East Midlands Trains Cleaning

[anti-pacer]

A PNB is a legally required break.

A TM/guard/ whatever todays posh name for them is walking through a train between stations is every different thing but assumes the TM/guard/ whatever todays posh name for them is has a bag to put all the rubbish in, I never had one when I was a guard.

Once guards start doing it then the TOC will look at either quietly removing the cleaners and so encourage the TM/guard/ whatever todays posh name for them is to do it themselves or look at making guards do it "because they do it anyway" and make the cleaners redundant and so make more profit.

It might sound rather pathetic but the more the TOCs get for nothing the more they expect.

Yes very fair point, but I think we all agree that TOC's need to do more to step up cleanliness levels.

 

[455driver]

Yes very fair point, but I think we all agree that TOC's need to do more to step up cleanliness levels.

Deleted in line with my new policy.

 

[anti-pacer]

You'll probably find the staff will pay your wages at some point too.

Agreed, and if the service I offered in my job falls short of customer expectations, I would expect the inevitable complaint and a strong word or two from my manager.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hang on you said the guards should do it, make your mind up! :roll:

The TOCs wont pay for something if they can get it for free.

When you explained it in more depth, what you said makes more sense. If you ALWAYS do it, then as you say, your employers will no doubt expect it and remove cleaners.

I still maintain that it may be necessary for you to do it on occasions, but your bosses could and should do more.

 

[455driver]

Agreed, and if the service I offered in my job falls short of customer expectations, I would expect the inevitable complaint and a strong word or two from my manager.

Deleted in line with my new policy.

 

[NSEFAN]

Agreed, and if the service I offered in my job falls short of customer expectations, I would expect the inevitable complaint and a strong word or two from my manager.

And if the customer expects you to do something which you are not paid to do, would you always do what they say? Picking up a few bits of litter is easy to argue, but would you clean dirty toilets if the customer demanded it?

To give you an example, I worked in retail for a few years, and I had on several occasionals customers ask for extra discount. When I refused (because I had exhausted the "quota" allowed), they said they wouldn't buy it, and that I'd lose out because, apparently, they pay my wages. :roll:

 

[455driver]

they pay my wages. :roll:

I had a drunk have a go at me because he missed the train and he came out with the "I pay your wages you c##t" line, I just shouted back "I will take the pay cut a##hole" as I powered away, customer service my derriere!

 

[anti-pacer]

And you would start doing things over and above what you are paid/contracted to do and expect nothing in return would you?

Well except when something serious happens and the TOC looks back over your working day, sees you have not taken your (legally required) PNB and blames you/hangs you out on your own to the vultures as you are dragged through the courts!

You would be happy for that to happen because "its only a bit of litter picking" isnt it.

Like I've said, on many journeys I've been on, the guard hasn't even appeared (except for door operation).

I'm not for one minute suggesting that you compromise safety for the sake of litter picking, and I will revert my suggestion that you work part of your break to clean a train (defeat on that accepted).

However, please don't tell me that asking a few carriages of passengers to dispose of their litter, in a bin bag you're holding is likely to result in serious incident, not when I've seen guards do so.

I am only suggesting you do this on longer time sections between stations, after ticket checks, etc, and if seriously needed.

Let's not blow this out of proportion! I'm talking about litter picking, not polishing the wheels whilst the train's moving!! :roll:

 

[455driver]

Deleted in line with my new policy.

 

[Tibbs]

If I am correct then the time the train is in Liverpool is a PNB, so it is not work time.

Would you go and clean something for work when you are on your dinner break?

I regularly work through my lunch.

 

[455driver]

I regularly work through my lunch.

Deleted in line with my new policy.

 

[anti-pacer]

Where does the guard get the plastic bag from?

You started off by saying that the staff should clean the litter up while the train is sat at Liverpool, that is what was answered.

And I accepted on further explanation from yourself that it wouldn't be appropriate for you to do so, and I accepted defeat on that.

Interestingly, reading the job spec for Train Guards/Drivers with your very own SWT, the following is mentioned....

Getting people to where they want to be going safely and comfortably is vital, and we work seven days a week, 52 weeks a year, to do this. Every weekday we run over 1,700 trains out of London Waterloo, which results in around 189 million passenger journeys per year.

We rely upon the flexibility of our guards and drivers to help us achieve this. Our employees are safety conscious, happy to go the extra mile with the rest of the team, and be positive, proactive and professional. You must genuinely enjoy working with the public and always strive to leave a good impression with a smile.

Furthermore, in more depth for a Train Guard...

Looking after the safety and comfort of our customers on our trains is the responsibility of our Train Guards. It’s a job where no two days are the same and no two problems alike, so there’s always something challenging happening.

Train guards ensure that the on-train environment is safe and comfortable. They walk the carriages, answer questions and give information. Train Guards make announcements over the public address system, keeping our customers informed about arrivals and connections and lead the response to any on-train emergency, acting as the central point of contact.

Commercial Train Guards will also check customers' travel documents and sell tickets.

Everything a train guard does is led by one aim: to make travelling with South West Trains an experience people would want to repeat.
Train guards are provided with a comprehensive training programme, which includes rules, operating instructions and customer service skills, as well as exceptional career development opportunities. The train guards salary will increase upon successful completion of the training (approx 4 months after commencement).

Safety is a 'given'... comfort to me includes cleanliness. Going the extra mile is also fairly normal within reason.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And if the customer expects you to do something which you are not paid to do, would you always do what they say? Picking up a few bits of litter is easy to argue, but would you clean dirty toilets if the customer demanded it?

To give you an example, I worked in retail for a few years, and I had on several occasionals customers ask for extra discount. When I refused (because I had exhausted the "quota" allowed), they said they wouldn't buy it, and that I'd lose out because, apparently, they pay my wages. :roll:

I don't work in a direct customer facing role now, however, as a previous Assistant Manager at National Express Nottingham Travel Centre, I have had to clean up vomit and urine, as well as litter left in the waiting area.

 

[455driver]

Deleted in line with my new policy.

 

[anti-pacer]

Doesnt mention anything about picking up litter though does it!

Maybe, to take this to an illogical conclusion, we should also provide foot stools and massages as well, after all it can be stressful travelling on trains.

Going the extra mile to me would indeed include basic litter picking on a filthy train, especially when your passengers are complaining at you.

In fact, no, this would, to me, be part of my BASIC duties, whether it was in my job description or not.

I once asked a guard on the Cumbrian Coast line, who was moving litter from the seats into bins if that was part of her job. Her reply was "Not officially, but I want the trains I work on to be as clean and comfortable for my passengers, even the dirty ones".

Fair play to her!

 

[Tomnick]

Guards cleaning the train to 'help out' when something's gone wrong with the usual cleaning process might seem like a cracking idea, but - as others have said - it's inevitable that the beancounters will see that as an opportunity to cut costs ("why can't they always do it?"), so you end up worse off in the long term. Incidentally, I personally think that Guards who consistently make no effort to leave the back cab are putting the whole grade in danger of the same outcome - I don't like DOO, but lazy Guards (a minority, I know!) damage one of the main arguments against it...

 

[edwin_m]

There are cases where on-train crew come down with a bag for litter, for example on the EMT London-Nottingham trains. This journey has relatively long gaps between most stops to carry out ticket checks, most of the stops are barriered anyway, and there is somewhere to lock the catering trolley away when it is unattended. So you'd expect that the several on-board crew would have the time to spare for this.

I suggest the Liverpool-Norwich is a bit different. There is normally one conductor to check tickets in four coaches, with stops being much closer together and probably a much greater proportion of passengers needing to buy tickets on the train. Generally the only other on-board person is a catering attendant who has nowhere secure to leave the trolley when doing something else.

If they are doing their jobs properly, both of these people will be on their feet for most of the 3hr journey from Nottingham to Liverpool or Norwich and thoroughly deserve a 20min break before doing the same on the way back - about long enough to visit the toilet and grab a cup of tea.

People have confirmed in this thread that these trains generally get a quick clean at both ends and midway through the journey, with staff boarding specially to do this. If it frequently falls down or is insufficient, that is an issue for EMT management to attend to rather than expecting the crews to cover for them.

 

[anti-pacer]

There are cases where on-train crew come down with a bag for litter, for example on the EMT London-Nottingham trains. This journey has relatively long gaps between most stops to carry out ticket checks, most of the stops are barriered anyway, and there is somewhere to lock the catering trolley away when it is unattended. So you'd expect that the several on-board crew would have the time to spare for this.

I suggest the Liverpool-Norwich is a bit different. There is normally one conductor to check tickets in four coaches, with stops being much closer together and probably a much greater proportion of passengers needing to buy tickets on the train. Generally the only other on-board person is a catering attendant who has nowhere secure to leave the trolley when doing something else.

If they are doing their jobs properly, both of these people will be on their feet for most of the 3hr journey from Nottingham to Liverpool or Norwich and thoroughly deserve a 20min break before doing the same on the way back - about long enough to visit the toilet and grab a cup of tea.

People have confirmed in this thread that these trains generally get a quick clean at both ends and midway through the journey, with staff boarding specially to do this. If it frequently falls down or is insufficient, that is an issue for EMT management to attend to rather than expecting the crews to cover for them.

Agreed Edwin, and as previously stated TOC's need to step their game up regarding train cleanliness. However, in certain circumstances (i.e. when things fail) is it really unacceptable to ask your staff to muck in as it were?

During my time at National Express in Nottingham, where plans frequently failed, we ALL went beyond the call of duty. We were a team.

 

[Tomnick]

On the odd occasion, possibly not - but I suspect it'll depend how much a part of 'the team' the traincrew feel. Given the recently publicised rumblings at Nottingham, they're perhaps a little less motivated than normal, and thus less inclined to help out to cover someone else's failings...

 

[anti-pacer]

On the odd occasion, possibly not - but I suspect it'll depend how much a part of 'the team' the traincrew feel. Given the recently publicised rumblings at Nottingham, they're perhaps a little less motivated than normal, and thus less inclined to help out to cover someone else's failings...

Well internal politics at any company is one thing, but not doing a little bit of litter picking because your boss isn't running a happy ship is unlikely to wash with passengers.

Brave faces are needed sometimes, they certainly were at National Express. :neutral:

 

[Tomnick]

Indeed, but if that 'bit of litter picking' is turned into an opportunity to save money by getting rid of the cleaners, everyone loses but the shareholders! If there is an ongoing problem with cleaning (which it appears there isn't!), then traincrew doing their bit to help just allows the management to get away without sorting the problem.

 

[323235]

East Midlands Trains: clean only between Chesterfield and Nottingham AFAIK on that route.
FTPE: much better for train cleaning with termini cleaning.
Northern Rail: the above would have been standard!

Northern Rail have now upped their game on services out of Piccadilly. They have travelling cleaners between Stockport and Manchester and cleaners check trains whilst docked at Piccadilly. Two cleaners today came down in the space of 10 minutes, the second double checking a satisfactory job had been done.

 

[anti-pacer]

If there is an ongoing problem with cleaning (which it appears there isn't!)

You've never travelled with Northern then?!

 

[455driver]

Well internal politics at any company is one thing, but not doing a little bit of litter picking because your boss isn't running a happy ship is unlikely to wash with passengers.

Deleted in line with my new policy.

 

[anti-pacer]

So it doesnt matter what railstaff (or even EMT staff) say, you had already made your mind up that its the conductors job before even posting! :roll:

So this thread is just another moan about railstaff really, maybe we need a specific part of the forum where all the moaners can go without infecting the rest of this forum?

455... I'm not moaning about rail staff at all.

I'm simply saying that some TOC's need to step up their act in regards to cleaning, and if, on occasion that requires guards/conductors to do a little bit themselves, then so be it.

Which of this is me 'moaning' about rail staff? :?

 

[Geargrinder]

So it doesnt matter what railstaff in general (or even EMT staff in particular) say, you had already made your mind up that its the conductors job before even posting! :roll:

So this thread is just another moan about railstaff really, maybe we need a specific part of the forum where all the moaners can go without infecting the rest of this forum?

Well said - people moan about everything, a moaning forum is definitely required ! I was actually on an EMT service last week. The carriage was clean ie my clothes didn't get dirty by sitting in it. There was an empty coffee cup on the seat I chose, which had been left by a litterbug previously sitting there. I took it with me as I left the train and threw it in the bin. Litter is a problem of society.... Perhaps EMT could employ a cleaner on every train and keep them immaculate for a 5% increase in fares, I bet that would go down well with the moaners ! As for making it part of a conductors job - totally ridiculous, I'm sure most conductors do pick up litter as anyone would if they found it in their workplace when time etc permits.

 

[ainsworth74]

I have deleted a few posts that were taking totally off topic. I would ask that from this point forward we stick to the topic at hand.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Amid all this debate about what a guard should and should not do (and I would agree that having sufficient rest via a PNB is more important than litter picking) what I think is more important here is the issue in the first place - where there is the provision of bins (off hand I can't think of any class of train in the UK expect perhaps 438s where bins are not available) then passengers should use them. Further, they should be on all stations too: I don't buy into them being a terrorist threat - no meaningful terrorist attack will be diverted because there are no bins. Whilst this was a favoured tactic over recent decades, any modern attack will use other methods. I do think some companies use it as an excuse not to bother with the trouble of installing and maintaining them sadly. Moreover, a roving team of cleaners (it need not even be a team!) who just shuttle about on train all day ensuring bins are emptied should suffice.

Once all three of these criteria are met (granted, most are almost there, 1 and 3 especially) then the need for a guard or anyone other staff to do anything should be obsolete. Just take responsibility in the first place using the facilities provided and the problem disappears.

(And (as a non-staff regular user of Northern) I can see how this is being construed as an anti-staff rant!)

 

[anti-pacer]

I'm sure most conductors do pick up litter as anyone would if they found it in their workplace when time etc permits.

Which is ALL I was suggesting! :roll:

I wasn't actually suggesting it's made part of your job, but SOME guards do clean, as I would in that job!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Amid all this debate about what a guard should and should not do (and I would agree that having sufficient rest via a PNB is more important than litter picking) what I think is more important here is the issue in the first place - where there is the provision of bins (off hand I can't think of any class of train in the UK expect perhaps 438s where bins are not available) then passengers should use them. Further, they should be on all stations too: I don't buy into them being a terrorist threat - no meaningful terrorist attack will be diverted because there are no bins. Whilst this was a favoured tactic over recent decades, any modern attack will use other methods. I do think some companies use it as an excuse not to bother with the trouble of installing and maintaining them sadly. Moreover, a roving team of cleaners (it need not even be a team!) who just shuttle about on train all day ensuring bins are emptied should suffice.

Once all three of these criteria are met (granted, most are almost there, 1 and 3 especially) then the need for a guard or anyone other staff to do anything should be obsolete. Just take responsibility in the first place using the facilities provided and the problem disappears.

(And (as a non-staff regular user of Northern) I can see how this is being construed as an anti-staff rant!)

I agree with the above and if 5% was put on top of the fare to cover roving cleaners, I would be more than happy with that.

You get what you pay for I suppose!

 

[455driver]

I have deleted a few posts that were taking totally off topic.

As have I. .

 

[W230]

Trains are almost always spotless & toilets tanked on departure from Norwich. Guys here furthest east do a grand job.

I hope the post didn't come across as a critiscism of the cleaning of said EMT 158s - it's a dig at the grubby passengers!

That's what I find funny in a strange way - it's (a minority of) passengers trashing trains that leaves the majority of passengers annoyed with the mess but yes, before someone says it, I know units still need cleaning anyway!

 

[anti-pacer]

it's (a minority of) passengers trashing trains that leaves the majority of passengers annoyed with the mess

Spot on!