East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[richieb1971]

Bow Brickhill works for me. If thats the best way to get passengers from the Vale line into MKC.

 

[richieb1971]

what are you on about? "climb the political ladder"? :roll:

Is it the idea you set out above? I am sure the moment you left the idea went in the special file marked "bin"! Any one able to read a map can see why your suggestion is bonkers. If you were serious about a park and ride type station you would suggest Ridgmont being as it is almost adjacent to junction 13 of the M1 and benefiting from vacant land for your carparks..

Although how you propose to attract people to the trains to make the journey to Milton Keynes escapes me as you, as set out a above, oppose direct services from the Marston Vale line to MK. Instead your suggestion is to offer a bus form Beltchley. How do you propose to attract people to the train when it is much quicker to drive from the site of your station to the centre of Milton Keynes?

BTW Why do you think your "own politician" was polite to you? It wasn't because you have a good idea.............

My idea had nothing to do with a parkway for MKC. It was more about my own area, hence why I said my "Own" politician.

As for pie in the sky ideas. I personally think raised platforms at Bletchley were a no go idea. Honestly, considering the location, a cement factory in the way and a whole of roads running underneath there. It doesn't seem doable to me. And the ideas I have said are much more easier to accomplish. Buy hey ho.. I'm not a surveyor.

 

[A0]

Bow Brickhill works for me. If thats the best way to get passengers from the Vale line into MKC.

Except it won't.

Because as Darlorich has rightly pointed out - to drive from the A5 roundabout to the centre of MK takes 10 mins - add 5 mins to park near the centre and you're looking at 15 mins.

Whereas - the Marston Vale line is looking at 8 mins currently (including a stop at Fenny Stratford) to get to Bletchley. It's 5 mins to get Bletchley to MKC and, by the way, you'd need a reversal at Bletchley - so add a couple of mins stopping time at Bletchley for that.

So frankly there is no time saving on offer - and instead there would be inconvenience of getting from MKC station to the Centre MK - which is at least a 10 min walk.

Can I suggest you actually explore the area and gain a bit of an understanding about its geography, what the traffic flows are etc etc instead of trying to turn EWR into a solution looking for a problem?

 

[deltic08]

Nobody - nobody - should be purchasing that £215 ticket. There are no evening peak restrictions in either direction, so the appropriate fare is a £107.50 Anytime Single combined with a £32.20 Off Peak Saver Half. Around £140 return.

Nobody-nobody should have to pay £140 to travel from Oxford to Manchester return by rail. In France that would be about £35 return and Italy even less without any restrictions. If I can't find a fare comparable to car travel then stuff rail.

 

[A0]

Nobody-nobody should have to pay £140 to travel from Oxford to Manchester return by rail. In France that would be about £35 return and Italy even less without any restrictions. If I can't find a fare comparable to car travel then stuff rail.

In which case £ 140 is highly competitive.

To give an example the AA route map shows Oxford - Manchester as 160 miles each way so 320 miles in total.

What Car quotes the running cost per mile of an 'average' family car - Ford Mondeo TDCi Zetec as 47p / mile.

That makes £ 150 before you've included parking - which in either central Manchester or central Oxford will be expensive.

 

[richieb1971]

Except it won't.

Because as Darlorich has rightly pointed out - to drive from the A5 roundabout to the centre of MK takes 10 mins - add 5 mins to park near the centre and you're looking at 15 mins.

Whereas - the Marston Vale line is looking at 8 mins currently (including a stop at Fenny Stratford) to get to Bletchley. It's 5 mins to get Bletchley to MKC and, by the way, you'd need a reversal at Bletchley - so add a couple of mins stopping time at Bletchley for that.

So frankly there is no time saving on offer - and instead there would be inconvenience of getting from MKC station to the Centre MK - which is at least a 10 min walk.

Can I suggest you actually explore the area and gain a bit of an understanding about its geography, what the traffic flows are etc etc instead of trying to turn EWR into a solution looking for a problem?

Don't know what your on about. A reversal?

Erm, the idea was that Bletchley was too congested to offer a road solution to get passengers from the Bletchley interchange station to MKC. My idea was that instead dropping passengers at Bletchley you drop them slightly further down the line where a shuttle bus could pick them up from the A5.

Why does there need to be ANY kind of reversal when the train just needs to stop where it doesn't now? Most of the stations on the Vale line don't support 100 people a year so losing those "Halts" is neither here or there. In fact the trains probably lose more on acceleration and braking than they do by profiteering from passengers.


Since your so perfectly educated in the geography, finances and what the EWR is trying to achieve perhaps you should get a job there. You would do well telling people what is impossible and non achievable and non affordable. You'd get paid a whole lot of money for achieving what exactly?

 

[A0]

Don't know what your on about. A reversal?

Erm, the idea was that Bletchley was too congested to offer a road solution to get passengers from the Bletchley interchange station to MKC. My idea was that instead dropping passengers at Bletchley you drop them slightly further down the line where a shuttle bus could pick them up from the A5.

Why does there need to be ANY kind of reversal when the train just needs to stop where it doesn't now? Most of the stations on the Vale line don't support 100 people a year so losing those "Halts" is neither here or there. In fact the trains probably lose more on acceleration and braking than they do by profiteering from passengers.

Deep breath. Rolls eyes.

A reversal is needed to get a train from the Marston Vale line to MKC.

If you look at the track / station layout, you'll see the Marston Vale line arrives at Bletchley station from the north-east. So to head to MKC you need to reverse or change train.

And if you're looking at adding a change, then you add more time and inconvenience into an already slower journey than people have today.

Since your so perfectly educated in the geography, finances and what the EWR is trying to achieve perhaps you should get a job there. You would do well telling people what is impossible and non achievable and non affordable. You'd get paid a whole lot of money for achieving what exactly?

I don't claim to be "perfectly educated" in anything - but FWIW, if I and others like Darlorich can point out the obvious holes in your argument without trying particularly hard, then your proposals would dissolve like snow in the sunshine given any proper scrutiny.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That makes £ 150 before you've included parking - which in either central Manchester or central Oxford will be expensive.

For one person. And that assumes you agree with that model being applied to every journey, which I don't. I see car ownership (purchase, depreciation, interest on the loan and fixed annual costs like servicing[1]) as more of a membership fee to the "club" of having 24 hour a day on-demand transport, then only the incremental costs directly associated with mileage (fuel plus a small contribution to tyre wear and brake linings, essentially) are associated to a journey. Which would make that journey nowhere near £150.

The "full cost per journey" model only makes any sense for an average car owner if you are considering the possibility of getting rid of your car.

[1] With very high mileages they can become mileage based, but for an average family car owner they are not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regard to P&R to/from MK, the Junction 14 setup is adequate for those coming from the M1, while if you wanted to add one, a new site near the Old Stratford roundabout (A5 southbound/A508) and a further one near Bottle Dump (A421 westbound, adding bus lanes to Standing Way) would be the sensible locations.

None of those are served by rail. So rail is not relevant in practice to P&R for MK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't ask me but that is why it is being built.

Says who?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That depends, assuming that sustainable urban drainage is used (and all new development must) then the discharge rate from the drainage system can not be higher than that of a green field. This can be achieved by many methods, but basically has to store the water on site.

The new-town bit of MK has a complex system of balancing lakes and channels which is well designed, effective and also attractive for the leisure facility it provides. MK to all intents and purposes doesn't flood - the only bits with flood risk are the older areas without this facility.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So unless you're proposing the closure of both of those stations and insertion of a new one at about a mid-point, you'd end up with 3 stations with about 1.5 miles separating them....... Which might, just might, work with the London Underground. On the Marston Vale line it's madness.

If I was going to add a station to that section, it'd be Browns Wood & Old Farm Park - but they are well served by bus already, and the bus is fast because of MK's fast roads. Bus lanes and overtakes if it hits traffic at any point on its route would be a better investment.

 

[zn1]

best way for the system to work is direct trains
oxford - MKC , Toc example FGW (swanbourne as the bletchley parkway)
Oxford - bedford - east midlands trains example Toc stopping ridgmont(for m1) a

BY - bedford all stations - london midland example TOC covers all intermediates

the interchange being fenny stratford, for the cross country jobs
2 per hour on the oxford line 1 per hour on the branch,

That way BY keeps the service fluid

freight work paths inserted as needed
the pathing is simple - it doesnt need all the complications you all on about, when it gets the string erected, services can be accelerated.

 

[zn1]

to add bletchley - MKC by the grid is a straightforward run, around 10 minutes on a good run, rush hour slower, getting out of BY is a pain thanks to the stadium and shopping complexes vile traffic light system...that adds time to the runs by car and bus.

a car run from Wolverton - MKC around 10 minutes rush hour it gets caught up at roundabouts.

in long term a rapid transit would work in MK...it was always blueprinted in but never implemented and would complement the buses...MK isnt built for 40 foot buses and DD's never was and roads adapted to cater for them - u have to look at the roads and drive them to understand this i have for years..MK is brilliant for the small vehicle, BIG buses etc are its enemy ...thats what my late father told me before he died, he didnt drive and always used public transport...he understood how the system worked in MK

 

[AndyW33]

Don't know what your on about. A reversal?

Erm, the idea was that Bletchley was too congested to offer a road solution to get passengers from the Bletchley interchange station to MKC. My idea was that instead dropping passengers at Bletchley you drop them slightly further down the line where a shuttle bus could pick them up from the A5.

Why does there need to be ANY kind of reversal when the train just needs to stop where it doesn't now? Most of the stations on the Vale line don't support 100 people a year so losing those "Halts" is neither here or there. In fact the trains probably lose more on acceleration and braking than they do by profiteering from passengers.

Are you in fact suggesting that passengers travelling from the Oxford direction should continue by train over the Bletchley flyover, onto the Marston Vale line, to an expanded or new build station somewhere in the Bow Brickhill area, and be taken by bus from there to Central Milton Keynes? It is far from clear in your post.

If this is what you meant, rather than a Park and Ride stop, the problem is that the design of Milton Keynes as a whole means that everything is deliberately dispersed. So shoppers want to go to the CMK shopping centre along with people wanting entertainment, employment opportunities are spread over the whole central area, people wanting to access the WCML train services want to go to MKC station, sports stadia are nearer the station but not actually at it, and so on. Really your bus (if that's what you meant) needs to do a circular tour of the whole central area, and that's going to slow it down considerably for the people whose stop is the last.

Coming on to the Marston Vale line, the only reason it still exists at all as a passenger line is those halts you deride. It certainly isn't on the basis of end to end traffic, which as other have said can get to and from its objectives easier by car or bus, and has been able to for decades.
Back in the line closures era, it wasn't possible to route a replacement bus service to all the settlements the halts serve. This was possible for the Bedford-Cambridge and Oxford-Bletchley parts of what would be EWR, and the passenger service there ceased (as have many of the replacement buses over the years). To this day there's a sizeable schools traffic along the Marston Vale route, though little else.
Did you actually mean to use the word profiteering? Unless you're suggesting that London Midland is charging fares that are way in excess of operating costs (or that the guards are making off with takings) nobody is profiteering, or even profiting, since it is generally accepted the passenger service runs at a significant loss, and has done since the 1950s.

 

[richieb1971]

Are you in fact suggesting that passengers travelling from the Oxford direction should continue by train over the Bletchley flyover, onto the Marston Vale line, to an expanded or new build station somewhere in the Bow Brickhill area, and be taken by bus from there to Central Milton Keynes? It is far from clear in your post.

If this is what you meant, rather than a Park and Ride stop, the problem is that the design of Milton Keynes as a whole means that everything is deliberately dispersed. So shoppers want to go to the CMK shopping centre along with people wanting entertainment, employment opportunities are spread over the whole central area, people wanting to access the WCML train services want to go to MKC station, sports stadia are nearer the station but not actually at it, and so on. Really your bus (if that's what you meant) needs to do a circular tour of the whole central area, and that's going to slow it down considerably for the people whose stop is the last.

Coming on to the Marston Vale line, the only reason it still exists at all as a passenger line is those halts you deride. It certainly isn't on the basis of end to end traffic, which as other have said can get to and from its objectives easier by car or bus, and has been able to for decades.
Back in the line closures era, it wasn't possible to route a replacement bus service to all the settlements the halts serve. This was possible for the Bedford-Cambridge and Oxford-Bletchley parts of what would be EWR, and the passenger service there ceased (as have many of the replacement buses over the years). To this day there's a sizeable schools traffic along the Marston Vale route, though little else.
Did you actually mean to use the word profiteering? Unless you're suggesting that London Midland is charging fares that are way in excess of operating costs (or that the guards are making off with takings) nobody is profiteering, or even profiting, since it is generally accepted the passenger service runs at a significant loss, and has done since the 1950s.

Welcome to the chatter.

Yes, what you described is what I am suggesting. I don't know what A0WEN is talking about but it seems he has misread what was typed or jumped in the middle somewhere.

The reason I suggested this is because a few pages back people were saying how bad Bletchley was for a interchange point. That MKC was not well positioned to serve everyone etc. So if you come in from the South of MKC you shuttle your way north through the hot spots until you get to MKC station.

In a nutshell that was I thought was a better solution.

 

[route:oxford]

In which case £ 140 is highly competitive.

To give an example the AA route map shows Oxford - Manchester as 160 miles each way so 320 miles in total.

What Car quotes the running cost per mile of an 'average' family car - Ford Mondeo TDCi Zetec as 47p / mile.

That makes £ 150 before you've included parking - which in either central Manchester or central Oxford will be expensive.

About £28 a day in central Oxford, more on a Saturday to discourage shoppers.

 

[RT4038]

.
Back in the line closures era, it wasn't possible to route a replacement bus service to all the settlements the halts serve. This was possible for the Bedford-Cambridge and Oxford-Bletchley parts of what would be EWR, and the passenger service there ceased (as have many of the replacement buses over the years)..

I do not think this is quite true - this line came within a cats whisker of being closed at least twice - the Minister of Transport consented to the closure on both occasions but the Traffic Commissioners refused to licence the replacement bus services due to unreliability of service in the area caused by chronic staff shortages. All of the communities served by the halts could be covered by the replacement bus service or by existing services in the area at that time. Granted that the services may not have actually passed every halt, but that was not judged necessary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

 

[richieb1971]

My Dad took me to Stewartby club on many occasions in the 70's and 80's and I remember seeing the notice board full of lobbying posters to keep the line open.

I am so happy that whomevers decision it was to keep it open succeeded. I hope the line gives the EWR many more years of service as well.

 

[DarloRich]

I wonder if the line stayed open due to the brick works and then the rubbish terminal. I assume it was just too much trouble to kill of the passenger service!

 

[richieb1971]

Back in the 80's there was a double headed class 25 London Brick train that ran every night about 20:00. Strangely it came from a far place and went to a far place, even though it went practically right through the biggest London Brick site in the country on its journey.

A bit off topic, but wouldn't mind learning more about that working.

 

[Trog]

The Watford area Civil Engineers spent ballast tip was also on the branch at an old brickworks, just on the Bletchley side of Millbrook station. That would have been another reason to keep the branch open for freight in BR days.

 

[DarloRich]

Back in the 80's there was a double headed class 25 London Brick train that ran every night about 20:00. Strangely it came from a far place and went to a far place, even though it went practically right through the biggest London Brick site in the country on its journey.

A bit off topic, but wouldn't mind learning more about that working.

did it not run to and from London?

 

[richieb1971]

Not only were the Class 25's fading fast but some of their long-standing traffic flows were also disappearing. Thus it was left for 25249 to handle the last London Brick Company 'Fletliner' on January 25, the 4F53 12.40 Stewartby - Garston brick train. Traffic formerly sent to Kings Cross, Trafford Park & Garston now moved by road.

I could only find the above quote online. But this states it came from Forders, which is unlikely because I saw it at Bedford fully loaded a few times. It definitely went south on the WCML from Bletchley, so the Garston part doesn't sound right either.

Taken from -

http://www.derbysulzers.com/85.html

 

[87015]

I could only find the above quote online. But this states it came from Forders, which is unlikely because I saw it at Bedford fully loaded a few times. It definitely went south on the WCML from Bletchley, so the Garston part doesn't sound right either.

Taken from -

http://www.derbysulzers.com/85.html

Was all traffic from Forders before Hanson binned it. Read the section at the end of this page http://www.derbysulzers.com/25freight.html on the excellent Derby Sulzers website

 

[DarloRich]

I could only find the above quote online. But this states it came from Forders, which is unlikely because I saw it at Bedford fully loaded a few times. It definitely went south on the WCML from Bletchley, so the Garston part doesn't sound right either.

Taken from -

http://www.derbysulzers.com/85.html

i wonder if you are thinking of the Cricklewood bin train. They accessed the branch via Bedford where as the brick trains seem to have gone out via Bletchley

 

[richieb1971]

i wonder if you are thinking of the Cricklewood bin train. They accessed the branch via Bedford where as the brick trains seem to have gone out via Bletchley

I am very familiar with the Cricklewood-Forders sidings bin liner. I watched it everyday from the age of about 7 until I left Kempston in 1983.

The online reference to the 4F53 at 12:40 is not the train I saw. I saw it mostly in the darkness of night at around 20:00~21:00. So its not the same working.

In those days Bletchley had 10-15 locos stabled in the station, mostly 25's and 31's.

 

[zn1]

the public schools at bedford, lots of political pressure has kept it open, "the st trinians expresses" in morning and evening are well loaded jobs
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
target 81 jobs dropped off ballast at lidlington tip, and at forders

 

[richieb1971]

For those who want to know what the landscape North East of Bedford looks like (for the route considered going north out of Bedford Midland and then East)


This is looking East between Oakley and Radwell -

Not sure how close to Ravensden the alignment would get but it gets quite hilly in that area -

 

[Blamethrower]

Doesn't need to go that far north, it would branch off before Clapham and skirt Brickhill. Rising all the way of course, but not insurmountable considering other projects or current infrastructure (Crossrail, thameslink, Lickey incline, Sheffield tram rising viaduct etc)