Edinburgh Tram developments

[edwin_m]

I have a Sheffield "Bus and Tram Megarider" that is valid on Stagecoach buses and trams but not other bus operators. That would seem to fall foul of the same rules, or are there grandfather rights for ticket types that were already established before this decision?

There was a grandfather right, because NCT/NET were allowed to continue their arrangement until the concession transferred, but the new concession holder wasn't allowed to do anything similar.

If Stagecoach buses and Supertram are actually the same company then it may count as a single operator ticket. This wasn't the case in Nottingham because NCT was only one of a consortium of companies holding the concession.

 

[starrymarkb]

And this is why we need something like a Verkersverbund system in the UK

One ticket, interchangable with all operators (be they bus, metro tram or regional rail) will do a lot to make public transport more attractive to car users.

 

[po8crg]

One ticket, interchangable with all operators (be they bus, metro tram or regional rail) will do a lot to make public transport more attractive to car users.

"My Get Me There" will do this in Manchester eventually, just as Oystercard has done in London for years. It was like pulling teeth for TfGM to get all the operators signed up, though.

 

[mildertduck]

And this is why we need something like a Verkersverbund system in the UK

One ticket, interchangable with all operators (be they bus, metro tram or regional rail) will do a lot to make public transport more attractive to car users.

We almost have this in the North East! http://www.networkonetickets.co.uk/tickets/explorer-tickets ... apart from for some reason Northern opted out of it apart from the Newcastle - Sunderland leg

 

[90019]

And this is why we need something like a Verkersverbund system in the UK

One ticket, interchangable with all operators (be they bus, metro tram or regional rail) will do a lot to make public transport more attractive to car users.

We already have that around here.

 

[khib70]

We already have that around here.

Indeed we do, and it's a great concept. It is a tad expensive though, has a few restrictions, and can't be used to experience the wonders of the tram. I don't know anyone who uses one, but you're in a better position to know how well used the scheme is. Do you see a lot of them on the buses?

 

[PaulLothian]

Let us give it a month and then let one of our forum members based in Edinburgh make a posting of how it seems to be running at the start of July 2014.

Purely by chance, one month on, had my first opportunity to use the trams yesterday afternoon (not in the peak). Impressions of four journeys (including out to Ingliston Park and Ride)...

Usage - reasonable levels - most seats filled most of time (not that there are that many!)

Comfort - Seats not bad; heat levels ok when seated but when standing, there was a lot of hot air near ceiling - I stood behind driver for one trip, and was getting rather hot and sweaty! It was a warm day and drivers were opening all platform-side doors at stops. There appears to be passenger-operated door opening, which was not enabled. I guess on a cold winter day, you would not want to open all doors unless you had to!

Ride quality - reasonable, and certainly a smoother journey than I have previously managed on any Lothian bus (which are better-riding than the local average). I found the braking slightly annoying - a sudden deceleration from about 2 or 3 mph, which I take it has to do with a different braking system kicking in?

Still some issues with signalling on Princes Street, requiring one driver to have discussions with control, and sitting at Princes Street stop for a couple of minutes before crossing the Mound junction. From in the tram, I couldn't see situations where buses were being impeded in their travel along Princes Street, but suspect that emerging from side roads would have been more of a challenge.

Ticketing - easy enough to use. I used a day ticket, but several people seemed to be confused by the unusual zonal system (two zones - the Airport and all the rest!) and the huge discrepancy in costs if you want to travel the last half mile! One woman whose ticket didn't cover her to the airport elected to pay an additional Standard Fare (£10) to cover the extra travel, but to his credit, the Ticket Services Assistant did explain to her the alternative legitimate ways she could do it for less. All the staff I met were extremely helpful and chatty.

Route layout - main thought was that travel between the Gyle and the Airport could have had a couple of minutes chopped off it by better routing! The sharpest bend is, I think, at the west side of Gogarburn tram stop, but there are others in the open countryside!

 

[90019]

Indeed we do, and it's a great concept. It is a tad expensive though, has a few restrictions, and can't be used to experience the wonders of the tram. I don't know anyone who uses one, but you're in a better position to know how well used the scheme is. Do you see a lot of them on the buses?

It's odd, I used to see loads of them, but I've noticed a definite drop in the number I see recently, not sure when it happened though.
Nowadays, I'm lucky to see a couple of them in a day, whereas I'd see at least one per journey before.

I don't know if there's any reason behind it, or if it's just to do with the routes I'm driving or when I'm driving them.

 

[overthewater]

Lets be honest here, someone made alot of mistakes.

Back in 2011, when the project was restarting, the council should have extended the trams down Leith walk, on the eastern side. While on the western side, the trams should have terminated at the depot. This could have helped called the Airports bluff... and made the Airport pay for extending the line from Gogarburn - Aiport.

 

[dcsprior]

It's odd, I used to see loads of them, but I've noticed a definite drop in the number I see recently, not sure when it happened though.
Nowadays, I'm lucky to see a couple of them in a day, whereas I'd see at least one per journey before.

I don't know if there's any reason behind it, or if it's just to do with the routes I'm driving or when I'm driving them.

Could it be to do with the near-death of FirstBus in Edinburgh, coupled with the fact that Lothian have taken up some of this slack?

Around 10 years ago, my now fiancée lived in an area best served by First (regular First 86 vs a very infrequent Lothian 49) and worked in an area served only by Lothian - so she bought a OneTicket to cover the whole journey.

If she had to make the same journey today, then both parts of it could be easily made on Lothian (with a regular 33/49 service) so it wouldn't be worth the extra cost of a OneTicket.

 

[radamfi]

We already have that around here.

Sorry, but the One-Ticket is not really a proper Verkehrsverbund ticket system. It has to apply to single tickets, not just daily or longer. You should be able to pay the same single fare regardless of whether or not you have to change buses, or between buses and trams. That is the norm outside the UK and Ireland.

Scotland may have devolved transport, yet things are still remarkably like in England. Bus deregulation still exists. Scottish firms still buy cheap British made buses. They still follow the bizarre British system of paying a separate fare on each bus. Even in Ireland, which is of course an independent country, still copy the same mistakes from England, such as single fares not transferable between buses and buses/trams and buying the same cheap British buses.

 

[Liam]

Even in Ireland, which is of course an independent country, still copy the same mistakes from England, such as single fares not transferable between buses and buses/trams and buying the same cheap British buses.

Not in my experience. Bought a ticket at Sligo to Belfast, changing at Enniskillen, one ticket, two buses, two different operators.

Scottish firms still buy cheap British made buses.

These British buses, often built by Wrights in Ballymena, Northern Ireland, or Alexander Dennis in Falkirk, Scotland?

 

[radamfi]

Not in my experience. Bought a ticket at Sligo to Belfast, changing at Enniskillen, one ticket, two buses, two different operators.

That's an express coach service, not a local bus trip. You can change coaches in England and Scotland with one ticket.

These British buses, often built by Wrights in Ballymena, Northern Ireland, or Alexander Dennis in Falkirk, Scotland?

Both. Quality German makes such as Mercedes-Benz and MAN are rarely found in the UK and Ireland.

 

[Stan Drews]

Quality German makes such as Mercedes-Benz and MAN are rarely found in the UK and Ireland.

Stagecoach bought large quantities of MAN chassis, but no longer do so, as a result of their shocking reliability!!
Mercedes-Benz bus products are expensive, and they refuse to adapt their designs to suit UK operator requirements, so they are not a popular choice.

 

[Liam]

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Just because Scotland and Ireland are not England, we shouldn't be buying British buses?

If Mercedes buses are anything like their trucks, I'm glad there are so few of them over here. Scania or Volvo/Renault for me everyday.

 

[radamfi]

Stagecoach bought large quantities of MAN chassis, but no longer do so, as a result of their shocking reliability!!
Mercedes-Benz bus products are expensive, and they refuse to adapt their designs to suit UK operator requirements, so they are not a popular choice.

But Stagecoach used British bodywork for the MANs, so still cheap bodywork. What's wrong with the normal MAN Lion's City? It must be pretty reliable given its widespread use across Europe.

"Adapting to suit UK operator requirements" means "UK operators aren't prepared to pay for quality".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Just because Scotland and Ireland are not England, we shouldn't be buying British buses?

If Mercedes buses are anything like their trucks, I'm glad there are so few of them over here. Scania or Volvo/Renault for me everyday.

The point is that Scotland and Ireland have the opportunity to improve their transport due to not having deregulation imposed on them by the UK government, yet still choose to buy cheap buses and have a crazy English style fare system, and in the case of Scotland, still has deregulation.

 

[starrymarkb]

Stagecoach bought large quantities of MAN chassis, but no longer do so, as a result of their shocking reliability!!
Mercedes-Benz bus products are expensive, and they refuse to adapt their designs to suit UK operator requirements, so they are not a popular choice.

My understanding is the MAN chassis sold over here are adapted coach chassis, hence why they are so high at the back.

 

[overthewater]

If the seats are anything to go by, let the EU keep them....

 

[ModernRailways]

If Mercedes buses are anything like their trucks, I'm glad there are so few of them over here. Scania or Volvo/Renault for me everyday.

I've found the Citaros to be reliable. On my local bus route we used to have the Wright Eclipse and we've also had the Scania Omnicity. Neither gave the same reliability as the Citaros have done!

 

[MCR247]

Both. Quality German makes such as Mercedes-Benz and MAN are rarely found in the UK and Ireland.

Stagecoach bought large quantities of MAN chassis, but no longer do so, as a result of their shocking reliability!!
Mercedes-Benz bus products are expensive, and they refuse to adapt their designs to suit UK operator requirements, so they are not a popular choice.

Nottingham City Transport bought a fleet of 08 reg Optare Versas on a MAN chassis - however they've now all been replaced due to their awful reliability! This is shown by the fact that replacing them was considered priority over replacing buses more than 8 years older than the versas!

 

[starrymarkb]

Optare just bought industrial engines (normally used for Generators) from MB/MAN/Cummins, the chassis was made from the parts bin of various manufacturers. IIRC the Stagecoach Exeter Solos had uprated MB engines (from an Atego truck), Alison Gearbox and an MAN drive axle. The Mercedes engines seemed to be pretty reliable (IIRC we only had about 5 of the 30 in for Warranty work)

 

[Deerfold]

The point is that Scotland and Ireland have the opportunity to improve their transport due to not having deregulation imposed on them by the UK government, yet still choose to buy cheap buses and have a crazy English style fare system, and in the case of Scotland, still has deregulation.

Doesn't Scotland have exactly the same deregualtion as England (since 1986, excluding London)?

 

[radamfi]

Doesn't Scotland have exactly the same deregualtion as England (since 1986, excluding London)?

Yes, of course, but since devolution Scotland has had the ability to repeal it.

 

[kylemore]

We appear to digress but as one who has had the misfortune to drive Optares in service I feel that surely they must from the driver's and boarding passenger's point of view be the worst designed UK bus going, they are an ergonomic disaster area!
So much for British Design - surely the big groups must buy these heaps based purely on price? It's certainly not based on driver comfort or ease of loading.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, of course, but since devolution Scotland has had the ability to repeal it.

That's not quite the same as not having had deregulation imposed on them - and a rather bigger thing to change back (not that I think that would be a bad idea).

 

[Stan Drews]

But Stagecoach used British bodywork for the MANs, so still cheap bodywork. What's wrong with the normal MAN Lion's City? It must be pretty reliable given its widespread use across Europe.

"Adapting to suit UK operator requirements" means "UK operators aren't prepared to pay for quality".

The MAN reliability problems all relate to the oily parts underneath the bodywork, so nothing to do with the "cheap bodywork".

No, refusal to adapt to UK operator requirements, means exactly that - and has nothing to do with the level of quality that operators may require.

 

[radamfi]

The MAN reliability problems all relate to the oily parts underneath the bodywork, so nothing to do with the "cheap bodywork".

No, refusal to adapt to UK operator requirements, means exactly that - and has nothing to do with the level of quality that operators may require.

If MANs are so unreliable, why are there so many in Switzerland, given that the rich Swiss can afford the best?

 

[overthewater]

Left Hand drive ?

 

[mbonwick]

It's not so much that MAN have the basic idea wrong - it's more that their adaption of the design from LHD to RHD was fatally flawed.

E.G. designing the radiator and fan in such a way that it will hoover up roadside dirt, and sharing wiring looms with the UK trucks. (The unused connecters on the looms which would normally be connected to a trailer are a huge source of electrical/electronic problems)

 

[Techniquest]

We appear to digress but as one who has had the misfortune to drive Optares in service I feel that surely they must from the driver's and boarding passenger's point of view be the worst designed UK bus going, they are an ergonomic disaster area!
So much for British Design - surely the big groups must buy these heaps based purely on price? It's certainly not based on driver comfort or ease of loading.

I don't know which Optare buses you're driving, but the ones we have up my way seem to be decent enough for passenger loading, and the drivers seem happy enough with them.

Mind you, the boss who also drives almost daily on the longest shift (more or less 11 hours), got a Mercedes MCV thing. Proved to be a most reliable machine and he's happier with it than he was with his 05-plate Optare Tempo before he got his new one in March 2012. Although the new one is much less comfortable for passengers, especially those towards the back, with much less leg room than on the Tempo.

Both machines were on my commute to work every day so I can definitely comment with some sort of authority how reliable they are!