• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Edinburgh Tram developments

Status
Not open for further replies.

dcsprior

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2012
Messages
862
Location
Edinburgh (Fri-Mon) & London (Tue-Thu)
For the trams to increase bus usage it would require people who were not using the buses previously to start making bi-modal journeys. This does not seem likely on a large scale when most areas of the city are not served by the tram.

Or people gave up attempting to drive into Edinburgh a few years ago in the midst of the tram works, and have never gone back to it.

Alternatively, people start going by bus because the bus service has improved because of reduced congestion thanks to the trams (I don't think so).

If you compare the ~5 years pre-tram (when the works to build them were going on) with post-tram, then it has improved drastically :)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Leki

Member
Joined
24 Dec 2014
Messages
31
Are you unaware of the management problems at Lothian Buses? They are very real and very damaging. The only 'integration' is that you can use bus tickets on the tram - and PR videos to tell us how successful TfE has been.

I have no idea what you mean by 'all bus services are a single line.' My line (to SW Edinburgh) is adversely impacted by the tram line to the west..

It's hardly 'only' that a range of tickets and smart cards allow unlimited travel across both. And most stops allow interchange to buses, the two rail interchanges were also designed to have cross-platform bus interchange.

What I was referring to was why are people so determined that a single tram line can't form part of an integrated transport system, yet the bus system is just a collection of single line bus routes.

A post hoc argument, I think. Without having some real numbers to crunch, it is impossible to say that there is a connection between increased bus usage and the tram. By and large bus usage has been increasing steadily for years in what is, after all, a growing city. We know, for example, that it has been a good year for tourism and we had a mild winter last year, which can make a difference. There has been a lot of promotion of season tickets which can increase passenger journey numbers as people hop on and off more.

For the trams to increase bus usage it would require people who were not using the buses previously to start making bi-modal journeys. This does not seem likely on a large scale when most areas of the city are not served by the tram. Alternatively, people start going by bus because the bus service has improved because of reduced congestion thanks to the trams (I don't think so).

Perhaps, but if the bus passengers are just increasing due to continuing upward trend, then that means the tram patronage is 100% new trips. Obviously not and it's a mixture, but to question whether that shows a positive tram effect or not is pushing it a bit, surely. I really doubt the bus service would have observed a massive tram plus bus increase patronage jump without.

In the spirit of scientific research I took a tram yesterday, about 1630, from SAS to Haymarket. Slightly over 10 minutes, then it waited at Haymarket for more than a minute after completing loading/unloading. There were plenty seats available throughout, I would estimate no more than 50 passengers, which is not great for that time of day. To me this demonstrates the lack of residential traffic to and from the area between the city centre and the western commercial districts. To be fair there were more passengers on a tram arriving from the west, who presumably would have been commuters.

Cutting off Leith was a big loss, which is one the highest density populations in the city. But if you're inclined to be unmoved by only 50 people in that 8 minute window, think about how you'd rather those 50 people travelled. In 50 cars? In a bus, which may add a good few minutes to service time? Or not bother at all? Certainly not unheard of for people to make city day trips (especially families using the £7.50 TfE day tickets) just because the trams are a bit more interesting than other ways.

Granted, for the cost it would be nice if the trams were comfortably full all day, but I'm not sure of any transport that is. But as well as extensions which the city will find easier to get than if it hadn't built anything, the trams tend to influence developer plans more than bus route so in the mean time increased activity along the route would be expected (as has happened already).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you compare the ~5 years pre-tram (when the works to build them were going on) with post-tram, then it has improved drastically :)

That's true, but it was bad before. Much of my support for the trams is based on bus experiences around 2006/07, when they had to negotiate pre-recession levels of traffic. At certain times of day it was quicker to walk.

Shandwick Place was a particularly long slog and now thanks to the trams, buses have the same priority there.
 

oldman

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
1,340
Perhaps, but if the bus passengers are just increasing due to continuing upward trend, then that means the tram patronage is 100% new trips. Obviously not and it's a mixture, but to question whether that shows a positive tram effect or not is pushing it a bit, surely. I really doubt the bus service would have observed a massive tram plus bus increase patronage jump without.

We do not know how much of the 3 million increase in bus usage is pre-tram January to May and how much post-tram June to December. TfE quote the figures as if it is axiomatic that there is a relationship between the introduction of the tram and the increase in bus usage. All part of the success of our wonderful 'integrated' transport system. We simply don't know.

Clearly some bus passengers have transferred to tram (those from Ingliston P and R for example as the direct bus service was withdrawn), so the gross number of new bus journeys is actually > 3 million. I just don't see how the existence of a single tram line can be credited with a surge in bus usage.

And by the way it was announced in mid-2014, 'Lothian Buses have announced they carried a record 115 million passengers last year [2013]- an increase of 4.6 million.' So the increase in 2014 was lower - funny they didn't mention that! Obviously I blame the trams :).
 

Leki

Member
Joined
24 Dec 2014
Messages
31
You haven't counted the 3 million 'new' tram trips, so overall 6 million increase for TfE last year.

Actually TfE didn't imply anything with their figures other than state everything was on the up.
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
13,684
Location
Yorkshire
You haven't counted the 3 million 'new' tram trips, so overall 6 million increase for TfE last year.

Actually TfE didn't imply anything with their figures other than state everything was on the up.

Overall, but not on buses which is what oldman was comparing.

I think the point is:

Increase in bus journeys for 2013: 4.6 million
Increase in bus journeys for 2014: 3 million
Increase in tram journeys for 2014: 3 million

What would the increase in bus journeys have been for 2014 without the tram?
 

Leki

Member
Joined
24 Dec 2014
Messages
31
We'll never know. But in the context of what the city was 'told', i.e. the trams will pull down the buses, only bus passengers will be forced to use them, etc, the figures are highly significant.

Certainly a far cry from the disaster many try to claim.
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
10,544
And how many of those tram journeys were taken by those forced onto them by having the buses cut to manipulate the figures? It certainly would be a disaster without those who have had there choice removed.
 

oldman

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
1,340
The press release http://lothianbuses.com/news/article/passengers-flock-to-tfe is corporate boasting by Transport for Edinburgh. The suggestion is that everything good is thanks to TfE.

Reality: One limited stop bus service withdrawn and some minor alterations to others
Press release: The Lothian Buses network has been successfully recast to accommodate and integrate with tram leading to significant passenger growth

Have the service changes led to growth - almost certainly not.

The quote by the soon-to-be-ex-CEO is characteristic of the self-deluding hype:

The first year of Transport for Edinburgh has been quite remarkable. We're seeing are fantastic results which are the sum of all the efforts put in from right at the outset by people at Edinburgh Trams, Lothian Buses, the City of Edinburgh Council and by all of our partners.

"We've had to invest and be bold to get here but I make no apology for leading that - we're in new territory. Establishing a new company and brand isn't easy but our investment is paying off and what we're seeing as a result is six million more people using public transport in 2014 over 2013.

"This is a huge shift which is of great benefit to Edinburgh's environment and it's economy. Transport for Edinburgh is the future and it benefits from the very best with Lothian Buses and Edinburgh Trams. I'm delighted to be leading it.

A fine epitaph really.
 

PaxVobiscum

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
2,410
Location
Glasgow
Rent-a-claim have discovered the trams:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-30951833

A lawyer is taking City of Edinburgh Council to court on behalf of 60 clients who claim they have fallen off their bikes due to tram tracks.

Stewart White, of Thompsons Solicitors Scotland, said the council was responsible for injuries his clients had sustained while riding.

The injuries include broken jaws, cheek bones and collarbones as well as a broken foot from a bus driving over it.

He has urged cyclists to report falls to the council.

Mr White told the BBC Scotland news website: "There is massive under-reporting from cyclists who are falling off their bikes as a result of hitting tram tracks.

"Even if a cyclist is uninjured I would urge them to report the fall to the council so we can keep pressure on the council.

"Cyclists are not being considered as the most vulnerable road user, it's really frightening stuff."

He added that those claiming for cycling accidents included a senior police officer, a firefighter, a teacher, a professor, two doctors, a golf professional and an advocate.

The first test case is due to be heard at the Court of Session by November.

Mr White believes the design of tram lines and warning signs amounts to negligence by city transport authorities.

I remember cycling without incident on streets with tramlines and wet cobbles, though I can also remember an incident involving a cyclist falling off his bike in front of my father's car when his wheel was caught in the railway tracks running along the street near Stobcross. The cyclist was unhurt and blamed himself for being careless.
 
Last edited:

kylemore

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,047
We'll never know. But in the context of what the city was 'told', i.e. the trams will pull down the buses, only bus passengers will be forced to use them, etc, the figures are highly significant.

Certainly a far cry from the disaster many try to claim.

Oh I think I know a disaster when I see one:)

If it had cost say £200m and had had no effect on Edinburgh's finances then it would have been merely disappointing, serving no real need and by now obviously suffering very low usage (I don't care what the statistics say!), however this project is having a disastrous effect on Edinburgh Council's finances.

It's only hope is extension to Leith - but who's gonna pay for that? The Government? But hang on a minute havn't they already paid for a Tramline to Leith?
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,304
Oh I think I know a disaster when I see one:)

If it had cost say £200m and had had no effect on Edinburgh's finances then it would have been merely disappointing, serving no real need and by now obviously suffering very low usage (I don't care what the statistics say!), however this project is having a disastrous effect on Edinburgh Council's finances.

It's only hope is extension to Leith - but who's gonna pay for that? The Government? But hang on a minute havn't they already paid for a Tramline to Leith?

If the tram scheme costs the council money to run, that cost eventually passes up to the Government. If spending £80m on a well-managed scheme to extend it to Leith would stem the losses forever, then in the long term it is more affordable than the alternative.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,602
Location
Nottingham
If the tram scheme costs the council money to run, that cost eventually passes up to the Government. If spending £80m on a well-managed scheme to extend it to Leith would stem the losses forever, then in the long term it is more affordable than the alternative.

But not only does that have to be true, but the people providing the money have to believe it is true. If I was one of those people then based on recent experience I'd be very skeptical indeed.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,088

Leki

Member
Joined
24 Dec 2014
Messages
31
And how many of those tram journeys were taken by those forced onto them by having the buses cut to manipulate the figures? It certainly would be a disaster without those who have had there choice removed.

Forced? Manipulated? We've already had complaints up thread about the trams not taking enough buses off the road. So which is it? Because it can't be both.

(As oldman says, one bus route was withdrawn.)

Incidentally, those passengers forced off the X12 and onto trams at the P&R doubled in number at Xmas over the previous year.

Reality: One limited stop bus service withdrawn and some minor alterations to others
Press release: The Lothian Buses network has been successfully recast to accommodate and integrate with tram leading to significant passenger growth

Have the service changes led to growth - almost certainly not.

The quote by the soon-to-be-ex-CEO is characteristic of the self-deluding hype:

A fine epitaph really.

Ok fine, so TfE released a hyped press release.

Still doesn't explain why the trams and a 6 million increase in passengers are a bad thing.

Oh I think I know a disaster when I see one:)

If it had cost say £200m and had had no effect on Edinburgh's finances then it would have been merely disappointing, serving no real need and by now obviously suffering very low usage (I don't care what the statistics say!), however this project is having a disastrous effect on Edinburgh Council's finances.

Well I'm sure you could make anything seem disappointing and disastrous if you're determined to ignore reality.

'I don't care what the statistics say' reads: 'I've decided I hate the trams and nothing will convince me otherwise'.

Which is exactly my point.
 

oldman

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
1,340
Ok fine, so TfE released a hyped press release.

A hyped press release complete with personal boasting by a CEO with a well-publicised dysfunctional relationship with his management team.

And not the first or last hyped TfE press release either. This one celebrates the video they issued to mark their first birthday. There are four quotes from punters - three praise Lothian Buses and one the reliable bus system. Nothing about TfE or trams. Sounds like the brand has some way to go :).

And as TfE has no income of its own (and no staff either), all this hype is paid for by the revenues of Lothian Buses.
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
10,544
And whilst on the subject of City Finances, Evening News is reporting a legal action by about 60 cyclists who have suffered injury in the tram tracks. Cant link as on my phone but this is likely to be big.
 

gswindale

Member
Joined
1 Jun 2010
Messages
1,019
And whilst on the subject of City Finances, Evening News is reporting a legal action by about 60 cyclists who have suffered injury in the tram tracks. Cant link as on my phone but this is likely to be big.
Do these cyclists not have eyes?

Maybe they should take more care over their riding.

I would hope any sane judge would throw the case out and give the idiots a nice fine for wasting his time!
 

Zoidberg

Established Member
Joined
27 Aug 2010
Messages
1,270
Location
West Midlands
... Cant link as on my phone but this is likely to be big.

Allow me to assist.

From http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...l-cyclists-to-sue-negligent-council-1-3669664

Dozens of cyclists who have suffered broken bones and ligament damage after slipping on tram tracks are set to sue the council.

Up to 60 bikers left with breaks, sprains and fractures after accidents are being represented by Thompsons Solicitors, with the first test case due to be heard at the Court of Session by November.

Lawyers believe that the design of tram lines and warning signs amount to negligence by city transport authorities.

Individual payouts of up to £10,000 are possible if claims are successful, leading to a potential bill for the council of more than £500,000.
 
Last edited:

ninja-lewis

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2012
Messages
97
Do these cyclists not have eyes?

Maybe they should take more care over their riding.

I would hope any sane judge would throw the case out and give the idiots a nice fine for wasting his time!
The shoddy design and layout brings the tram into direct conflict with cyclists, particularly around Haymarket.

This section is one of the worst: not only is the tram line in the cycle lane but cyclists are forced to cross the tram line at far less than the recommended 90 degree perpendicular angle. Ignoring the bike lane to safely cross the tram line then makes cyclists look erratic and brings them into conflict with other traffic.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80467000/png/_80467843_tram.png

They have a decent case demonstrating council negligence. The 60 cyclists involved are only a small portion of the overall falls caused by the tramline, many of which go unreported.
 

ScotGG

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2013
Messages
1,585
And whilst on the subject of City Finances, Evening News is reporting a legal action by about 60 cyclists who have suffered injury in the tram tracks. Cant link as on my phone but this is likely to be big.

Christ alive every other developed nation must be laughing at that. The UK's compensation culture is beyond idiotic.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,602
Location
Nottingham
I know a huge amount of work was done for the Metrolink extensions to make sure there were viable routes for cyclists - if they they chose not to use them that was their lookout. And Nottingham tram website now has guidance for cyclists on how to avoid the tramlines. So if Edinburgh haven't done likewise then they could be in big trouble. Not being familiar with the Edinburgh tram in any detail I'm not able to comment on whether the cycle provision is adequate.
 

kylemore

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,047

Well I'm sure you could make anything seem disappointing and disastrous if you're determined to ignore reality.

'I don't care what the statistics say' reads: 'I've decided I hate the trams and nothing will convince me otherwise'.

Which is exactly my point.


Please see previous posts for the fact that I LOVE TRAMS:D

THIS PROJECT is ANTI-TRAM inasmuch that it has set the cause of Light Rail in Scotland's cities back by decades.

The "Reality" is that Edinburgh's Finances are in deep crisis because of this monumentally mis-managed project.
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
10,544
Agree totally with this.

On the subject of Cyclists, the number of incidents has been very high and many pedestrians arnt happy iether. As to how good or not the provision is I would look to one of our fellow members in the shape of Dave Newcastle and also Yorkie, both keenyclists.
 

khib70

Member
Joined
29 Aug 2011
Messages
236
Location
Edinburgh
Please see previous posts for the fact that I LOVE TRAMS:D

THIS PROJECT is ANTI-TRAM inasmuch that it has set the cause of Light Rail in Scotland's cities back by decades.

The "Reality" is that Edinburgh's Finances are in deep crisis because of this monumentally mis-managed project.
This is the crucial point that many supporters of the Edinburgh tram fiasco consistently miss. The half-finished money pit that passes for a "network", its poor design and general unpopularity, has set back the cause of urban light rail in particular, and public transport in general. Because this is a rail forum, it doesn't follow that we have to bubble with enthusiasm at anything that runs on rails.

In addition, the shenanigans within the previously well run and highly successful Lothian Buses, can be traced back to an increasingly desperate local authority trying to use it as a cash cow for their sinking flagship.

And Blindtraveller is quite correct. The number of incidents involving injuries to cyclists is way more than can be reasonably expected, and very much down to the inept design of the tram "network", especially at the hopeless Haymarket interchange between street running and reserved track.

As for TfE's "integrated network", it doesn't even integrate with the only other bus company operating in the area, or with heavy rail. It's so integrated that the tram stops a considerable distance from both the airport terminal and the main railway station.

It's easy for enthusiasts to sit several hundred miles away and defend the indefensible. Those of us who were mugged to pay for this incompetent vanity project, and have to watch it trundling fresh air from nowhere to nowhere are less tolerant, and rightly so
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
I
This is the crucial point that many supporters of the Edinburgh tram fiasco consistently miss. The half-finished money pit that passes for a "network", its poor design and general unpopularity, has set back the cause of urban light rail in particular, and public transport in general. Because this is a rail forum, it doesn't follow that we have to bubble with enthusiasm at anything that runs on rails.

In addition, the shenanigans within the previously well run and highly successful Lothian Buses, can be traced back to an increasingly desperate local authority trying to use it as a cash cow for their sinking flagship.

And Blindtraveller is quite correct. The number of incidents involving injuries to cyclists is way more than can be reasonably expected, and very much down to the inept design of the tram "network", especially at the hopeless Haymarket interchange between street running and reserved track.

As for TfE's "integrated network", it doesn't even integrate with the only other bus company operating in the area, or with heavy rail. It's so integrated that the tram stops a considerable distance from both the airport terminal and the main railway station.

It's easy for enthusiasts to sit several hundred miles away and defend the indefensible. Those of us who were mugged to pay for this incompetent vanity project, and have to watch it trundling fresh air from nowhere to nowhere are less tolerant, and rightly so

I'm a huge tram enthusiast and sit many hundreds of miles from Edinburgh and have been utterly dismayed by the shenanigans in Edinburgh almost from the beginning. No wonder Alastair Darling, when he had the powers to approve tram projects, seemed so set against them! I was very angry with him at the time but now can see where he was coming from. It's no good for us pro-tram people to bury our heads in the sand and cover our ears, Edinburgh will set NEW tram projects back for years i.e. not talking about extensions in Manchester, Nottingham etc, even London, though I don't really think the will is there in the latter case any more.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,602
Location
Nottingham
I

I'm a huge tram enthusiast and sit many hundreds of miles from Edinburgh and have been utterly dismayed by the shenanigans in Edinburgh almost from the beginning. No wonder Alastair Darling, when he had the powers to approve tram projects, seemed so set against them! I was very angry with him at the time but now can see where he was coming from. It's no good for us pro-tram people to bury our heads in the sand and cover our ears, Edinburgh will set NEW tram projects back for years i.e. not talking about extensions in Manchester, Nottingham etc, even London, though I don't really think the will is there in the latter case any more.

I don't think it's quite that bad.

Future extensions in Manchester and Nottingham will be judged much more by the success of the tramways there, in timely completion, minimising disruption and running a reliable service that attracts forecast numbers of passengers. Manchester has done pretty well on these criteria, and had more extensions approved. The jury is still out in Nottingham with significant completion delays and more disruption than expected but at least the contractor carries the overspend. I don't know enough about Birmingham to comment.

In London there is still work going on for Crystal Palace and Sutton extensions, but it doesn't seem to have much sense of urgency. There are few places trams will work in London unless buses are cut back drastically on the routes concerned, and even more unlikely the powerful taxi lobby is faced down, curtailing their freedom to drive and pollute where they like.

The real effect of the Edinburgh situation will be seen in Edinburgh itself, but also in any other cities that might be thinking about light rail. None of the cities turned down by Darling looks like re-applying any time soon, and nowhere else has replaced them so the queue of proposals awaiting powers and funding around the turn of the century has vanished. Pretty much all serious UK light rail interest is now in extensions to existing networks.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top