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East-West Rail (EWR) countdown to entry into service
- Thread starter DavidGrain
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RailUK Forums
No, these are final paths and will not / cannot change.
Negative.
6 units, four for service. One 'spare' /maintenence / rescue. One off site heavy maintenence.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
So all two car then? That means you don't want to attract people from far and wide I guess, else there will be an overcrowding problem that'll make XC look pleasant. Thus bad connections may be a virtue - there'll easily be enough traffic purely for direct journeys, particularly once Bletchley starts being seen as a cheap place to live to commute to Oxford.
Sounds like RMT not happy with WHO is running the service rather than HOW it's run!?I think _this_ is that thread
The countdown isn't moving until it is resolved.
Tight connections at Bletchley are not needed considering how long you have to get from/to platforms.
The operator is irrelevant. Primarily they wont be happy that a “customer service assistant” type role won’t have the same leverage guards do when trains run under full guard operation.
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As mentioned, it is the How. The Who is largely irrelevent.
My understanding is they feel the driver should have no responsibility other than driving the train, or something similar.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They want a second safety critical person. They have agreed for that person to have no role operating the doors on e.g. Greater Anglia unless in degraded mode.
The key is that they are there, ostensibly for safety but in part to ensure leverage in case of a dispute.
Is there a risk, that without being safety trained, a person in an 'onboard supervisor" kind of role goes beyond the scope of their role in a disruption event and finds themselves in trouble as a result, even though they were doing the right thing that a safety trained employee could do within their role?
It often gets portrayed as a 'battle for the doors' but it must go further than that.
It often gets portrayed as a 'battle for the doors' but it must go further than that.
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They would have safety training appropriate to the job and would know what the limits of what they can do are. They wouldn't be safety critical, so in the event they they weren't available the train could still run.
I agree but also best to just get it off the ground - perfect enemy of good, and all that. But yes the pressure test will come, once the market is built.
You mentioned the LM Crewe but how does it connect with Avanti, e.g primarily thinking Oxford to Manchester / Liverpool journeys. Knowing Coventry/Birmingham is unlikely.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There are direct trains from XC from Oxford to Manchester. There is therefore no need to be bothered about this connection as most people prefer a direct train.
Maybe Liverpool but they also have the option of changing at Birmingham.
People won't generally know connections, they will do what a journey planner suggests, either picking the fastest or the cheapest depending on priorities.
Indeed but Greater Anglia GWR & SWR originally wanted the flexibility of an agreement similar to Southern permitting no second staff member under certain defined circumstances, but presumably compromised to end the strikes, but when opening a brand new railway with new staff surely you go for the most flexible option.
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Verulamius
Member
- Joined
- 30 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 327
Thameslink is DOO. So up to 12 car trains, crush loaded in the peak, Bedford/Cambridge to Brighton, Peterborough to Horsham.
This is true, but Oxford Parkway, Bicester and Winslow won't have direct trains to Manchester. And only Bicester of those has direct Birmingham trains. The comparison of the connection at MK or Oxford will be important.
That said, they have to run for a distance on the WCML, and the path is where the path is. There will be some good and bad connections, but there's no way around that.
DelW
Established Member
- Joined
- 15 Jan 2015
- Messages
- 5,934
Many passengers like to have a seat. Which is rarely available on XC between Oxford and Birmingham (or indeed on most of their network).
Personally my journey planning starts with, "if the only available train service is XC, then I'll drive". Every time I've been tempted to give XC another chance, the experience reinforces that principle.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm a serial XC avoider too, but if EWR is going to be all two-car for the foreseeable I think we will find that getting on at all is by no means guaranteed. This line is going to become seriously popular seriously quickly in my view once people realise how cheap housing at the Bletchley end is (compared to Oxford and surrounds), and once Winslow expands to become a second Bicester as it doubtless will.
In this country on the national network since 1983
London to Glasgow QS with Lumo (440miles), although that does have onboard staff. Peterboro’ - Horsham is the longest with only the driver on board.
Can be 2000
No
Yes
Peter Sarf
Established Member
+
Thanks for the answers....
So :-
1983 - so 43 years ago DOO started !. Last century.
Lumo London to Glasgow QS so most of the length of our island in a guard-less train.
If guards are so important then perhaps there should be one for every 100 passengers (irony)
Nothing I can add.
Ironic so lets amplify - the alternative to EWR is road transport. How many unnecessary deaths or injuries are likely to occur while this impasse drags on ?.
It is so sad.
DavidGrain
Established Member
- Joined
- 29 Dec 2017
- Messages
- 1,488
It is a few years since I read Adrian Shooter's book abut his time running Chiltern, but one point I do remember is that his policy was not to employ anyone as a guard.
They were Customer Care Assistants (I may have the title slightly wrong as it was several years ago), who were trained to work on the trains as required.
What I understood from this was that they could be on station duties some days and on other days working on the trains north of Banbury as those stations were not equipped for DOO.
In later days the introduction of the loco hauled trains required a second person on board.
They were Customer Care Assistants (I may have the title slightly wrong as it was several years ago), who were trained to work on the trains as required.
What I understood from this was that they could be on station duties some days and on other days working on the trains north of Banbury as those stations were not equipped for DOO.
In later days the introduction of the loco hauled trains required a second person on board.
WesternBiker
Member
My experience too, on that line.
Glad others are aligned on the importance of the WCML connection at MKC. Does someone know how the times measure up?
There is also the possibility of it acting as a de facto second tph from Oxford, depending on the timing, if the connecting journey is comparable time wise.
Avanti has far more space, a better reputation and certainly a better experience especially in first.
Folks from up north travelling to Bicester Village and to Oxford will see inbound demand too.
There is also the possibility of it acting as a de facto second tph from Oxford, depending on the timing, if the connecting journey is comparable time wise.
Avanti has far more space, a better reputation and certainly a better experience especially in first.
Folks from up north travelling to Bicester Village and to Oxford will see inbound demand too.
The EWR would arrive at the same time, or thereabouts, as the Avanti departing. There's no connection from one of the EWR services, so it would be a 30 minute connection to the Avanti.
Both journeys would be just under 3 hours (aprox), but as you say... there is the potential for a much comfier journey (once you leave Milton Keynes).
MKC is a 5 minute connection, right?
This suggests that the 1227 arrival connects into the 1235 LM to Euston (which also calls at Bletchley, so that would be the place to do that cottage) and the 1238 stopper to New St (also a Bletchley call, but might be a simpler change at MKC?).
The 1257 arrival connects to both of those 30 mins later and also the 1313 to Liverpool (16 minute connection) and 1318 to Crewe (18 minutes), the next Manchester is 1324 (27 min).
Departures to Oxford at 1218, 1248 & 1317 with arrivals 1207 & 1237 from Euston, 1204 & 1234 Birmingham Stopper, 1227 Liverpool, 1248 Crewe & 1255 Manchester.
Decent for London, tolerable for the others I'd say.
This suggests that the 1227 arrival connects into the 1235 LM to Euston (which also calls at Bletchley, so that would be the place to do that cottage) and the 1238 stopper to New St (also a Bletchley call, but might be a simpler change at MKC?).
The 1257 arrival connects to both of those 30 mins later and also the 1313 to Liverpool (16 minute connection) and 1318 to Crewe (18 minutes), the next Manchester is 1324 (27 min).
Departures to Oxford at 1218, 1248 & 1317 with arrivals 1207 & 1237 from Euston, 1204 & 1234 Birmingham Stopper, 1227 Liverpool, 1248 Crewe & 1255 Manchester.
Decent for London, tolerable for the others I'd say.
Unless I have missed something, there is no guarantee that through journeys from Oxford to West Coast destinations beyond Rugby will be valid via Winslow, so passengers might need to rebook. I guess that modern booking engines may get round this by splitting the fares.
The current 'AWC & Connections' advanced fares are priced on the basis of going via London.
According to BRTimes, yes.
I just dont see a good enough reason at this point in time to go that far put of the way for a journey towards london. (Intermediate points otherwise unavailable, certainly).
BR Times - Train Times & Station Platform Finder
Alternative journey planner featuring full schedule details including platforms and connection times, for every passenger train on the National Rail network.
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Would require analysis of the fares routing guide update(s).
You never know what might get slipped in. I don't imaging that they're in there yet, but I'm always happy to be mistaken on such areas.
Depends where you're starting from, it's the obvious route for Winslow. Less so from Bicester Village/ Oxford Parkway.
Agreed.
ex-Windslow, I'd give a 50 / 50 journy choice based on end to end time.
MKC should win hands down if going north and involving XC.
Yes, I did look first, and no updates for Oxford to Manchester Piccadilly at the current time.
For Bicester/ Oxford, where you're going might be significant, Euston is quite a way from Marylebone so some might choose to go to Euston if it's more convenient.
Using those times, you'd leave OXP at 1148 or BIT at 1157 and arrive Euston 1317, which is competitive with Chiltern journey times.