ECML Power Supply Upgrade

[Trainbike46]

I said it was not needed for the service specification that was expected at the time

When you say, "At the time", what time are you referring to? I was reading it as late 2020/2021, so after the situation of bimodes running diesel under the wires existed already? Am I misunderstanding?

EDIT for clarity: This is not intended as a criticism of you in any way, Bald Rick. I know you usually have a very good knowledge of what is happening, so hence my questions regarding when the descoping happened and whether the descoped section does in fact overlap with the section that has bimodes running diesel under the wires. It seems like an odd decision to descope power upgrades on a section of line where the OHLE isn't able to support current operations, so maybe I'm missing something?

Regarding Lumo and 10 car trains. Do you think it would be a good use of the limited railway capital budget to spend tens of millions on power upgrades specifically to enable a privately funded oprator to carry more passengers from London to Edinburgh?

Probably not tbh, but then again, on a railway as path-constrained as the ECML, running 5-car trains on busy routes (by any operator) is similarly a waste. In the situation where there is not really enough capacity to Edinburgh, it does not make sense to run 5-car trains on London-Edinburgh, no matter the operator.
As others have already pointed out, while maybe you wouldn't upgrade it just for Lumo, there is also the many other services limited by the current situation. If/when XC starts running bimodes, this will only become more of an issue.#

The project was halted mid-construction, so lots of the investment has already been spent just to create no benefit

Just to check, when exactly did this happen?

 

[Richard123]

When you say, "At the time", what time are you referring to? I was reading it as late 2020/2021, so after the situation of bimodes running diesel under the wires existed already? Am I misunderstanding?

EDIT for clarity: This is not intended as a criticism of you in any way, Bald Rick. I know you usually have a very good knowledge of what is happening, so hence my questions regarding when the descoping happened and whether the descoped section does in fact overlap with the section that has bimodes running diesel under the wires. It seems like an odd decision to descope power upgrades on a section of line where the OHLE isn't able to support current operations, so maybe I'm missing something?


Probably not tbh, but then again, on a railway as path-constrained as the ECML, running 5-car trains on busy routes (by any operator) is similarly a waste. In the situation where there is not really enough capacity to Edinburgh, it does not make sense to run 5-car trains on London-Edinburgh, no matter the operator.
As others have already pointed out, while maybe you wouldn't upgrade it just for Lumo, there is also the many other services limited by the current situation. If/when XC starts running bimodes, this will only become more of an issue.#


Just to check, when exactly did this happen?

To be fair to Bald Rick, at the time of cancellation the view from Milton Keynes was that ECML has far too many trains chasing each other to Edinburgh carrying fresh air, and that under GBR 2 trains an hour would be more than adequate.

They clearly didn't travel on ECML as shortage of demand isn't the problem

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Just to check, when exactly did this happen?

I don't know unfortunately, planning permission was granted in 2021, groundwork and some installation was happening still in late 2022 maybe?? All i can really do is keyword search this thread

 

[Trainbike46]

I don't know unfortunately, planning permission was granted in 2021, groundwork and some installation was happening still in late 2022 maybe?? All i can really do is keyword search this thread

Sometime between 2021 and the present day is precise enough, I'd say

 

[Narrowgauge725]

I could never and still don't understand why a franchise (TPE) has to run diesel and an open access (Lumo) was allowed to use pure electric, if Lumo wanted to run electric they should have contributed to the upgrade of the supply.

 

[swt_passenger]

I could never and still don't understand why a franchise (TPE) has to run diesel and an open access (Lumo) was allowed to use pure electric, if Lumo wanted to run electric they should have contributed to the upgrade of the supply.

When this came up for discussion about two years ago, I thought it was because LUMO bid for their paths well before TPE, and TPE north of Newcastle was never a firm DFT requirement. So effectively LUMO‘s pure electric stock was approved on a first come first served basis.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

When this came up for discussion about two years ago, I thought it was because LUMO bid for their paths well before TPE, and TPE north of Newcastle was never a firm DFT requirement. So effectively LUMO‘s pure electric stock was approved on a first come first served basis.

That is interesting and explains why thanks

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Why is there a feeder station at Ferme Park? What does it do, it's pretty much next door to Wood Green so how can they both feed at once?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Why is there a feeder station at Ferme Park? What does it do, it's pretty much next door to Wood Green so how can they both feed at once?

I recollect Wood Green was the original Feeder Stn installed as part of Great Northern Electrification in 1976 and Ferme Pk was added after to reinforce this section although im pretty sure it wasn't done at the time ECML was electrified beyond Hitchin. Originally CEGB were against connection at above 132kV, Elvanfoot (WCML) being an exception at 275kV, so these were both connected at Hornsey 132kV Grid Supply Point.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I recollect Wood Green was the original Feeder Stn installed as part of Great Northern Electrification in 1976 and Ferme Pk was added after to reinforce this section although im pretty sure it wasn't done at the time ECML was electrified beyond Hitchin. Originally CEGB were against connection at above 132kV, Elvanfoot (WCML) being an exception at 275kV, so these were both connected at Hornsey 132kV Grid Supply Point.

Okay so are Wood Green and Ferme Park are on the same phase so they can both supply simultaneously? Or is it that Ferme Park powers the route up to Wood Green neutral section - and then Wood Green FS feeds the Hertford Loop beyond Bowes Park neutral section. Having looked at Ferme Park and Wood Green on public UKPN documents each have their own 132/25 transformers off Hornsey grid.

There were a series of upgrade works done to the power supply in the years after the full opening in 1991, so maybe then? This was especially around Peterborough and then later in 2001 with Coreys Mill grid connection supplying Hitchin and Langley Jnc feeder stations with new mid points at Hertford North and Litllington.

 

[59CosG95]

I recollect Wood Green was the original Feeder Stn installed as part of Great Northern Electrification in 1976 and Ferme Pk was added after to reinforce this section although im pretty sure it wasn't done at the time ECML was electrified beyond Hitchin. Originally CEGB were against connection at above 132kV, Elvanfoot (WCML) being an exception at 275kV, so these were both connected at Hornsey 132kV Grid Supply Point.

Might Ferme Park have been added once the IC225s (first 90s, then 91s) came on stream? Not being around when it happened, I don't know whether Bounds Green Depot was wired from day dot.

Langley Jn FS was certainly added later, ISTR, and both it and Hitchin FS were fed from Wymondley. (Both were, of course, redundant when the supply was consolidated to Corey's Mill)

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Found it on the UKPN side finally! (Also note Railtrack Northumberland Park for the WAML, and Manor House LUL)

The fact they're on different 132kV lines from Tottenham suggests they run separately (not on the same phase). So I'll tentatively conclude Ferme Park is Kings Cross/Drayton Road to Wood Green OHNS - and Wood Green FS is normally Bowes Park OHNS to Hertford North MTPSC. I think the mainline northwards from Wood Green is Welwyn B?

 

[thecrofter]

Might Ferme Park have been added once the IC225s (first 90s, then 91s) came on stream? Not being around when it happened, I don't know whether Bounds Green Depot was wired from day dot.

Langley Jn FS was certainly added later, ISTR, and both it and Hitchin FS were fed from Wymondley. (Both were, of course, redundant when the supply was consolidated to Corey's Mill)

In tin-hut days, Bounds Green Depot used to be fed from Wood Green via a separate Circuit Breaker (WG-9) off of the North (of the 3) busbars it had. That single circuit became the test bed for the first Siemens Siprotec Protection relay. It now has its own independent supply from Ferme Park (FP250) as I'm sure you know.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

You can actually see FP250 from google streetview!

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Sounds like a problem with Marshall Meadows today. Since diesel trains are still passing the area (if they can get around disruption), I'm pretty certain the substation is the problem not the OLE.

 

[mcmad]

Vegetation shorting out the OLE, nothing to do with the substation.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Thought it might be interesting to do a side by side of the difference in arrangement before and after PSU. [edited 28/08][edited 07/09][edited 19/11][edited 25/11]

 

[thecrofter]

Nice little graphic but spotted a few corrections necessary.

1. Huntingdon was only ever a TSC not a mid point hence no Neutral Section, just a normal sectioning overlap.
2. Northern City Lines DC is correctly as drawn as a railway i.e. Drayton Park Station to Moorgate, but not strictly true for the feeding arrangements. Poole Street GSP feeds Queensland Road Substation at the northern end - admittedly at Drayton Park Station (adjacent to the Emirates Stadium) and at Finsbury Circus Substation in the bowels of Moorgate Station at the south end. Accessed via the extreme end of Platform 9 (IIRC) by the bricked up tunnel wall from the Moorgate tube disaster in 1975.
3. Drayton Park actually has two TSCs known as A & B. Drayton Park A sections the single line Up Cannonbury Down at Highbury Vale Junction via one Circuit Breaker (DP/3) and Isolation Transformer (T5). Drayton Park B has two Circuit Breakers to section the Up Moorgate via DP/1 and T1 with DP/2 - T2 on the Down Moorgate. Two further Isolation Transformers (T3 & T4) sit along those lines at the Up/Down Crossover just before Drayton Park Station. Visible on Google Maps by the Danny Fiszman Bridge.

Hope that helps.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Thank you that's very interesting!
1. In trying to track down my mistake I do, for some reason, have a copy of an SA from 2000 that claims a Huntingdon NS. But on closer inspection it seems to be another name for Holme, oops.

2. I've not heard of the names Queensland Road and Finsbury Circus before! There's a couple descriptions of the work done in the 1970s that say Drayton Park and Moorgate but they must have meant at those places. Admitedly, I've never tried to look into the power system on the line before BR. But someone else once told me the large brick building in the background of this picture was the Northern City Line's power station then later supply point from LUL's grid. Looking at the street names that must be the present 750V substation for the line. I'd previously thought that brick building in the foreground was the location since it's so close to the running lines and looks about the right vintage. then again, it could be Victoria Line equipment.

3. I had noticed the Isolating transformers around there but I didn't make note of it because then I'd have to include all the other intermediate TSCs and I don't actually know the location of most of those. I know there's one at Holloway and another Crews Hill on the Hertford Loop but other than that...

 

[thecrofter]

Yes Queensland Road Substation is the building on the left with the three circular windows in view - A "Cathedral" type substation that used to house mercury arc rectifiers back in the day. Last time I was there was before the Emirates was built so no idea how they access it now. I helped carry the then new SCADA outstation equipment into there off of Drayton Park Station in 2000/01 ish! As an aside, Poole Street TPH is something else to behold believe me.

As for Huntingdon, I'll see if I have any old Isolation Diagrams to see if I can shed any light on the NS. Sectional Appendices are invariably correct so may be my error?

Just checked - it was an Insulated overlap back in 1989!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thought it might be interesting to do a side by side of the difference in arrangement before and after PSU.
View attachment 186511View attachment 186512

Excellent overview. Will Welwyn get removed if they ever complete extending AT further South.

Pushing the diagram further North would be most welcome as well.

 

[m0ffy]

I do wonder why Bretton is fed from the NGED network, not UKPN, when it is fully in their Eastern Power Networks territory. A weird hold over from CEGB’s ownership of the 132 system?

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Yes Queensland Road Substation is the building on the left with the three circular windows in view - A "Cathedral" type substation that used to house mercury arc rectifiers back in the day. Last time I was there was before the Emirates was built so no idea how they access it now.

They've somehow squeezed some high end flats all the way down queensland rd (some of them will have a nice top down view of the s/s) with a blank treelined fence right at the susbtation

I helped carry the then new SCADA outstation equipment into there off of Drayton Park Station in 2000/01 ish!

sounds related to hornsey to york ecr move

As an aside, Poole Street TPH is something else to behold believe me.

Is it an original from before BR moved in?

As for Huntingdon, I'll see if I have any old Isolation Diagrams to see if I can shed any light on the NS. Sectional Appendices are invariably correct so may be my error?

Just checked - it was an Insulated overlap back in 1989!

Yep what I've now realised is that mileage 69.00 the same as Holme MPTSC so it's just an old naming confusion.

 

[Class 170101]

2. I've not heard of the names Queensland Road and Finsbury Circus before!

Finsbury Circus is near Moorgate Station. The green space was used to help build the Moorgate / Liverpool Street Crossrail Station complex

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I do wonder why Bretton is fed from the NGED network, not UKPN, when it is fully in their Eastern Power Networks territory. A weird hold over from CEGB’s ownership of the 132 system?

It is a strange situation but I reckon the isolation etc of the substation might still be controlled by the UKPN side. I'm managed to track down descriptions of the area from both sides.


In the P.W. Semmens book about the electrification project, he mentions a "Walpole Ring" which I think is what is going on here. Both East Mids (NGED) and EPN (UKPN) share lines out of Walpole 400/132kV. Guess it must be easier to split things up at the 132kV level than somewhere in the middle of the 33kV lines around peterborough

 

[thecrofter]

They've somehow squeezed some high end flats all the way down queensland rd (some of them will have a nice top down view of the s/s) with a blank treelined fence right at the susbtation

sounds related to hornsey to york ecr move

Is it an original from before BR moved in?

Yep what I've now realised is that mileage 69.00 the same as Holme MPTSC so it's just an old naming confusion.

Yes - the SCADA project ("Centralization of Control Rooms" as it was known) transferred the two ECML control rooms at Hornsey & Doncaster to York. At the time, the England / Scotland border control was also to be moved from Chathill to Marshsall Meadows but this was removed from the scope to save costs.

As for the Northern City Line (NCL), Poole Street AC Substation is effectively the remains of the former Power Station housed in what became the old Gainsborough Film Studios. I believe this has since been redeveloped into (luxury?) housing but the sub still remains within. The TPH is some many feet below at track level accessed via a very restricted shaft - not for claustrophobia sufferers. There is an access from track level in the tunnel that could be seen from a train if you know where to look and the lights are on!

Link to info on Gainsborough Studios.

Gainsborough Studios Hoxton

Poole Street is the site of Gainsborough film studios, named for the logo of Glennis Lorimer in Georgian costumes based on Gainsborough's portrait of Sarah Siddons. Though listed on film credits as “Gainsborough Studios, Islington”, Poole Street has always been in Hoxton. The studios were...

www.layersoflondon.org

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Yes - the SCADA project ("Centralization of Control Rooms" as it was known) transferred the two ECML control rooms at Hornsey & Doncaster to York. At the time, the England / Scotland border control was also to be moved from Chathill to Marshsall Meadows but this was removed from the scope to save costs.

I sometimes hear vague mentions of a Willesden ECR. Was extending Rugby to take over that area also part of railtrack's project?

As for the Northern City Line (NCL), Poole Street AC Substation is effectively the remains of the former Power Station housed in what became the old Gainsborough Film Studios. I believe this has since been redeveloped into (luxury?) housing but the sub still remains within. The TPH is some many feet below at track level accessed via a very restricted shaft - not for claustrophobia sufferers. There is an access from track level in the tunnel that could be seen from a train if you know where to look and the lights are on!

Link to info on Gainsborough Studios.

Gainsborough Studios Hoxton

Poole Street is the site of Gainsborough film studios, named for the logo of Glennis Lorimer in Georgian costumes based on Gainsborough's portrait of Sarah Siddons. Though listed on film credits as “Gainsborough Studios, Islington”, Poole Street has always been in Hoxton. The studios were...

www.layersoflondon.org

So that was NCL's power station until ~1920. LUL would have been producing 11-22kV AC at scale back then so perhaps they just incorporated into their own network at that point?

While I was googling you might be interested in this article written by someone who was commissioned to install Hornsey ECR's field telephone system in 1976 and in replacing the tunnel telephones on NCL some 30 years later: https://janfordsworld.blogspot.com/2018/01/northern-city-line.html. She has this picture of Queensland Road TSS!

 

[thecrofter]

I sometimes hear vague mentions of a Willesden ECR. Was extending Rugby to take over that area also part of railtrack's project?

So that was NCL's power station until ~1920. LUL would have been producing 11-22kV AC at scale back then so perhaps they just incorporated into their own network at that point?

While I was googling you might be interested in this article written by someone who was commissioned to install Hornsey ECR's field telephone system in 1976 and in replacing the tunnel telephones on NCL some 30 years later: https://janfordsworld.blogspot.com/2018/01/northern-city-line.html. She has this picture of Queensland Road TSS!

Just as I remember it! Interesting article - thank you.

Slightly off topic but yes, Willesden ECR was de-commissioned and control transferred to Rugby by the West Coast Route Modernization programme (WCRM) SCADA project. The old West Coast electro-mechanical ATE equipment installed with the original 1960's electrification (basically a post office style relay system) was replaced by Foxboro's electronic system - they were subsequently taken over by Westinghouse then latterly Schneider.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Slightly off topic but yes, Willesden ECR was de-commissioned and control transferred to Rugby by the West Coast Route Modernization programme (WCRM) SCADA project. The old West Coast electro-mechanical ATE equipment installed with the original 1960's electrification (basically a post office style relay system) was replaced by Foxboro's electronic system - they were subsequently taken over by Westinghouse then latterly Schneider.

Apparently Canterbury's electro-mechanical system of a similar vintage soldiered on until at least the 2010s according to these pictures taken of the operating floor and backend. Just out of interest, what substation was the original boundary between Willesden and Rugby?
====
And to get back to the railway line I'm meant to be talking about, here's my phase 2 illustrations. I have less firm information on what actually changed with phase 2 other than potteric carr/hambleton/benton so I'm probably missing something:
[edits: 28/08, 07/09, 27/12, 21/01]

 

[thecrofter]

Just out of interest, what substation was the original boundary between Willesden and Rugby?

Leighton Buzzard MPTSC IIRC.