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ECML animals incident near Grantham 20-21/8

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Dewedin

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Currently stuck on 1D32 which has been stopped south of Grantham for over 3 hours now after 1D31 has apparently struck a deer and come to a halt in Stoke Tunnel, affecting several other services. At least one train in the area has had some passengers self-evacuating against instructions.

There seems to be an evac planned for the damaged train but still no timescales offered. On train staff are assisting our welfare as much as they can but our TM seems understandably as fed up as the rest of us by the lack of useful information being provided by the authorities.
 
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Dewedin

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Just left Grantham 4.5 hours late.

Update: now stopped near Bentley due to signal cable theft. Running 5 hours late.
 
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flymo

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A couple of the late night Kings Cross to Newcastle trains running 230 to 280 late. The 2103 from London due Newcastle 0505 instead of 0025; 2203 due Newcastle 0527 instead of 0134. Horrible night for everyone involved, staff and passengers, and the deer..
 

Banham7

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1N33 21.03 Kings X - Newcastle arrived 04.52 (4h 24m late)

1D32 21.08 Kings X - Leeds arrived 04.52 (5h 24m late)

1N34 22.03 Kings X - Newcastle arrived 05.10 (3h 32m late)

Grantham - Peterborough is very much a known deer strike hotspot so no surprise it's happened there, but this instance in particular must have caused some substantial damage to the train.

Disruption causing essentially overnight budget sleeper services feel like they are happening a lot more this year compared to other years as well.
 

azOOOOOma

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Currently stuck on 1D32 which has been stopped south of Grantham for over 3 hours now after 1D31 has apparently struck a deer and come to a halt in Stoke Tunnel, affecting several other services. At least one train in the area has had some passengers self-evacuating against instructions.

There seems to be an evac planned for the damaged train but still no timescales offered. On train staff are assisting our welfare as much as they can but our TM seems understandably as fed up as the rest of us by the lack of useful information being provided by the authorities.

To be honest, I don’t blame anyone for self evacuating. I appreciate there are many factors that come into play, but its difficult to explain to someone that the plan is to hold your train for two hours (in addition to the three hours you’ve already sat) whilst the broken train does a train to train evacuation and why you and several other trains will just have to wait.

It’s tricky then explaining to customers why your train can’t just get by and out of the way before the evacuation and why it’s a good idea to sit for five hours total Before you then continue the two hours it takes to get your final destinations and that your hideously uncomfortable Azuma seat is your bed for the night…
 

Horizon22

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To be honest, I don’t blame anyone for self evacuating. I appreciate there are many factors that come into play, but its difficult to explain to someone that the plan is to hold your train for two hours (in addition to the three hours you’ve already sat) whilst the broken train does a train to train evacuation and why you and several other trains will just have to wait.

The main issue is that you'd be self-evacuating to god knows where - a tunnel presumably - in the middle of the night, probably not near any road access and with no extra support. If you were in an urban area I might understand slightly more, but in this instance trying to self-evacuate won't actually speed anything up and actually causes a lot more issues for both you as an individual and everyone else.

It's a uncomfortable and deeply frustrating situation to be in, but sometimes the only alternative is to wait. The main thing is encouraging NR and TOCs to recognise stranded trains early and make concrete plans for evacuating passengers which doesn't take multiple hours. Obviously towards midnight and in rural areas is much more logistically difficult
 

mikeg

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I personally do blame people for self evacuating as they are not only putting their own safety in grave danger but causing huge amounts of disruption for others. I don’t see why they aren’t prosecuted. If you can be prosecuted for accidentally having the wrong ticket, you can and should be prosecuted for trespassing on the railway, or misuse of emergency equipment contrary to the bye laws, both of which incur far more cost than accidentally having the wrong ticket.
 

azOOOOOma

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I personally do blame people for self evacuating as they are not only putting their own safety in grave danger but causing huge amounts of disruption for others. I don’t see why they aren’t prosecuted. If you can be prosecuted for accidentally having the wrong ticket, you can and should be prosecuted for trespassing on the railway, or misuse of emergency equipment contrary to the bye laws, both of which incur far more cost than accidentally having the wrong ticket.

But what if someone has a panic attack, claustrophobia or mental health issues, are we going to prosecute them?

If they are sat for hours with no movement, no meaningful updates and no trains moving around them, then I can see the desire, especially for those who we’re travelling to Grantham just a few miles away.

What if there are cultural issues where it may be more accepted in other cultures to walk on tracks?

I’m not saying I condone it, but I certainly understand the desire to self evacuate.
 

800001

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The main issue is that you'd be self-evacuating to god knows where - a tunnel presumably - in the middle of the night, probably not near any road access and with no extra support. If you were in an urban area I might understand slightly more, but in this instance trying to self-evacuate won't actually speed anything up and actually causes a lot more issues for both you as an individual and everyone else.

It's an uncomfortable and deeply frustrating situation to be in, but sometimes the only alternative is to wait. The main thing is encouraging NR and TOCs to recognise stranded trains early and make concrete plans for evacuating passengers which doesn't take multiple hours. Obviously towards midnight and in rural areas is much more logistically difficult
The other issue here will be a Hitachi fitter is normally needed at the scene, now during the day and up to early evening they will travel north or south from Kings Cross or Doncaster to the stricken train, at that time of night was there a train south from Doncaster to get a fitter there? Or did they have to travel by road, I would hazard a guess the main part of the large delay would be the time taken to get the fitter to the train.
 
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The one or two recent situations I have been in (yes, it seems the prevalence of these large scale incidents has increased) in which trains have been stuck at remote station platforms following incidents, it's been quite noticeable that people just pull out their phones and dial-up an Uber. Successfully, even some way from the nearest large town! So I can quite see people thinking they can just vault over the fencing across a field or two and then get rescued more easily than 'the railway' can sort out the problem.
 

Harratt4

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But what if someone has a panic attack, claustrophobia or mental health issues, are we going to prosecute them?

If they are sat for hours with no movement, no meaningful updates and no trains moving around them, then I can see the desire, especially for those who we’re travelling to Grantham just a few miles away.

What if there are cultural issues where it may be more accepted in other cultures to walk on tracks?

I’m not saying I condone it, but I certainly understand the desire to self evacuate.
If you have capacity to take a train unescorted, you have capacity to know that self-evacuating from a train is a dangerous, unwise, and probably illegal thing to do. "I was in the shop and the goods were in my hand, but I just had a sudden attack of claustrophobia and just had to evacuate the shop, I was too claustrophobic to pay, officer"

Cultural issues is a misnomer in the same way that in some cultures it is more accepted to carry a firearm, but if you are in the UK you are required to follow UK law or face the consequences.

Yes, we are going to prosecute them.

I desire a a Rolex, very much, there are lots of them in the store and I am sure others understand my desire. Doesn't mean I shouldn't get prosecuted for taking one. "But I really wanted it" isn't a defence in law.
 

Twingo37175

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The other issue here will be a Hitachi fitter is normally needed at the scene, now during the day and up to early evening they will travel north or south from Kings Cross or Doncaster to the stricken train, at that time of night was there a train south from Doncaster to get a fitter there? Or did they have to travel by road, I would hazard a guess the main part of the large delay would be the time taken to get the fitter to the train.
Just looked, 1E30 was held in Doncaster around 20 minutes last night at 2330. Maybe coincidence given the stack of southbound trains at Grantham then or awaiting said fitter.
Feel like I swerved a bullet as was on 1940 out of London, to which we were only 30 minutes late though the 1930 activating a hot axle box detector at Stevenage. Thankfully 30.5 minutes so delay repay valid.
 

iamraymond

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I personally do blame people for self evacuating as they are not only putting their own safety in grave danger but causing huge amounts of disruption for others. I don’t see why they aren’t prosecuted. If you can be prosecuted for accidentally having the wrong ticket, you can and should be prosecuted for trespassing on the railway, or misuse of emergency equipment contrary to the bye laws, both of which incur far more cost than accidentally having the wrong ticket.
How is it unsafe if trains aren't moving? I would wait an hour max before detraining
 

hwl

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One thought: Public faith in official advice/policies to "wait in place" in many circumstances may have been damaged by how it didn't work at Grenfell Tower, so are people more likely to make their own onward travel arrangements when nothing appears to happen for several hours?
 

snookertam

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But what if someone has a panic attack, claustrophobia or mental health issues, are we going to prosecute them?

If they are sat for hours with no movement, no meaningful updates and no trains moving around them, then I can see the desire, especially for those who we’re travelling to Grantham just a few miles away.

What if there are cultural issues where it may be more accepted in other cultures to walk on tracks?

I’m not saying I condone it, but I certainly understand the desire to self evacuate.
Doesn’t matter how serious a panic attack or similar episode someone has, forcing the doors of a train against the instructions of a traincrew is an incredibly selfish act which puts others at risk. It should be a criminal offence.
 

Peter0124

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Disruption causing essentially overnight budget sleeper services feel like they are happening a lot more this year compared to other years as well.
Atleast LNER are better than Avanti in not cancelling the service halfway through!
 

Skiddaw

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One thought: Public faith in official advice/policies to "wait in place" in many circumstances may have been damaged by how it didn't work at Grenfell Tower, so are people more likely to make their own onward travel arrangements when nothing appears to happen for several hours?
That's a valid point I think.

I'd certainly be tempted to self-evacuate if I was within shouting distance of home. Whether I actually would or not I don't know but I'd be tempted if the circumstances warranted it.
 

styles

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One thought: Public faith in official advice/policies to "wait in place" in many circumstances may have been damaged by how it didn't work at Grenfell Tower, so are people more likely to make their own onward travel arrangements when nothing appears to happen for several hours?
I think in general the public has ever-degrading respect for authority. It doesn't help when you have things like Partygate where we're all told to stay at home and avoid socialising while the rulemakers are boozing it up with suitcases of wine. Then you get the government misusing the emergency alert system to give general advice, supermarkets using facial recognition technology which then false positives people, all the way back to things like the Hillsborough disaster.

It's unsurprising that in these weather conditions people take matters into their own hands after being stuck on a stuffy stationary train for 3 hours.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Doesn’t matter how serious a panic attack or similar episode someone has, forcing the doors of a train against the instructions of a traincrew is an incredibly selfish act which puts others at risk. It should be a criminal offence.
It is covered by the bylaws, but the operator is unlikely to pursue it given the media coverage of such proceedings will inevitably focus on the fact that people were stuck on the train for 3 hours. A large proportion of the general public would support opening the door and/or self-evacuating, rightly or wrongly.
 

ValleyLines142

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But what if someone has a panic attack, claustrophobia or mental health issues, are we going to prosecute them?

If they are sat for hours with no movement, no meaningful updates and no trains moving around them, then I can see the desire, especially for those who we’re travelling to Grantham just a few miles away.

What if there are cultural issues where it may be more accepted in other cultures to walk on tracks?

I’m not saying I condone it, but I certainly understand the desire to self evacuate.
Fully agree.
 

azOOOOOma

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Doesn’t matter how serious a panic attack or similar episode someone has, forcing the doors of a train against the instructions of a traincrew is an incredibly selfish act which puts others at risk. It should be a criminal offence.

Passengers don’t listen to our requests not to smoke, vape, play music full volume, block exits, fill wheelchair spaces with bags, not swear, not fight. Therefore it’s to be expected that they won’t listen to our requests not to de-train.

I had a gentleman who kept threatening to self evacuate and watched him on the camera figuring out how to open the door so shouted down the PA to him to stay onboard, there’s a danger of severe injury or death. I was met at the platform on arrival and had some drunken railway worker scream at me for using the word ‘death‘ on the railways as it can be triggering. In the politest way possible I told him where to go, explaining that my job is to protect people’s safety, not people’s feelings.

Anyway, back on topic. If people want to self evacuate they will. A 5’2”, 8st4 train manager isn’t going to be able to physically stop someone. The law isn’t going to stop them. Which is why we need to either get things moving more quickly, better communications or better contingencies. Last night was a bad situation, the failed 225 on a match day was a very bad situation and as mentioned, impromptu sleeper trains seem to be more common.

Law and order is breaking down fast in the UK and people know that they can do pretty much as they want. I say this as I wish to avoid it however I can see a group self evacuating onto a line and being taken out. What would the enquiry say about a thunderbird just a few KM away, capable of towing the train were just sitting there doing nothing?

Onboard tensions also rise and there’s a threat of antisocial behaviour, fighting, attacking the crew etc etc.
 
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iamraymond

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Doesn’t matter how serious a panic attack or similar episode someone has, forcing the doors of a train against the instructions of a traincrew is an incredibly selfish act which puts others at risk. It should be a criminal offence.
There a posters that encourage the option of escaping on to the track in an emergency. I don't see what the risk is? Danger of being hit by a stationary train?
 

800001

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There a posters that encourage the option of escaping on to the track in an emergency. I don't see what the risk is? Danger of being hit by a stationary train?
How do you know a train is not running, or going to pass on an adjacent line?
Just because one or two trains are stopped does not mean all are.

Also if all trains are stopped; any train can start moving at any time.

If people self evacuate all they are doing is delaying trains even further while checks are made to see that the line is clear.
 

43096

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Anyway, back on topic. If people want to self evacuate they will. A 5’2”, 8st4 train manager isn’t going to be able to physically stop someone. The law isn’t going to stop them. Which is why we need to either get things moving more quickly, better communications or better contingencies.
This. Glad someone gets it!
 
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