nowhere.
 

kylemore

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Very fitting as some of the posts have as much insight as what some would call a 'pub rant'. :)

On the subject of the trams setting back other projects. Firstly, Edinburgh's project was dragged through the hedge despite being preceded by successful projects - the people using Edinburgh as an 'excuse' would have found another reason to complain. Secondly, it was the spurious opposition that lead to the political games that got the project into bother in the first place. There's nothing about that which is the fault of trams as a mode of transport.



There are two direct heavy rail interchanges.
Direct interchange with the bus station where various other bus companies stop, if cross-platform interchange with First, Citylink etc isn't enough for you at Haymarket.
Waverley will be served by future lines.
I'm 0 miles away.
Fresh air plus 90k passengers per week.
The airport and city centre via various business parks, shopping centre, college/uni and high density housing are not nowhere.

Ok how many times does it have to be said that criticism of this project does not imply criticism of Trams as a mode of Transport:)

Big fan of Manchester where they have done a lot with relatively little though even there some things could have been done differently - but overall a great achievement showcasing Light Rail in a UK urban setting.

Edinburgh is a disgrace and it wasn't "political games"- it was just downright incompetence. And as for "Insight", I worked for Edinburgh Council Public Transport Unit at the crucial period - not on the Tram project but I knew the characters involved and their woeful performance on areas I was involved in.

I and others knew it would be a mess, but we thought it would all be built - years late and over budget of course - but we never dreamed that it would be quite so bad!
 
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Blindtraveler

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And finally, the trumped up numbers punted out are just that, trumped. Its all very well for anybody anywhere to sit and say oh well the numbers say this but how anyone, tram appologist or not can openly dispute what local people who actually live here are saying is the realitty. Trams are great and the correct answer in many cases but not this one!
 

Leki

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Ok how many times does it have to be said that criticism of this project does not imply criticism of Trams as a mode of Transport:)

Ah, sorry, I mean the trams in Edinburgh - i.e. the merits of trams running on Edinburgh's streets should have nothing to do with the project delivery.

Edinburgh is a disgrace and it wasn't "political games"- it was just downright incompetence. And as for "Insight", I worked for Edinburgh Council Public Transport Unit at the crucial period - not on the Tram project but I knew the characters involved and their woeful performance on areas I was involved in.

If it wasn't political games then why were Transport Scotland originally involved in the tram project, then removed once the SNP were outvoted to continue the project, only to be put back by the Government 'fixing' everything?

That's certainly not to absolve Tie (the project management team, for those not familiar) - you're not wrong about the characters involved. Utterly useless on more than one project.

However, in the early days if the focus hadn't been on the attempted cancellation the trams and the suspected rushing of contracts etc, then their ability could have been better scrutinised.

Again, none of that has any bearing on the trams as they are now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And finally, the trumped up numbers punted out are just that, trumped. Its all very well for anybody anywhere to sit and say oh well the numbers say this but how anyone, tram appologist or not can openly dispute what local people who actually live here are saying is the realitty. Trams are great and the correct answer in many cases but not this one!

Is being just outside Edinburgh my whole life and then the last ten years actually living in the city local enough for you?:D

So now we've cleared that, what reasons do you have for tram not being the answer then?
 

PG

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Not sure if this has been in the press or otherwise mentioned and thought it might be of interest to other forum members - Stagecoach saying, in not so many words, that the trams are effecting the operation of their services so they've had to adjust the timetables to reflect the reality.
Stagecoach East Scotland said:
Stagecoach East Scotland would like to advise passengers of a number of bus service improvements in the Fife and Edinburgh areas effective from Monday 2nd February 2015. These changes aim to improve the reliability of our Edinburgh services following the introduction of the Edinburgh Trams and analysis of how the other significant city centre traffic management arrangements have affected our services.
 

Blindtraveler

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Again I always said this would happen too. The users of these workings have every right to complain here and I hope many do!
 

khib70

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Very fitting as some of the posts have as much insight as what some would call a 'pub rant'. :)

On the subject of the trams setting back other projects. Firstly, Edinburgh's project was dragged through the hedge despite being preceded by successful projects - the people using Edinburgh as an 'excuse' would have found another reason to complain. Secondly, it was the spurious opposition that lead to the political games that got the project into bother in the first place. There's nothing about that which is the fault of trams as a mode of transport.



There are two direct heavy rail interchanges.
Direct interchange with the bus station where various other bus companies stop, if cross-platform interchange with First, Citylink etc isn't enough for you at Haymarket.
Waverley will be served by future lines.
I'm 0 miles away.
Fresh air plus 90k passengers per week.
The airport and city centre via various business parks, shopping centre, college/uni and high density housing are not nowhere.

You're repeatedly, and I think wilfully, missing the point. As someone else has pointed out, no one is criticising the concept of urban light rail, which works well all over the world when it's properly managed, well planned, and run according to the needs of local people. The criticisms are all of the mindblowingly incompetent and profligate project management, the inept routing, inefficient operation and general uselessness of this particular version. If there is any positive to be gained from the whole farrago, it's that it will provide a template for how not to design and implement light rail systems in future.

There is, as you say, a minimal level of physical interchange between the tram, bus and heavy rail. I think airport passengers dumped off a tram with their luggage in the middle of Princes Street, 300 metres from the station entrance would probably not share your rose-tinted view of it, however. Neither will those who pay the inflated fare to the airport, and emerge from the Gogar ghost train bends to be downloaded at a spot barely within sight of the terminal entrance.

There is no integrated ticketing between the two major bus operators or with heavy rail, except for the staggeringly expensive and equally unpopular OneTicket scheme. That is what I meant by lack of integration.

The disastrous and expensive shenanigans at Lothian Buses are a direct result of this successful and previously well run operator being mugged to prop up the tram disaster. There will be an enquiry into all this and hopefully, heads will roll. But it won't give the taxpayer back the billion pounds that disappeared down this black hole.

And no one here shares your touching faith in TfE's usage figures. But since you seem to have conjured up a university/college and high density housing along the route out of thin air, you'll probably continue to believe the equally fantastic notion that this whole project is a raging success.
 

Leki

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You're repeatedly, and I think wilfully, missing the point. As someone else has pointed out, no one is criticising the concept of urban light rail, which works well all over the world when it's properly managed, well planned, and run according to the needs of local people. The criticisms are all of the mindblowingly incompetent and profligate project management, the inept routing, inefficient operation and general uselessness of this particular version. If there is any positive to be gained from the whole farrago, it's that it will provide a template for how not to design and implement light rail systems in future.

Project management problems as I've said repeatedly and in my first post were a shambles, yes.

I'm still waiting to hear a single reason why that means the tram line as it stands now is 'unless'.

There is, as you say, a minimal level of physical interchange between the tram, bus and heavy rail. I think airport passengers dumped off a tram with their luggage in the middle of Princes Street, 300 metres from the station entrance would probably not share your rose-tinted view of it, however. Neither will those who pay the inflated fare to the airport, and emerge from the Gogar ghost train bends to be downloaded at a spot barely within sight of the terminal entrance.

This could go on forever. :) Ok, please acknowledge the following:

Is there or is there not two direct rail interchanges on the route which allow every(?) rail service coming into the city from the west to alight onto the tram directly at Haymarket, if not Edinburgh Park?
Is there cross-platform bus interchange at these stops?
Is there an attempt at most trams stop to both physically have bus stops close by and to advertise Lothian Buses services on board trams?

And incidentally, to serve Waverley now (rather than wait for future lines) the trams would have missed the bus station. So you can't have it both ways.

There is no integrated ticketing between the two major bus operators or with heavy rail, except for the staggeringly expensive and equally unpopular OneTicket scheme. That is what I meant by lack of integration.

Are you seriously criticising the lack of ticket integration with private operator First, who not only operate a minority of services in the city, but have no obligation to do anything? Unbelievable.

Otherwise:
100% ticket integration with Lothian Buses.
Plus Bus is accepted.
Direct rail tickets to EDI airport via the tram available.

So will you accept you've made a series of incorrect statements?

The disastrous and expensive shenanigans at Lothian Buses are a direct result of this successful and previously well run operator being mugged to prop up the tram disaster. There will be an enquiry into all this and hopefully, heads will roll. But it won't give the taxpayer back the billion pounds that disappeared down this black hole.

No one knows what's going on. Not the Evening News could find a reason to blame the trams for that.

And no one here shares your touching faith in TfE's usage figures. But since you seem to have conjured up a university/college and high density housing along the route out of thin air, you'll probably continue to believe the equally fantastic notion that this whole project is a raging success.

So I've made up Napier Uni and Edin College at Bankhead stop then have I? And look up the population density of the city.
 
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kylemore

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the Gogar ghost train bends

:lol:
All that space as well.

When I worked for Lothian Buses back in 2008/9 the talk was that the Airport Express Bus was to be withdrawn completely - or perhaps a few buses left on to serve Corstorphine to the Airport - in order to funnel the punters onto the Trams.

I think three things stopped that:

1. The realisation that under current legislation there would be nothing to stop another operator starting up and wiping the floor with the Trams (shades of CERT 2000 - remember that fiasco!?).

2. Linked to above Edinburgh Airport realising they were being sold a pup and being likely therefore to vigorously support another operator - they've always been lukewarm at best about the Trams.

3. The growing realisation that for various reasons the Trams just weren't going to cut the mustard as the only city centre to Airport link.
 
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Blindtraveler

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Fare point 90019, you have to protect yourself.

If airlink were to go entirely, I could see First very quickly bringing in a few high speck deckers and having a go at making a few quid in Edinburgh, something they aint done for a while lets be honest! Failing that, Stagecoach Im sure would, maybe under the gold brand, with full intigration with Megabus/Megabus Gold/Citylink with jt least some services Directly serving the bus station, which, incidentally is more than the tram does, with its 3 minute walk in the rain via a busy road crossing! ↲
 

kylemore

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So I've made up Napier Uni and Edin College at Bankhead stop then have I? And look up the population density of the city.

The vast majority of the students head to Calder Road just as they always have done! And incidently taking them to a large variety of destinations in the City without change of bus or mode.

From Murrayfield to Edinburgh Park the Tram passes through wide open spaces - essentially because it was easy and cheap to do so and to use up the daft busway.

Any properly planned Tram line heading west from Haymarket should have gone along either the Roseburn/Corstorphine Road or Gorgie/Calder Road corridors no matter what the difficulties were and because that is where the traffic is - the Tram should follow where the punters want to go, not try to make the punters go where it's easy to put the Trams - that's what would have happened in France or Germany.
 
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Leki

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Fare point 90019, you have to protect yourself.

If airlink were to go entirely, I could see First very quickly bringing in a few high speck deckers and having a go at making a few quid in Edinburgh, something they aint done for a while lets be honest! Failing that, Stagecoach Im sure would, maybe under the gold brand, with full intigration with Megabus/Megabus Gold/Citylink with jt least some services Directly serving the bus station, which, incidentally is more than the tram does, with its 3 minute walk in the rain via a busy road crossing! ↲

Now you're just on the wind up! You know fine well the tram stops right at the bus station.

The vast majority of the students head to Calder Road just as they always have done! And incidently taking them to a large variety of destinations in the City without change of bus or mode.

a) not what khib70 said and b) you certainly don't know that.

From Murrayfield to Edinburgh Park the Tram passes through wide open spaces - essentially because it was easy and cheap to do so and to use up the daft busway.

Any properly planned Tram line heading west from Haymarket should have gone along either the Roseburn/Corstorphine Road or Gorgie/Calder Road corridors no matter what the difficulties were and because that is where the traffic is - the Tram should follow where the punters want to go, not try to make the punters go where it's easy to put the Trams - that's what would have happened in France or Germany.

Anyone with Google maps can see what a gross exaggeration is. The corridor of land the trams run on was originally reserved for the M8(!), so naturally there are verges each side. It's hardly 'wide open space'. The housing immediately either side is much higher density than the suburban villas of Corstorphine.

Also, even if running down St John's Road etc wasn't impossible and likely to have produced even more moaning than there is now about the affect on traffic, it would miss the whole of Edinburgh Park, miss a rail connection, Murrayfield and the aforementioned uni and high density housing.

Apart from the Zoo and a single line of small hotels and B&B in Victorian villas fronting Corstorphine Road, where is it exactly you think the punters want to go on the A8?
 

kylemore

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Anyone with Google maps can see what a gross exaggeration is. The corridor of land the trams run on was originally reserved for the M8(!), so naturally there are verges each side. It's hardly 'wide open space'. The housing immediately either side is much higher density than the suburban villas of Corstorphine.

Also, even if running down St John's Road etc wasn't impossible and likely to have produced even more moaning than there is now about the affect on traffic, it would miss the whole of Edinburgh Park, miss a rail connection, Murrayfield and the aforementioned uni and high density housing.

Apart from the Zoo and a single line of small hotels and B&B in Victorian villas fronting Corstorphine Road, where is it exactly you think the punters want to go on the A8?

I still see lots of busy buses running along the Corstorphine and Gorgie/Calder Road corridors and not so busy (to say the least) Trams running through the Green fields at Broomhouse.
 

Leki

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I still see lots of busy buses running along the Corstorphine and Gorgie/Calder Road corridors and not so busy (to say the least) Trams running through the Green fields at Broomhouse.

Still claiming green fields?

Well that's great, as already discussed, the buses are busier than ever. But there's still 90k passengers who chose the tram.
 

NotATrainspott

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Keeping the trams segregated from normal traffic outside of the city centre is what makes them useful at getting people to/from the outskirts. If the trams had to wait in rush hour traffic all the way into Edinburgh from the airport, the trams wouldn't work significantly better than a bus.
 

kylemore

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Still claiming green fields?

Well that's great, as already discussed, the buses are busier than ever. But there's still 90k passengers who chose the tram.

Ok if everything is so rosy why is there a crisis?

This botched project is causing an ongoing crisis both in Lothian Buses where the directors are at each others throats and in the finances of Edinburgh Council where substantial cuts and redundancies are happening.
 

oldman

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This 90k per week is interesting. There are roughly 1500 journeys per week so that is around 60 per journey, all day, every day. Frankly I find that difficult to believe.

There was the initial curiosity surge and no doubt some tourists are still going for a ride on the famous Edinburgh tram, and there are Murrayfield crowds some days. It would be good to know the underlying figures for everyday traffic. I guess ET know - maybe they will tell us.
 

Leki

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Ok if everything is so rosy why is there a crisis?

This botched project is causing an ongoing crisis both in Lothian Buses where the directors are at each others throats and in the finances of Edinburgh Council where substantial cuts and redundancies are happening.

Not even the leaks made a single reference to the trams being the cause of issues at LB. Why would they be?

The council has a budget of £1 billion, I doubt the interest payments are puling them under.

This 90k per week is interesting. There are roughly 1500 journeys per week so that is around 60 per journey, all day, every day. Frankly I find that difficult to believe.

Not everyone travels end to end, so a single trip could hit 60 with only four people joining per stop.
 

Zoidberg

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Let the conspiracy theorists begin!

From: http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...fice-broken-into-and-laptops-stolen-1-3674939

The offices of the inquiry into the construction of the Edinburgh tram line were broken into last night, it has been revealed.

A spokesman for the inquiry said its offices on the first floor of the Waverley Gate building at the east end of Princes Street were broken into, and that police were investigating.

It is believed that items including laptops were stolen. It is not yet clear whether the inquiry was targeted by thieves.

...
 

tbtc

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There’s three stages to the tram scheme. Design, delivery and operation.

The design seems to have been pretty good (considering it was just one line, rather than attempting to build a whole "network") – the first line was intended to serve the Airport, the two main “out of town” shopping centres, the centre of the city, a couple of train stations, the bus station, major employment areas, a Park And Ride site, a sports stadium and the biggest “suburb” (without getting into arguments about whether Leith is its own place or part of the big city).

For one line, that seems to tick a lot of boxes! I’m struggling to think of how they could have designed one simple route that’d have provided more. Any other route would probably involve following bus routes (which slows the tram down, disrupts existing traffic further and begs the question “what was the point in building a tram that just follows the existing bus route?”).

Delivery? A shambles, obviously. The main problems seem to be that the council tried to do everything at once and tried to cut too many corners. If they’d focussed resources on the western end, they could have had a line from the Airport to Edinburgh Park (connecting the Airport to heavy rail) in operation whilst the section to Haymarket was under construction... then, once Haymarket was operational, the section through Princes Street could be built – and so on and so on until the full line to Leith was up and running. Instead, we had many years of diversions and disruption along the whole length of the proposed route – rather than focussing resources on individual areas. So, I can see why people are angry with the way the project was run (which caused the Leith section to be put on hold), but that has to be seen separately from the design and the operation of it.

As far as the operational side goes, it seems to be working okay. It’s had less of an impact upon bus routes than had previously been suggested, it’s managing to attract new passengers without just poaching them from bus routes (obviously some tram passengers are upgrading from the bus, but the tram is also attracting people who weren’t using the bus – however good Lothian Buses are). It’s certainly doing a lot better in its early days than the Sheffield system was!

There’s a fair bit of bluff and bluster on this thread from people trying to find a reason to complain about the design and operational side but I’m not sure what the problem is with those two aspects...

Complaints re the press release? Of course any press release from any organisation is going to focus on the positive – it’s no surprise that TiE are making their figures sound as good as possible – that’s what any organisation would do. There’ll be some churn in the figures, there always is – I don’t think anyone expected previous PR (in the pre-tram days) to say brutally honest things like “numbers only went up because First reduced their competing services” or "there was growth last year, but pretty much all from pensioners on free passes" or “the rise in flat fare to £1.50 saw a drop in short distance passengers but growth on longer distance journeys hid this” or “the new passengers generated by the 104/113 to East Lothian masked the reduction in the Muirhouse area passengers”. Anyone thinking that a TiE press release should focus on the negatives doesn’t understand how PR works...

There’s always been churn on bus routes, services to some places increase whilst others reduce. This generally happens without much wailing (look at the reduction on the Sherrifhall route when the 48/X48 and 86 were withdrawn...), but the moment the peak only X12 was withdrawn, it seems to made some hysterical!

There’s complaints that the tram figures only look good because the opening saw the withdrawal of a bus service (aforementioned peak only X12 to Ingleston Park & Ride), yet there are also complaints on this thread about how few people were using peak time trams out of the city towards Ingleston (so if these trams were only carrying half a dozen people – based on anecdotes on this thread – then the numbers using the tram weren’t just because of passengers who’d previously have been on the X12).

Worth remembering that the biggest reduction for Ingleston was when the all day 48/X48 (every fifteen minutes direct with peak extras) were replaced by a twenty minute extension of the 12 (via a slower route, serving the Gyle) and peak X12 – yet these changes/reductions saw nothing like the same number of complaints!

The tram fare to the Airport is apparently unfair (compared to the tram fare to the stop before, Ingleston), yet nobody was complaining when the bus fare to the Airport (on the fastest service - AirLink) was considerably more than the bus fare to Ingleston (ignoring the circuitous 35 that took twice as long to get to the Airport – i.e. not a route for longer distance passengers). Essentially, the moment it’s an excuse to moan about the tram, it becomes an issue...

And, imagine if the tram were only charging £1.50 to the Airport? There’d be complaints that this was undercutting the long established (but more expensive) Airlink buses and putting the flagship bus service in jeopardy.

Again, there’s complaints that the tram doesn’t directly duplicate bus routes (i.e. following the AirLink route past the Zoo and stopping at Waverley) but also complaints that it runs in areas that already have bus routes (and therefore duplicates them!)...

...there’s complaints that the tram route doesn’t just run along main roads (like the A8) and complaints that it causes a hazard for cyclists on the roads that it does run on (as a cyclist in Sheffield, I’ve never had an accident due to tram tracks – they are an obstacle that you need to be aware of but urban cycling involves lots of obstacles to be aware of).

The tram isn’t “integrated” with heavy rail? Apart from at Haymarket, you mean? And Edinburgh Park? Given that the vast majority of Edinburgh trains (maybe 90%?) serve Haymarket, is this really the end of the world? Are there large numbers of people coming to Waverley on “English” trains (i.e. the handful that don’t serve Haymarket) heading for the Airport? Do many people come from Newcastle to shop at the Gyle? Doubt it...

If I were travelling from most places in Scotland (Dundee/ Falkirk/ Glasgow etc) to the Gyle/ RBS/ Airport (etc) then why would I want to sit on a train all the way past Haymarket to Waverley only to sit on a tram from Waverley to Haymarket anyway? Surely I’d just get off at Haymarket (or even Edinburgh Park)! The “Waverley” stuff feels like a red herring, another grumble for the sake of grumbling.

The Edinburgh situation will stop other cities from building their own schemes? No, I think that the drastic cuts to Local Government budgets (so that our Town Halls won’t be able to provide anything other than Social Care – even if/when the economy is fully recovered, the days of ambitious Local Government initiatives are in the past).

But, even so, why should the badly managed Edinburgh scheme stop future ones? The badly managed Cambridgeshire Busway hasn’t stopped that scheme being a success once it opened, and hasn’t stopped Greater Manchester from wanting their own busway.

There’s no end of badly managed railway schemes that are seriously delayed/ significantly over-budget but that doesn’t seem to stop the appetite for more (nobody is suggesting that the messed up schemes at Tweedbank or Todmorden will mean no other railway reopenings/ reinstatements happen – nobody is treating the over-running engineering works over the recent festive period as reason not to do so again in future years), so I don’t buy the “it’s Edinburgh’s fault that no more tram systems will be built” argument.

So, whilst I’m not defending the “delivery” aspect, I think that the complaints about the design and the operation are generally wide of the mark (and often contradictory!). Interesting that nobody has any sensible solutions for alternative tram routes...
 

PaulLothian

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Let the conspiracy theorists begin!

From: http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...fice-broken-into-and-laptops-stolen-1-3674939

The offices of the inquiry into the construction of the Edinburgh tram line were broken into last night, it has been revealed.

A spokesman for the inquiry said its offices on the first floor of the Waverley Gate building at the east end of Princes Street were broken into, and that police were investigating.

It is believed that items including laptops were stolen. It is not yet clear whether the inquiry was targeted by thieves. ...

I am surprised they didn't call this 'Waverley Gate Gate'...
 

oldman

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Messages
1,340
Not even the leaks made a single reference to the trams being the cause of issues at LB. Why would they be?

TfE exists to 'integrate' the profitable bus operation with the tram line. Without the trams there would be no need for TfE. So there may not be a smoking gun, but there is a connection.

You have a new organisation TfE with four councillors, four LB executives and three others on its board (as of December 2013, the TfE website does not give any information about the current board or anything else for that matter) over a separate arms-length bus company with its own board including non-execs. There is scope for conflict when the same person is CEO of TfE (which has no staff of its own) and LB.

Two grievances against the CEO reported as upheld:

Spent £269,000 on unbudgeted spending for brand launch of Transport for Edinburgh without consultation.

Fellow executives were excluded from tram management, showing “little respect” for business ethos of Lothian Buses.

Not everyone travels end to end, so a single trip could hit 60 with only four people joining per stop.

My point was and is that the much-quoted 90k per week includes joyriders and special event passengers and is not the baseline figure.
 
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