ECML animals incident near Grantham 20-21/8

[styles]

There a posters that encourage the option of escaping on to the track in an emergency. I don't see what the risk is? Danger of being hit by a stationary train?

On most rolling stock, those same posters will try and portray it as a last resort. Many explicitly say something along the lines of, "It is safest to stay on the train where possible."

While I sympathise with those who chose to voluntarily detrain, I would not encourage it. There's a lot of dangers on the railways, even if your train has been stopped for ages. Ordinary passengers are not trained in what these hazards are and how to mitigate against them. Everything from oncoming trains to electrified rails to trip hazards.

 

[TUC]

1N33 21.03 Kings X - Newcastle arrived 04.52 (4h 24m late)

1D32 21.08 Kings X - Leeds arrived 04.52 (5h 24m late)

1N34 22.03 Kings X - Newcastle arrived 05.10 (3h 32m late)

Grantham - Peterborough is very much a known deer strike hotspot so no surprise it's happened there, but this instance in particular must have caused some substantial damage to the train.

That's whst I was thinking. A train I was on hit a dear in the same area but, aside from travelling slowly to the next station and then a visual check, it carried on as normal.

 

[azOOOOOma]

So can anyone explain to me what’s wrong with switching the GU on and limping to a place where they could just get out of the way? What’s the worst that could happen creeping along at 5mph? Is the risk of doing this greater or less than the train in question plus the half dozen or so stranded trains having one or more passengers self evacuating?

 

[bahnause]

The problem of self-evacuation is nothing new, nor is it surprising. I have found myself in the unpleasant situation of being stranded somewhere, both as a passenger and as a train driver.

We know that after an hour the situation becomes critical and the first signs appear that passengers have ‘had enough’. That is why our rule is that the evacuation must have begun after an hour. We can usually stick to this, but in rare cases we cannot.

That is why the first emergency services are called out after 10 minutes at the latest. We don’t take a gamble on ‘maybe a reset will help’ or ‘I reckon the problem will be sorted in 20 minutes’. We start with the evacuation plan. If our own emergency response team doesn’t have the capacity to intervene, then it’s simply the local fire brigade or another suitable organisation nearby.

On one occasion, following an accident involving a passenger on my train, I helped a few people off the train and guided them a short distance across a meadow to a footpath, from where they could comfortably reach the next station in 15 minutes. It was clear that it would take over an hour for the police to clear the train and for the evacuation train to arrive.

Does it make me furious when people leave the train of their own accord, despite the warnings? Yes. Am I angry with the passengers? Not so much. I’m more angry at our failure to provide a solution within a reasonable timeframe. To be honest: if we’ve already been standing there for two hours and nothing’s moved, a group of passengers on the tracks isn’t going to disrupt services any further. I can’t expect people to see me as a figure of authority if all I can communicate is ‘I don't know how long it's gonna take. Stay on the train because I’m telling you to, and you’ll die if you get off’. Not after multiple hours on the train.

 

[800001]

So can anyone explain to me what’s wrong with switching the GU on and limping to a place where they could just get out of the way? What’s the worst that could happen creeping along at 5mph? Is the risk of doing this greater or less than the train in question plus the half dozen or so stranded trains having one or more passengers self evacuating?

What damage had occurred to the train?

I'm going to hazard at a loss of air hence why the train stopped in the tunnel?

A driver would normally bring the train to a stop outside of a tunnel, rather than inside.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Loss in car 1 and 8. In the tunnel. Not sure of the specifics. It would be good to know more as it would be a good way for me to try and calm the customers and try help understanding, specifically to stop self evacuations or onboard hostilities. I think those making the decisions aren’t connected to the onboard experience. Several drivers last night were scratching their heads wondering what the plan was and why X, Y or Z weren’t being done.

I’m just glad it wasn’t 37degrees outside. Or full and standing as there were lots of cancellations yesterday due to a fatality. It was horrific. It could have been a lot worse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2026 ==

The problem of self-evacuation is nothing new, nor is it surprising. I have found myself in the unpleasant situation of being stranded somewhere, both as a passenger and as a train driver.

We know that after an hour the situation becomes critical and the first signs appear that passengers have ‘had enough’. That is why our rule is that the evacuation must have begun after an hour. We can usually stick to this, but in rare cases we cannot.

That is why the first emergency services are called out after 10 minutes at the latest. We don’t take a gamble on ‘maybe a reset will help’ or ‘I reckon the problem will be sorted in 20 minutes’. We start with the evacuation plan. If our own emergency response team doesn’t have the capacity to intervene, then it’s simply the local fire brigade or another suitable organisation nearby.

On one occasion, following an accident involving a passenger on my train, I helped a few people off the train and guided them a short distance across a meadow to a footpath, from where they could comfortably reach the next station in 15 minutes. It was clear that it would take over an hour for the police to clear the train and for the evacuation train to arrive.

Does it make me furious when people leave the train of their own accord, despite the warnings? Yes. Am I angry with the passengers? Not so much. I’m more angry at our failure to provide a solution within a reasonable timeframe. To be honest: if we’ve already been standing there for two hours and nothing’s moved, a group of passengers on the tracks isn’t going to disrupt services any further. I can’t expect people to see me as a figure of authority if all I can communicate is ‘I don't know how long it's gonna take. Stay on the train because I’m telling you to, and you’ll die if you get off’. Not after multiple hours on the train.

I like that idea. At our place after one hour you get a 330ml bottle of water and a tiny packet of corn snacks to keep you going as you’re sat there for 3/4 hours before you get to continue your long-haul train journey.

 

[800001]

Then the railway needs a credible plan to move passengers by rail within an acceptable timescale (two hours or so). Clearly - as demonstrated with this incident and numerous others - it is no longer capable of doing so. And you wonder why passengers self evacuate when faced with such utterly limp responses...

I didn't say it was acceptable, mearly saying what do you do when you reach access point.

 

[Falcon1200]

How is it unsafe if trains aren't moving? I would wait an hour max before detraining

It is unsafe because railway lines are not suitable for walking on, are fenced off, and at some stage trains will start moving again, if not moving already if adjoining lines remain open. Plus in some places an electrified third rail too.

a group of passengers on the tracks isn’t going to disrupt services any further.

Yes they most certainly are.

 

[AbbeyFlyer]

This is an interesting debate and I've enjoyed reading all points.
As an LNER commuter from Yorkshire to London, I can anecdotally say I've had four or five 200-min-plus delays this year and they are not pleasant things - people start to behave in ways they would never do normally and that sense of entrapmenr/fear/anger can quickly spread to other passengers.
Common sense doesn't really come into it at that point.

 

[azOOOOOma]

It doesn’t. But I’m not going to blame anyone who’s paid hundreds of pounds to be taken from A-B in a couple of hours being exposed to an 8 hour all nighter. Especially when they’ve got work in the morning. When the system isn’t making ‘normal’ decisions (in the minds of customers), I’m not going to judge anyone for acting how they do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2026 ==

In terms of brakes. I assume each axel has its own brake, and when air fails, and the failsafes apply the brake on that axel. Is it possible to isolate/override said brake in the event of a failure of the air on that axel or bogie and operating on the rest of the axels or bogies?

 

[a_c_skinner]

This discussion happens on here from time to time. The issue is how long it takes to rescue people and giving the people on the trains good information.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Discussions don’t stop people detraining, engaging in antisocial behaviour or threatening onboard teams with violence needs action, not discussion. We invented the modern day railway. It seems we are decades behind when it comes to resolving day to day issues.

 

[styles]

Discussions don’t stop people detraining, engaging in antisocial behaviour or threatening onboard teams with violence needs action, not discussion. We invented the modern day railway. It seems we are decades behind when it comes to resolving day to day issues.

Well, yes, but the same logic could be applied to recovering the service. We invented the modern railway, we should be able to clear a line from a broken down train in less than 3 hours.

 

[waterboo]

It's alright guys, LNER will hold another lessons learnt seminar, maybe even a training demonstration with all the managers present for a linkedin photo roll, accompanied by a futile post claiming that next time it will all be handled better.

 

[50035]

What I struggle to understand is why Hitachi maintained trains that have been involved in any form of mishap are required to not move until examined by a fitter who may have to travel several hours to get there when there is no visible damage to the train, no unexpected indications in the cab and the driver has brake release. It drives me insane.

 

[800001]

It's alright guys, LNER will hold another lessons learnt seminar, maybe even a training demonstration with all the managers present for a linkedin photo roll, accompanied by a futile post claiming that next time it will all be handled better.

The thing I remember is, NR always push for an evacuation to start being organised more or less as soon as an incident commences, where as LNER push back on it, relying on the train to get fixed and only when it has been ongoing for a while do they then decide to start to organise an evacuation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2026 ==

What I struggle to understand is why Hitachi maintained trains that have been involved in any form of mishap are required to not move until examined by a fitter who may have to travel several hours to get there when there is no visible damage to the train, no unexpected indications in the cab and the driver has brake release. It drives me insane.

Was that the case in this incident?

 

[50035]

That I don’t know, but I’ve attended a number of incidents in the last few years in the south west where it has been.

 

[Kentish RYS]

In terms of brakes. I assume each axel has its own brake, and when air fails, and the failsafes apply the brake on that axel. Is it possible to isolate/override said brake in the event of a failure of the air on that axel or bogie and operating on the rest of the axels or bogies?

It depends on what exactly is damaged, and the exact type of train.

The stuff that I know in detail is loco hauled and BR(S) MU Mark 1 and Early Mk2s so potentially different to modern stuff. The brakes can be isolated by bogie, but if the issue is the train pipe that means more trouble, unless you have enough trained people to operate brakes if train is effectively two for braking purposes (and requires a release to be achievable at both ends, either with compressors or an intact Main Res Pipe which if air system damage is the issue may not be achievable).

I don't know if Guards would be enough these days, they used to be a lot more involved from looking at old BR material, have a look at the DMU training videos on YouTube on what they used to be expected to do

 

[azOOOOOma]

In terms of getting on the tracks, the only training that would require me to get on the tracks (in a non-emergency situations) is a rotation test and nothing else. Technical knowledge is actually quite limited comes to think of it.

 

[skyhigh]

Loss in car 1 and 8.

Air leaks in car 1 and 8 meaning a loss of main air pressure on the whole train. There's no way you can move forward until that is resolved.

If a stranded train can be moved safely to a better location at a reduced speed, it will be.

What I struggle to understand is why Hitachi maintained trains that have been involved in any form of mishap are required to not move until examined by a fitter who may have to travel several hours to get there when there is no visible damage to the train, no unexpected indications in the cab and the driver has brake release. It drives me insane.

I don't believe this is true. It's not the case here anyway, as there wasn't brake release.

 

[bahnause]

It is unsafe because railway lines are not suitable for walking on, are fenced off, and at some stage trains will start moving again, if not moving already if adjoining lines remain open. Plus in some places an electrified third rail too.

Now, of course, I’m curious to hear the excuse as to why they can’t manage to evacuate passengers from a train within a reasonable time when there are other trains running alongside it.

 

[Kentish RYS]

In terms of getting on the tracks, the only training that would require me to get on the tracks (in a non-emergency situations) is a rotation test and nothing else. Technical knowledge is actually quite limited comes to think of it.

Assuming you are an modern Guard, that was about what I was expecting.

The below playlist* shows the BR 1st Gen Diesel Mechanical MU Driving and Fault Finding for drivers, but part 3 shows from about 15 mins in the Driver doing fault finding on Brakes (with a bit of help from the Guard) As it is Twin Pipe Vac it has different (less) isolation than air (instead uncoupling vac hoses and pulling the strings and the like) but there is all sorts of way to clear the line, though it does include having to get extra staff at times.

*of the same four videos twice-I found by searching but the videos are uploaded two channels so if it gets removed by one, there is still the others. It is also shown as many of the faults happening on one day to a pair of drivers in a occasionally dry humour sort of way!

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLW171qw49SBexFBWhVu9bV9taTBKlAmY7&si=c0i_fTcpyYgLGYQ4

Air leaks in car 1 and 8 meaning a loss of main air pressure on the whole train. There's no way you can move forward until that is resolved.

That does sound pretty terminal

 

[sharpener]

Air leaks in car 1 and 8 meaning a loss of main air pressure on the whole train. There's no way you can move forward until that is resolved.

I had to remind myself from p1 of this thread that the train in question hit a deer. Presumably with the front. What caused the air leak at the opposite end of the train?

 

[Kentish RYS]

I had to remind myself from p1 of this thread that the train in question hit a deer. Presumably with the front. What caused the air leak at the opposite end of the train?

My guess is it went under and damaged stuff on the way through. I know of an incident at Darlington in 1977 where a Deltic hauled express hit something and it closed (an older design) of brake pipe cock further down the train, causing a runaway and collision. Although not the rear in that case, it does show it is not just the front that gets damaged.

Railways archive link to 1977 Darlington accident

Accident at Darlington Bank Top on 16th February 1977 :: The Railways Archive

Archive of UK railways documents

www.railwaysarchive.co.uk

 

[Starmill]

Air leaks in car 1 and 8 meaning a loss of main air pressure on the whole train. There's no way you can move forward until that is resolved.

If a stranded train can be moved safely to a better location at a reduced speed, it will be.

I don't believe this is true. It's not the case here anyway, as there wasn't brake release.

There was another incident recently where a Voyager train was immobilised for hours and hours by hitting a minor obstacle, for exactly the same reason. I think on that occasion it was the foot of a plastic fence that had blown onto the tracks from a platform rather than a small part of a very unfortunate animal.

An inability to release the brakes is perhaps a slightly under-appreciated failure state. Most faults could be solved by the train crew just enough to enable a run to the next platform at 5mph, but if they can't get brake release then realistically they probably can't do anything at all until outside help arrives. Getting help to a train stuck somewhere like this is never going to be a quick process.

 

[Unber43]

Surely it wouldnt have been safe to let the train crew operate from 9pm to 5am the next morning?

 

[Starmill]

Surely it wouldnt have been safe to let the train crew operate from 9pm to 5am the next morning?

In general a relief crew is sent to big incidents, although obviously they cannot take over the train until they can physically get to it. Usually in emergency situations the existing crew will continue for up to 12 hours since they began, with appropriate alterations made to their following shift.

 

[Bikeman78]

Law and order is breaking down fast in the UK and people know that they can do pretty much as they want. I say this as I wish to avoid it however I can see a group self evacuating onto a line and being taken out. What would the enquiry say about a thunderbird just a few KM away, capable of towing the train were just sitting there doing nothing?

I think the Covid era was a turning point for a lot of people. Threats of ludicrous fines for previously legal activities. In reality, people quickly discovered that the chances of enforcement were close to zero. The same applies to most other offences. Then we discovered that the lawmakers weren't following their own rules. So why should we?

 

[yorkie]

Law and order is breaking down fast in the UK ...

You've said similar before, but do you have any evidence to back up your claims?

It is a common perception among most generations through the ages that crime is getting worse from one generation to the next; this perception persists when there is no evidence for it being true, or even when the reverse is true.

Take this from 23 May 1980:

VIOLENCE ON LONDON TRANSPORT (Hansard, 23 May 1980)

VIOLENCE ON LONDON TRANSPORT (Hansard, 23 May 1980)

api.parliament.uk

...it is now our city where people fear to ride on trains and buses late at night; it is our constituents, families and friends who are assaulted on our public transport...

...Punks, Teds and skinheads are increasingly a hazard for late-night travellers...

I suspect you will find that there are fewer instances of crime and other anti-social behaviour now, than there were then.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2026 ==

Then the railway needs a credible plan to move passengers by rail within an acceptable timescale (two hours or so). Clearly - as demonstrated with this incident and numerous others - it is no longer capable of doing so. And you wonder why passengers self evacuate when faced with such utterly limp responses...

Agreed. It should, but is incapable and - I think - not particularly willing to change it's ways.

 

[styles]

You've said similar before, but do you have any evidence to back up your claims?

It is a common perception among most generations through the ages that crime is getting worse from one generation to the next; this perception persists when there is no evidence for it being true, or even when the reverse is true.

Take this from 23 May 1980:

VIOLENCE ON LONDON TRANSPORT (Hansard, 23 May 1980)

VIOLENCE ON LONDON TRANSPORT (Hansard, 23 May 1980)

api.parliament.uk

I suspect you will find that there are fewer instances of crime and other anti-social behaviour now, than there were then.

Indeed, and I think it's down to social media that the perception doesn't quite match reality.

Everybody's got a video camera in their pocket and a platform to upload the footage to the world in a matter of seconds.

Casualties from road traffic collisions are at an all time recorded low in absolute terms (let alone relative to the increase in vehicles and increase in miles driven!), but if you scroll YouTube shorts and watch dashcam videos you'd be forgiven for thinking that the roads are a wild west. The same I believe to be true of crime in general, including on trains.

There's always been bashers hanging out of windows with cans of lager, people starting fights, people setting off alarms for jokes, etc.

I find it's less now than when I was a child 20+ years ago, but you wouldn't believe that if the local Facebook group were representative of reality.