East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[richieb1971]

Probably because most of the shoppers were expected to come from Bedford, so would be assumed to be coming in their cars or on a bus. It's not exactly the MetroCentre at Gateshead, or anything remotely like it, just a pretty bog-standard collection of out-of-town retail sheds, so no obvious reason why anyone would be travelling a distance - and especially not from Bletchley/MK - to get there.

Yes, but it could be developed much further and with 2 railways either side of it, would make sense to do that.

I suggested to the EWR to put a halt there and they said it was outside of their plans. I contacted Richard Fuller (MP) and he said to perhaps ask him after the EWR have finished doing what they are doing first.

Putting a few slabs on top of concrete, a bridge and running services that stop for 2-3 minutes isn't exactly hard is it?

Even putting a walk bridge from southfields road to the other side of the track would help people walking to work at the retail park. Within 10 miles of this place I have seen bridges in really stupid places so remote that less than 200 people a year would use it. Yet when you ask to put a bridge that 200 people a day would use.. NOOOO! Its not going to happen

 

[jimm]

Yes, but it could be developed much further and with 2 railways either side of it, would make sense to do that.

I suggested to the EWR to put a halt there and they said it was outside of their plans. I contacted Richard Fuller (MP) and he said to perhaps ask him after the EWR have finished doing what they are doing first.

Putting a few slabs on top of concrete, a bridge and running services that stop for 2-3 minutes isn't exactly hard is it?

Even putting a walk bridge from southfields road to the other side of the track would help people walking to work at the retail park. Within 10 miles of this place I have seen bridges in really stupid places so remote that less than 200 people a year would use it. Yet when you ask to put a bridge that 200 people a day would use.. NOOOO! Its not going to happen

But it's not going to become a new MetroCentre or Bicester Village - it will just remain some sheds on the edge of Bedford, used by people from Bedford and close by.

Why would anyone come from MK - or anywhere else - to shop there when there is already more shopping and more retail sheds on their doorstep in MK?

 

[richieb1971]

I am pretty sure the revenue the Marston Vale trains would get by stopping at Kempston would be much higher than not stopping at Kempston.

I'd close Kempston Hardwick station and move it to Kempston where there is

A) Industrial estates
B) shopping precincts
C) Schools

There is no justification in keeping Kempston Hardwick open at all. Most passengers that get off there are extremely lost when leave the station because they think its near the Asda/Sainsbury's industrial estate down the road.

Out of my last visits to Kempston Hardwick I called a taxi for one lady stranded on the platform wondering where to go. The last time I was there a fella wanted to buy a car from Wilstead. Google maps said that KH station was less than 3 miles and the closest station. I ended up giving him and his 4 yo son a lift.

 

[A0]

I am pretty sure the revenue the Marston Vale trains would get by stopping at Kempston would be much higher than not stopping at Kempston.

I'd close Kempston Hardwick station and move it to Kempston where there is

A) Industrial estates
B) shopping precincts
C) Schools

There is no justification in keeping Kempston Hardwick open at all. Most passengers that get off there are extremely lost when leave the station because they think its near the Asda/Sainsbury's industrial estate down the road.

There is some merit at looking at the siting of certain stations.

Out of my last visits to Kempston Hardwick I called a taxi for one lady stranded on the platform wondering where to go. The last time I was there a fella wanted to buy a car from Wilstead. Google maps said that KH station was less than 3 miles and the closest station. I ended up giving him and his 4 yo son a lift.

However the case of the guy who used Google maps in this way without also checking street view or something else, shows he is probably an imbecile - the kind who when his sat-nav tells him to 'turn left' at the level crossing does exactly that.

 

[J-2739]

Does anyone know if this line is being built to UIC GB?

Thanks.

 

[Andyjs247]

W12/W10. So W12 where practicable; W10 where not.

 

[Lurpi]

It is not, no. And to my non-expert knowledge, no substantial proposal exists to build any new line in this country to that kind of loading gauge besides HS2. It would be a complete waste of time with EWR, given the amount of existing track and stations that are to be incorporated into the project.

Careful research (i.e. Googling "East west rail loading gauge" yields this result from Network Rail's CP5 enhancements delivery plan:

Phase 1 • A second running line between Bicester Town and Water Eaton, with consequential enhancements at Islip station. • New and enhanced overline structures to be constructed to W10 or W12 + electrification loading gauge, subject to gauging strategy and physical constraints. • Capacity enhancement works between Wolvercote Tunnel, Oxford North Junction and Oxford station, the scope of which is currently under development.

Phase 2 • Upgrading the existing Bicester Town to Bletchley freight line as a double-track 100mph multi-functional railway capable of accommodating three passenger services each way per hour and two additional paths per hour for freight and inter-regional services. • Upgrading the existing Aylesbury to Claydon Junction freight line as a single-track 100mph passenger railway capable of accommodating one passenger service and one freight service each way per hour. • Minor upgrading of the existing Bletchley – Bedford passenger railway to accommodate one additional fast passenger service each way per hour. • New station at Winslow. • New high-level platforms and track remodelling at Bletchley. • New and enhanced overline structures to be constructed to W10 or W12 + electrification loading gauge

 

[DarloRich]

I am pretty sure the revenue the Marston Vale trains would get by stopping at Kempston would be much higher than not stopping at Kempston.

I'd close Kempston Hardwick station and move it to Kempston where there is

A) Industrial estates
B) shopping precincts
C) Schools

There is no justification in keeping Kempston Hardwick open at all. Most passengers that get off there are extremely lost when leave the station because they think its near the Asda/Sainsbury's industrial estate down the road.

Out of my last visits to Kempston Hardwick I called a taxi for one lady stranded on the platform wondering where to go. The last time I was there a fella wanted to buy a car from Wilstead. Google maps said that KH station was less than 3 miles and the closest station. I ended up giving him and his 4 yo son a lift.

The entire area around Kempston Hardwick & Stewartby is allocated for both commercial and residential development. Plus when Wixhams is finished and the access to Ampthill Road gets sorted out the station becomes more attractive and accessible from a large population source.

Passenger numbers, while very low, have more than doubled in 10 years and passenger numbers on the branch generally are well up. I know 2 people who use Kempston daily to commute to MK & London.

As for moving the station - I am not sure that is practical. Access would be difficult and much further towards Bedford starts to impact on the passenger numbers at the 2 Bedford stations.

As for building a station to serve Bedford Interchange retail park I will simply say: :roll: It is a tiny retail park. If that is the justification for moving a station we should move Fenny Stratford back slightly as it could better serve Tesco and Beacon/Rushmere retail parks. Hell we could even serve IKEA!

It can take longer than that even if you already own the land yourself. See terminal 5.

If you spend 2-3 years working up a design, consulting with local communities, refining your design, doing full surveys, ground investigations, and preparing a Strategic Business Case to demonstrate why it is the right thing to do for the country, then it might only take another 2-3 years to get the necessary consents for a project of this size.

Be thankful we are not in France or Germany. The same process can take twice as long in France, and is measured in decades in Germany. As an example, the LGV-SEA from Tours to Bordeaux took 5 years to get the equivalent of planning consent after all the preliminary studies were done (EWR isn't even at that stage). It was another 3 years before construction started, and 6 years to build. And all of it is in open country.

Don't you know we will in a post expert, post fact world? Don't come here with your expert advice!

 

[richieb1971]

The entire area around Kempston Hardwick & Stewartby is allocated for both commercial and residential development. Plus when Wixhams is finished and the access to Ampthill Road gets sorted out the station becomes more attractive and accessible from a large population source.

Passenger numbers, while very low, have more than doubled in 10 years and passenger numbers on the branch generally are well up. I know 2 people who use Kempston daily to commute to MK & London.

As for moving the station - I am not sure that is practical. Access would be difficult and much further towards Bedford starts to impact on the passenger numbers at the 2 Bedford stations.

As for building a station to serve Bedford Interchange retial park I will simply say:

Kempston needs all the help it can get. The roads between Bedford and Kempston are gridlocked most of the day. A station at Kempston retail park also provides a much needed station for the other side of the line which has schools and a massive residential area. Oh and most people who work at the retail park live on the other side of the line and if you don't drive you have to walk a mile round the block to get over the line. A station would provide a bridge linking the two.

In fact a bridge is well over due, station or not. My wife works in the retail park and she knows people who walk all the way around the block when in reality they live less than 200 metres away from the retail park.

The road on which Kempston Hardwick is on has about 30 homes on it, some of the homes are huge and most if not all have cars outside.

Its hard to believe you think Kempston is not a viable deal, since I believe it would generate 10x the revenue of the next most used station on the line. With a population of 20000 people, its like a metropolis compared to the rest of the line.

 

[Blamethrower]

Don't you know we will in a post expert, post fact world? Don't come here with your expert advice!

Well, that's because everyone's an expert on the internet
So those who proclaim they are experts need to prove/disclose why or else they are just a know-it-all chump, like the rest of us. There are lots of industry insiders on here, but they don't disclose it for some understandable reasons. Therefore, if someone says "i'm an expert" on an internet forum, forgive me for calling bu114h1t.

Anyway, enough of that, what sort of developments are planned for Stewartby and KH that you've heard of? Wootton appears to be growing at a pace, and there appears to be some prep for warehouses opposite the Brewers Fayre at Marston Leys, making KH station probably more useful.

 

[DarloRich]

The line neatly bisects that whole area and divides the community - some bridges are certainly needed. I think there is only one foot bridge up towards St Johns and the two road bridges.

I think a station at Kempston isn't viable because i don't think it will generate anywhere near the numbers you suggest before we even consider how to build both the station and access to it. It is so close to St Johns and I assume the local community either commute locally, within Bedford or to London. You would end up with a similar situation to Fenny. People drive, get the bus or walk to Beltchley to go to London rather than use the connecting train.

At present Kempston Hardwick is in a rural location on the edge of town. IF the development comes up it will be in the middle of a mixed residential and commercial zone.

 

[Blamethrower]

Kempston needs all the help it can get. The roads between Bedford and Kempston are gridlocked most of the day. A station at Kempston retail park also provides a much needed station for the other side of the line which has schools and a massive residential area. Oh and most people who work at the retail park live on the other side of the line and if you don't drive you have to walk a mile round the block to get over the line. A station would provide a bridge linking the two.

In fact a bridge is well over due, station or not. My wife works in the retail park and she knows people who walk all the way around the block when in reality they live less than 200 metres away from the retail park.

The road on which Kempston Hardwick is on has about 30 homes on it, some of the homes are huge and most if not all have cars outside.

Its hard to believe you think Kempston is not a viable deal, since I believe it would generate 10x the revenue of the next most used station on the line. With a population of 20000 people, its like a metropolis compared to the rest of the line.

+1

Perhaps a re-siting to just under the bridge of the A421 so that it would serve the retail park, Marston Leys industrial estate etc.

There is still a large piece of land that used to be a sliproad before they finished the A421, perhaps that can be expanded into a larger car park and a station with a bridge.

Then it would serve Woburn road industrial estate too

 

[Blamethrower]

A station sited about here would be much more beneficial to the community, and those who travel to work at Woburn road ind estate, marston leys and interchange.

Red is platforms, blue is extended car park/more retail units, green is bridges and paths

 

[DarloRich]

Well, that's because everyone's an expert on the internet
So those who proclaim they are experts need to prove/disclose why or else they are just a know-it-all chump, like the rest of us. There are lots of industry insiders on here, but they don't disclose it for some understandable reasons. Therefore, if someone says "i'm an expert" on an internet forum, forgive me for calling bu114h1t.

Anyway, enough of that, what sort of developments are planned for Stewartby and KH that you've heard of? Wootton appears to be growing at a pace, and there appears to be some prep for warehouses opposite the Brewers Fayre at Marston Leys, making KH station probably more useful.

I was joking about the experts bit

The whole area around the old brickworks is earmarked for residential development with some commercial offices etc. No firm plans or committed developers as yet meaning the collage is out on its own in the middle of a wasteland!

http://www.marstonvale.co.uk/living/stewartby-park

The area around KH is set aside for more commercial development ( aka distribution warehouses) and some more housing to the south. That all seems a lot more fluid!

 

[The Planner]

It is not, no. And to my non-expert knowledge, no substantial proposal exists to build any new line in this country to that kind of loading gauge besides HS2. It would be a complete waste of time with EWR, given the amount of existing track and stations that are to be incorporated into the project.

Careful research (i.e. Googling "East west rail loading gauge" yields this result from Network Rail's CP5 enhancements delivery plan:

Bicester Bletchley will be W12, Aylesbury Claydon W10. It may end up being W12 depending on the cost difference.

 

[Blamethrower]

I was joking about the experts bit

The whole area around the old brickworks is earmarked for residential development with some commercial offices etc. No firm plans or committed developers as yet meaning the collage is out on its own in the middle of a wasteland!

http://www.marstonvale.co.uk/living/stewartby-park

The area around KH is set aside for more commercial development ( aka distribution warehouses) and some more housing to the south. That all seems a lot more fluid!

hehe, no worries.

Thanks fella, good info, all does look as if Marston Vale is going to be massively developed in the coming years

 

[DarloRich]

hehe, no worries.

Thanks fella, good info, all does look as if Marston Vale is going to be massively developed in the coming years

it is all the way along the line. For instance the bit between Bow Brickhill & Fenny Stratford ( in fact all the way round to Newton Leys) is earmarked for homes. Consultation is expected shortly on 4500 + homes.


Of course, depending how the economy goes none of this may happen! However if it does our sleepy branch line might suddenly be busy and those quiet rural stations may look very attractive to commuters.

 

[richieb1971]

I think the line needs to be utilized/discovered by people. It would help of course if the traction was modernized. Hopefully EWR will allow electric units to utilize the line when the numbers do pick up. (marston vale trains not the EWR trains).

 

[Blamethrower]

I recently went on a business trip to Preston and I purposely booked a train from MK so I could use the Marston Vale line.

I honestly felt that I was in the middle of Wales. Here we were, right in the middle of a congested country and there is this little branch line that runs knackered old 150s (or similar) at a snails pace, picking up 1 - 5 people per stop.

I actually found it a lovely way to start the day

 

[DarloRich]

I recently went on a business trip to Preston and I purposely booked a train from MK so I could use the Marston Vale line.

I honestly felt that I was in the middle of Wales. Here we were, right in the middle of a congested country and there is this little branch line that runs knackered old 150s (or similar) at a snails pace, picking up 1 - 5 people per stop.

I actually found it a lovely way to start the day

You went for the premier option I see - you should try the 153! The 1-5 people is miles better than the 1/2 people of a few years ago.

 

[Blamethrower]

You went for the premier option I see - you should try the 153! The 1-5 people is miles better than the 1/2 people of a few years ago.

cool, so passenger use has more than doubled!! hurray!

 

[cle]

It definitely has potential - not many similar E/W routes across the South Midlands/north of London. It's double tracked at least.

I could see a lot of different uses - yes E/W services to Bedford and Cambridge/MML, but also for MK commuting/development and more freight.

The MKC routing would help but it does sound difficult.

 

[DarloRich]

cool, so passenger use has more than doubled!! hurray!

They are going up every year. The numbers are low ( it is a rural non densely populated area) but they are better. In the 5 years i have used the line everyday they have noticeably increased. Take Fenny. I was the only person getting on there every morning. Now we have 4/5 of us.

Although i think the Amazon distribution centre & better connections at Beltchley are the main reasons for the increase. We now have a sensible morning and evening connection into London trains. The missing link is the trip to MK.

 

[Ianno87]

They are going up every year. The numbers are low ( it is a rural non densely populated area) but they are better. In the 5 years i have used the line everyday they have noticeably increased. Take Fenny. I was the only person getting on there every morning. Now we have 4/5 of us.

Although i think the Amazon distribution centre & better connections at Beltchley are the main reasons for the increase. We now have a sensible morning and evening connection into London trains. The missing link is the trip to MK.

Of course, if it's necessary to retime the trains to slot them onto the Slow Lines to/from MK, it stands every chance of screwing up the neat London connections.

Choices, people, choices!

 

[richieb1971]

Of course, if it's necessary to retime the trains to slot them onto the Slow Lines to/from MK, it stands every chance of screwing up the neat London connections.

Choices, people, choices!

Its not worth it as it requires a full reversal at Bletchley. I always voted for the Northampton line to get rebuilt so a circular loop could be created but its not cost worthy right now.

 

[The Planner]

Northampton would need a reversal too surely and we have done that debate to death.

 

[Blamethrower]

Northampton would need a reversal too surely and we have done that debate to death.

Agreed. Whenever a reversal is involved, for me it's a different service.

When the Central section is built, I'm interested to see what happens in Bedford as a reversal will just be silly, but the cheapest so I should expect it I suppose

 

[snowball]

Press release

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...-rail-experts-carry-out-extensive-bat-studies

Network Rail is working with ecologists to carry out an extensive study into what impact the new railway upgrade between Oxford and Bedford will have on the local environment, paying particular attention to a rare species of bat known to roost in the local area.

Experts from Network Rail’s environmental team have been out at dusk and dawn, trapping and tagging bats at key areas along the project route. The aim is to understand whether or not some very rare Bechstein’s bat, known to roost in the Sheephouse wood/Bernwood Estate area near Aylesbury are also present in other areas of the scheme.

The project team has already carried out extensive studies including watching surveys at potential roosts and the use of automatic ‘listening’ bat detectors.

 

[The Planner]

Sheephouse Wood is also a major issue for HS2 too, the two lines are within metres of each other there.

 

[Class 170101]

Press release

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...-rail-experts-carry-out-extensive-bat-studies

Great Crested Newts?