East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[HowardGWR]

Better the other way around with crossovers as it allows turnbacks, expensive though.

Doesn't encourage suicides either.

 

[mr_jrt]

Better the other way around with crossovers as it allows turnbacks, expensive though.

Indeed. I can appreciate why the other way around gets used though - having the fast lines on the outside means much more land take to maintain line speeds, compared to having the fast lines run straight through the middle.

I guess you just have to weight up the various factors - how many turnbacks are needed (cheap for slow in the middle, needs grade separation with slows on the outside), how many branches are there (the fast lines rarely branch, so do you want a single fast line flying over the branching slows or a single branching slow flying over the fasts at each branch), and how many stations there are - having the slows in the middle means you only need a single island platform, which means you only needs one set of facilities for both directions (and the required bridge is only half as long!) - you can also share things like lifts.

 

[cle]

The E/W route is very different from the Chiltern one. Regional rather than stopping/local - no shacks, small amount of stations.

Even if there are slower stations (Oxford Parkway, Winslow) - which longer distance trains might skip, frequencies won't be high enough to make it a problem.

Flight a fast, then a E/W and then a Marylebone out of Oxford, twice an hour. Done. You could still figure out freight and the Aylesbury service easily. That's not even that much. I'd hope for 3-4 tph from Oxford to Bletchley at least - before the various routes.

 

[Andyjs247]

The arrangement at the Oxford end is just a cheap bodge for not putting a loop in and I will bet cold hard cash on the Newton Longville loops being descoped and binned. Claydon will be the only loop along there.

Not ideal and a bodge I agree but I bet you'd have had a real job convincing the North Oxford Nimbies that you needed railway loops there! I think we need to be mindful of too much gold-plating sometimes. Presumably if loops at Newton Longville don't get built, they could be put in later fairly easily.

 

[EIKN]

They said this about Borders Rail Phase1.
Loops could be added later
Like electrification will happen before that .
Q, not familiar with this plan and too poorly to sift through every post .
Please can Somone provide in a nutshell what's proposed to what I thought before joining looked like a brand new or reopened double track line , nr Oxford to Marylebone.
Also is either electrified?.
Any hope of seeing cascaded HST sets if its not running all the way through? Seems a long route to put up with a commuter class E/DMU.

 

[67018]

Just to add, the Chiltern main line, being bi-directionally signalled between Princes Risborough and Aynho Junction, effectively has an overtaking facility in both directions between Bicester South Junction and Bicester North station. In the down direction a train can be looped in the station. In the Up direction the facility exists to loop a train between Bicester North and Bicester South Junction. There is at least one down train booked to be overtaken at Bicester North. Similarly I have seen up trains overtaken on several occasions - usually if a late running Mainline service is stuck behind the stopper. I doubt if anything is booked to be overtaken in the up direction though.

Up Chiltern trains can also be looped at High Wycombe using the crossovers there, which sometimes happens to sort trains out following late running.

 

[work-traveller]

I will bet cold hard cash on the Newton Longville loops being descoped and binned. Claydon will be the only loop along there.

You astute individual - let's remind everyone of that in a months time

 

[DarloRich]

I will bet cold hard cash on the Newton Longville loops being descoped and binned. Claydon will be the only loop along there.

Such cynicism. Such accuracy.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Up Chiltern trains can also be looped at High Wycombe using the crossovers there, which sometimes happens to sort trains out following late running.

Up trains can also be looped at Gerrards Cross, and Down trains can be looped in the Up platform at West Ruislip.

 

[cle]

If loops were installed back (or through running lines) - at all the mentioned stations, like Beaconsfield, HW, Ruislips, Denham - what might the potential be for both increased frequency and for journey time improvements?

How about electrification on the Chiltern route?

 

[The Planner]

Doesnt solve the Neasden Jn to Marylebone problem and even if you tried to throw loads down to OOC you would probably end up needing to do something at South Ruislip.

 

[Bald Rick]

If loops were installed back (or through running lines) - at all the mentioned stations, like Beaconsfield, HW, Ruislips, Denham - what might the potential be for both increased frequency and for journey time improvements?

How about electrification on the Chiltern route?

Journey time improvements - net worse, as the stoppers would take an age to get anywhere, and the fasts would gain very little (they have very little pathing time today).

Frequency - zero, because of the two track section Neasden - Marylebone.

Not such a good idea?

 

[67018]

Journey time improvements - net worse, as the stoppers would take an age to get anywhere, and the fasts would gain very little (they have very little pathing time today).

Frequency - zero, because of the two track section Neasden - Marylebone.

Not such a good idea?

I'd guess the main benefit would be to resilience as it would be easier to get fast trains to overtake slower ones without having to use the existing arrangements which block the line in the other direction (and sometimes lead to delays in one direction being transmitted to the other). But in reality they seem to be quite creative in sorting things out with the current infrastructure and the benefits would be marginal for the cost incurred.

I suspect it'll be the same on EWR - a bit more resilience and future-proofing is fine but if it pushes the cost up and up then it's less likely to happen at all.

 

[swt_passenger]

Please can Somone provide in a nutshell what's proposed to what I thought before joining looked like a brand new or reopened double track line , nr Oxford to Marylebone.

The bit that is already done was originally a stand alone Chiltern Railways project under the heading "Evergreen 3", and should be seen as an enabler or precursor to EWR. This earlier project (as modified to allow for EWR) provided for redoubling the existing single line from Oxford to Bicester Village (formerly Town), and building a new double track "west to south" connection to the existing Chiltern route near where the single track freight line crossed under the mainlines towards Bicester North. A new north Oxford Parkway station was also added, with the stations at Islip and Bicester being significantly upgraded not least for double tracking.

So one way of looking at this is that when EWR talk about connecting Oxford to somewhere such as Bletchley, Bedford or Milton Keynes they really only mean redoubling and re-opening from the existing railway junction just east of Bicester Village to Bletchley, via the WCML flyover. Lastly they also intend to bring the section of line north of Aylesbury Vale Parkway into passenger use - towards Bletchley.

 

[a good off]

The arrangement at the Oxford end is just a cheap bodge for not putting a loop in and I will bet cold hard cash on the Newton Longville loops being descoped and binned. Claydon will be the only loop along there.

Sadly, I think you’re going to be right. I hope they don’t underestimate the potential usefulness of the Oxford to Bletchley as a diversionary route for both XC and freight when things go wrong north of Oxford/Banbury. Descoping the project would limit this.

 

[cle]

Journey time improvements - net worse, as the stoppers would take an age to get anywhere, and the fasts would gain very little (they have very little pathing time today).

Frequency - zero, because of the two track section Neasden - Marylebone.

Not such a good idea?

Looking at the usage, the two Sudbury stations should either be up-served or closed. Having 100k users total within London for two stations is terrible, even with the service levels they have. That would help flighting in the two track section. The Amersham route is tricky though.

Wembley would be on loops, so I don't see why this couldn't be managed - and passing fast trains make savings throughout the route. The loops could be extended, and made dynamic/4 track sections - so there aren't the layovers which I think you're implying.

The whole Ruislip section and through Denham should have 4 tracks. I think beyond there, the stoppers drop off and the pattern gets easier. They use skip stopping very well already, so that could be enhanced too.

 

[Kingsbury Jn.]

Looking at the usage, the two Sudbury stations should either be up-served or closed. Having 100k users total within London for two stations is terrible, even with the service levels they have

Having two Piccadilly line stations nearby, with footfall of ~ 2 million each p.a. may have a lot to do with it.

 

[Class 170101]

Interestingly though the Piccadilly Stations face north / south and have long journey times to / from Central London. If Chiltern improved their service offering I am sure they would see more footfall.

 

[aylesbury]

Chiltern will provide a very adequate service plus they will be able to give us an excellent range of extra services on the WCML, MML and GWML so its a win win situation.

 

[RPM]

Interestingly though the Piccadilly Stations face north / south and have long journey times to / from Central London. If Chiltern improved their service offering I am sure they would see more footfall.

Chiltern did substantially improve the service at Sudbury Hill Harrow about a decade ago, but it remains lightly used.

 

[MatthewRead]

Chiltern did substantially improve the service at Sudbury Hill Harrow about a decade ago, but it remains lightly used.

Both those stations are only served in peak periods will they ever get a more regular service?

 

[jimm]

Since when has the service at the Sudbury stations been anything to do with East-West? Perhaps we can get back on topic now.

 

[MatthewRead]

Since when has the service at the Sudbury stations been anything to do with East-West? Perhaps we can get back on topic now.

Okay will discuss that in a different thread

 

[A0]

Since when has the service at the Sudbury stations been anything to do with East-West? Perhaps we can get back on topic now.

You mean you haven't heard about the Marylebone - Liverpool Street proposal running all stations to High Wycombe, then fast to Aylesbury, EWR to Bletchley across to Bedford, up to Corby reverse at Oakham onto Peterborough, thence Cambridge and Liverpool Street via Waltham Cross if going to Liverpool St and Theobalds Grove if from Liverpool St.

Allegedly going to be run using either Valenta engined 5 car HSTs or top'n'tail Class 73s with the ex-Thameslink 319s in the middle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You mean you haven't heard about the Marylebone - Liverpool Street proposal running all stations to High Wycombe, then fast to Aylesbury, EWR to Bletchley across to Bedford, up to Corby reverse at Oakham onto Peterborough, thence Cambridge and Liverpool Street via Waltham Cross if going to Liverpool St and Theobalds Grove if from Liverpool St.

Allegedly going to be run using either Valenta engined 5 car HSTs or top'n'tail Class 73s with the ex-Thameslink 319s in the middle.

Oh, come on, poor effort - where's the 442s?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You mean you haven't heard about the Marylebone - Liverpool Street proposal running all stations to High Wycombe, then fast to Aylesbury, EWR to Bletchley across to Bedford, up to Corby reverse at Oakham onto Peterborough, thence Cambridge and Liverpool Street via Waltham Cross if going to Liverpool St and Theobalds Grove if from Liverpool St.

I thought it was going to be run via Leicester, not Corby - to avoid having to reverse at Oakham?

 

[A0]

Oh, come on, poor effort - where's the 442s?

Allegedly spoken for - and 319s offer the added bonus of using the OHLE between Liverpool St and Ely

 

[absolutelymilk]

Can anyone point me to a source showing the estimated cost for the Western section or the Central section?

 

[DarloRich]

Can anyone point me to a source showing the estimated cost for the Western section or the Central section?

Think of a big number. Double it. Add some more. Then a smidge more.

 

[aylesbury]

The price will go up every month with inflation and then surprise surprise it will be only single track with loops!