-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
ECML Damaged OHL
- Thread starter Max
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Presumably though at the very least GC and Hull can divert then? Though I know in the past weekend diversions have seen them terminate at Cambridge with onward travel via FCC.
Zoidberg
Established Member
"Lines won't be fixed until at least mid-day" - just reported on BBC News channel.
Ive said it on other threads and I'll say it here, the ECML was done on the cheap with out dated tech (cross spans), longer gaps between masts etc etc.
If anyone sees a cross span go up on the new build for the GWML or MML, or even TP, time to weep.
If anyone sees a cross span go up on the new build for the GWML or MML, or even TP, time to weep.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
Well, last night's disruption was rather unfortunate timing for me - I'd left work sick at 3pm, and so ended up waiting for the best part of 2h30 in King's Cross before getting a train to Biggleswade.
I'll try to avoid rant mode - I don't think it's justified, for one thing. From the operations side, it was clear that everything was being done to get things going, and it was appreciated.
But I still take issue with FCC's communication with passengers. During the disruption, Twitter, the FCC website, the LDB feed and the station monitors were all giving different information. (EC seemed to manage much better.)
The information given at the station seemed to change quite rapidly. When the 1710 PBO was announced, it was a 4-car sat on p8 which everybody piled into. Then they announced it as BIW-only, so loads of people got off and others got on. Then they decided to couple a very welcome additional 8 cars on, so everybody had to get off. Then, once everybody was settled, it was changed to be fast to SNO. The "1744" was announced for p9, so everybody rushed there, only to find it was the 1744 to KLN, and then all the PBO passengers switched with the CBG/KLN passengers. By luck, the 1744 to PBO then went from p8 (a helpful driver informed us) so we managed to get a seat.
However, what being ill gave me the most appreciation of was the lack of crowd control. When the delayed 16:22 and 15:36 were announced, the crowd surge towards the platforms was quite scary. Bear in mind this is half-term just before the normal end of the peak, so there's a lot of young kids and older family members travelling. Certainly, I didn't make it to either train in time to get on board before it was full up. I wonder if there's any alternative to this (or even any way of doing airline-style 'pre-boarding' for those needing extra time, when severe disruption happens)?
Anyway, just some thoughts. As is generally the case with these disruptions, individual staff were very helpful and professional, but the information being fed down was all over the place. As an outsider to the rail industry (but insider in the transport industry), I wouldn't like to comment on how much you dedicate to operations vs customer relations during events like this, but it does seem that some of the crowd control and information dissemination procedures may be somewhat lacking.
I'll try to avoid rant mode - I don't think it's justified, for one thing. From the operations side, it was clear that everything was being done to get things going, and it was appreciated.
But I still take issue with FCC's communication with passengers. During the disruption, Twitter, the FCC website, the LDB feed and the station monitors were all giving different information. (EC seemed to manage much better.)
The information given at the station seemed to change quite rapidly. When the 1710 PBO was announced, it was a 4-car sat on p8 which everybody piled into. Then they announced it as BIW-only, so loads of people got off and others got on. Then they decided to couple a very welcome additional 8 cars on, so everybody had to get off. Then, once everybody was settled, it was changed to be fast to SNO. The "1744" was announced for p9, so everybody rushed there, only to find it was the 1744 to KLN, and then all the PBO passengers switched with the CBG/KLN passengers. By luck, the 1744 to PBO then went from p8 (a helpful driver informed us) so we managed to get a seat.
However, what being ill gave me the most appreciation of was the lack of crowd control. When the delayed 16:22 and 15:36 were announced, the crowd surge towards the platforms was quite scary. Bear in mind this is half-term just before the normal end of the peak, so there's a lot of young kids and older family members travelling. Certainly, I didn't make it to either train in time to get on board before it was full up. I wonder if there's any alternative to this (or even any way of doing airline-style 'pre-boarding' for those needing extra time, when severe disruption happens)?
Anyway, just some thoughts. As is generally the case with these disruptions, individual staff were very helpful and professional, but the information being fed down was all over the place. As an outsider to the rail industry (but insider in the transport industry), I wouldn't like to comment on how much you dedicate to operations vs customer relations during events like this, but it does seem that some of the crowd control and information dissemination procedures may be somewhat lacking.
Last edited:
Yes I was caught up in this. No problems until Peterborough, then was told we would be there for an unspecified amount of time. Eventually, we got in a taxi between Peterborough and Kings Cross, which was in a very poor state of repair and the doors wouldn't close properly at first.
Then at Kings Cross, they weren't prepared for our arrival and we had to run round to find an entrance that was open (this was at 0230 approx) to try and arrange an onward taxi to our LUL destination, which was done relatively quickly.
Although, we did get free refreshments, and as we were delayed on the onward journey it was pretty much a free day out!
Then at Kings Cross, they weren't prepared for our arrival and we had to run round to find an entrance that was open (this was at 0230 approx) to try and arrange an onward taxi to our LUL destination, which was done relatively quickly.
Although, we did get free refreshments, and as we were delayed on the onward journey it was pretty much a free day out!
Trog
Established Member
No, so far as I am aware it needs down grading to 1960's standards.
From what I have read when BR put up the OHL on the ECML they had to do it as cheaply as possible, so as to get the price down to an amount the government of the day would authorise. So everything is built right out at the maximum end of what the equipment is fit for, with no spare capacity kept in reserve.
The most quoted example of this is the use of headspan wires strung between two stanchions rather than portal frames, where there are more than two tracks to wire, and that these masts are all spread out as much as possible to reduce the number needed per mile.
The down side of this is that if damage to one road affects a headspan wire you tend to loose power to all lines. Whereas in portal frame equipment each lines equipment is more separate, and you are more likely to lose just a single line.
The further apart the masts are the more potential for sideways movement there is in the wires, and the more critical a problem at any single headspan becomes. As the adjacent sound headspans are too far away to help hold the damaged section in line. Should the weather or a fault move the wire far enough to one side that it comes off the end of a pan. The pan being sprung to press on the wire, can rise ending up caught between the lower contact and upper support wire, ripping out the dropper wires between them as it goes.
Last edited:
sprinterguy
Veteran Member
Caused by dragging brakes on the DVT that had been dragged in by the Kings Cross thunderbird. It was the 10:00 from Edinburgh that required the rescuing, incidentally.
YorkshireBear
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Jul 2010
- Messages
- 9,664
A guy who gave a presentation other day who was part of the project would disagree with you, he actually dispelled. This is the way the Germans do it. And everyone goes on about how great the German rail system is....
He went through every 'myth' you just listed and dispelled them.
YorkshireBear
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Jul 2010
- Messages
- 9,664
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgCPPeYmyKw
[youtube]XgCPPeYmyKw[/youtube]
For anyone interested her is a youtube video showing a pan bringing down the wires. This is one way it can happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes he did, and many of his points were brought up.
[youtube]XgCPPeYmyKw[/youtube]
For anyone interested her is a youtube video showing a pan bringing down the wires. This is one way it can happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I believe Old Timer did on this very forum somewhere. Lots of ECML/OHLE threads.
Yes he did, and many of his points were brought up.
The germans stopped using cross spans in 1973 for new build due to reasons of one line down, all down.
If you look at new build on DB, or on HS1 where there is more than 2 lines its done by outriggers or old style WCML.
And to note, I've been stuck in germany with ohle issues
Anyway, in model form
cross span http://www.sommerfeldt.de/data/SOM__161.JPG
outriggers
http://www.viessmann-modell.com/index.php?show=shop&cPath=32&lang=en&cat=c29_Catenary H0.html
If you look at new build on DB, or on HS1 where there is more than 2 lines its done by outriggers or old style WCML.
And to note, I've been stuck in germany with ohle issues
Anyway, in model form
cross span http://www.sommerfeldt.de/data/SOM__161.JPG
outriggers
http://www.viessmann-modell.com/index.php?show=shop&cPath=32&lang=en&cat=c29_Catenary H0.html
Last edited:
YorkshireRider
Member
Indeed, and although ive no idea on the technical side of things i would like to add that having worked for GNER, NXEC and EC over quite a few years now, i would estimate disruption due to overhead line damage is down at least 80% from when i first started working on the railway. Im not that convinced its any worse that the WCML now to be honest, but if someone has stats on delay minutes on both lines caused by OHLE damage im willing to be corrected on that point.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The WCML seems to suffer most from neutral section failures (Chris Gibb has a piece on this is Feb Modern Railways).
I'm not technical enough to know why, but they seem to be a weak point.
The WCML has some headspan wiring too, mostly on the route north of Weaver Jn (around places like Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Carlisle), but generally they are not high-speed sections.
Then there's the MML route south of Bedford and the GW out to Hayes, both with a large amount of headspan wiring.
Be interesting to see how they wire the 4-track GW west of Hayes.
Free refreshments served by the train driver himself. You can't beat that
I was in the clapped out freezing cold taxi with district with the window that couldn't be shut
. EC also arranged an onward taxi to my suburban London destination promptly once we tracked the staff down at the York Road entrance. When I left KGX at ~02:30 they were trying to find a taxi driver willing to take a passenger onwards to Southampton...Regretably all this can be laid at the foot of the privatised railway; Kings Cross is run by NR, and staffed by people from NR, also FCC and EC as the major TOCs.
With the best will in the world, and the best efforts of all concerned "on the ground", cohesion between the above bodies is near impossible with so many different masters to report to.
Incidentally, and from personal experience with similar OHL problems I would absolutely hate to still be working at Peterborough with this going on.
All the while this has been going on there will have been passengers arriving on trains from the east or the west expecting to get north or south and blissfully unaware of the problem. On top of that you have a very vocal and demanding set of London commuters to cater for. All with fairly limited staff numbers.
The staff at PBO have my sympathy just as much as the pax who have been severely inconvenienced.
Given the amount of problems, if money were no object, how quickly could the ECML's OHLE be upgraded to the same standard as the WCML if Network Rail worked flat out?
Which, of course, can have different definitions - so let's say, full-weekend possessions, as opposed to the "nuclear option" of 24/7 rolling possessions until it's done.
Which, of course, can have different definitions - so let's say, full-weekend possessions, as opposed to the "nuclear option" of 24/7 rolling possessions until it's done.
That is just not true. All that is needed is a pre-determined major incident plan, saying who is responsible and who does what. Just because several different bodies are involved does not mean it is impossible. If there is any difficulty, I suspect it is down to posturing.
Incidentally, Mrs O arrived at her desk in Whitehall at 12:30, having travelled via Cambridge. Not much later than the original estimates being handed out at Leeds at 07:00. Though the train south from Peterborough was packed, she says it was all handled very efficiently.
This is something that needs to be addressed in the next EC franchise. There should be a Milton Keynes style or Season Ticket restriction put in place at Peterborough and Stevenage.
Would it not be better to give the 5th EC path to FCC to run Peterborough sweepers with 12 car EMUs to cater for the spiralling commuter flows. How many North East and Scottish passengers find themselves standing or unable to board long distance IC services due to overcrowding caused by London commuters, especially on days like this?
Well, VT are reinstating a number of the peak MKC services, and have matched LM on off-peak prices. And there's already quite a price differential between FCC and EC on PBO-KGX (and most of the SVG services are the slower ones to NNG/YRK/LDS, which have relatively few space problems).
In the peaks, there's already 8- and 12-car services calling only at a subset of SVG, HIT, BIW, SNO and HUN, and they're pretty much at capacity already.
Indeed, it was very odd this morning on the 07:45(ish!) from Biggleswade going south from Platform 4..! Waiting there really showed up the difference in facilities between P1/2 and P3/4 (Cafe, Office for Platform Staff, 2 Waiting Rooms, Toilets, a Canopy on P1/2 and a Metal Shelter on P3/4)
Still, the large number of staff that were there were brilliant - all very helpful.
Currently looks like EC are stopping all services at SVG, HUN and PBO, and filling in with a diesel shuttle between KGX and PBO, stopping at the above.
However, looking at the LDBs, there's a fair few delays building up. Fingers crossed this doesn't snowball, as it sounds like the recovery plan has been rather decent.
And yes, it was rather odd going from p4 at Biggleswade this morning! I was in a bit of a rush, as I'd normally be headed for the 07:55, but was still not awake enough to figure out, Dougal-style, whether the train was small, or far away (from the path on the east side)...
However, looking at the LDBs, there's a fair few delays building up. Fingers crossed this doesn't snowball, as it sounds like the recovery plan has been rather decent.
And yes, it was rather odd going from p4 at Biggleswade this morning! I was in a bit of a rush, as I'd normally be headed for the 07:55, but was still not awake enough to figure out, Dougal-style, whether the train was small, or far away (from the path on the east side)...
Are you, or have you ever been, a railwayman who has worked on the ground amidst an incident like this?
It is not that simple as to say "all that is needed.......", every major incident is unique and will have consequences you cannot plan for in advance, to say otherwise is unwise, and if you read my post above again you will see I used the word "near" as a qualification before "impossible".
In most cases of severe disruption, the staff on the ground do a damn fine job under very difficult and fluid circumstances, not helped by having to work for different masters, whom all have different influences on what they expect and what they sanction to be done.
Zoidberg
Established Member
When are VT reinstating these peak stops?
- Status