East Midlands Railway short formed services

[Llandudno]

Does anyone know why EMR trains are always so filthy on the outside. I cannot remember the last time that I traveled on a service that didn't have dirty windows.

Perhaps the cleaners are working from home…!

 

[dk1]

Does anyone know why EMR trains are always so filthy on the outside. I cannot remember the last time that I traveled on a service that didn't have dirty windows.

That has been a long standing problem, particularly with the 156 fleet even through the Stagecoach era.

 

[ChrisC]

I really hope the full timetable returns in December!

Derby - Crewe was left with a 4 hour gap today after the first Crewe bound service failed at Nottingham. This meant the first arrival into Crewe wasn't until 1105!

I would hope that there will be some increases in services well before December but I’m beginning to think it won’t happen.

 

[Djgr]

Norwich City vs Manchester City at Manchester, next Saturday, 21st.

I wonder if EMR will take account of this when allocating units on Saturday!

However, presumably there will be plenty of room for the hordes wishing to travel to the Costa del Corby?

 

[dk1]

However, presumably there will be plenty of room for the hordes wishing to travel to the Costa del Corby?

I don’t think it’s fair to compare regional routes to that unless you where just being sarcastic.

 

[Scott1]

However, presumably there will be plenty of room for the hordes wishing to travel to the Costa del Corby?

Short forming is common on those too. Issues with unit shortages aren't limited to the regional services.

 

[Mogz]

Did I imagine it or did EMT (as was) consider running 222s on the Liverpool-Norwich services? It was big news as I recall but came to nothing. It would have been around 5 years ago.

 

[swt_passenger]

Did I imagine it or did EMT (as was) consider running 222s on the Liverpool-Norwich services? It was big news as I recall but came to nothing. It would have been around 5 years ago.

I think they strengthened the Liverpool end of the route with 222s for the Grand National, but I’m sure people said at the time it was never intended to use them on the whole route.

 

[Djgr]

I don’t think it’s fair to compare regional routes to that unless you where just being sarcastic.

Except it suggests that EMR have been distracted by the new sexy but essentially marginal new service at the expense of the one they are meant to run that connects SEVEN important cities.

 

[Skymonster]

TPE 185s would be way better than EMT’s clunkers on the Nottingham-Liverpool sections, but sadly DfT seems to have rejected another excellent idea

 

[Robertj21a]

Except it suggests that EMR have been distracted by the new sexy but essentially marginal new service at the expense of the one they are meant to run that connects SEVEN important cities.

Are you suggesting they should put 360s on the Liverpool run.....?

 

[Fokx]

TPE 185s would be way better than EMT’s clunkers on the Nottingham-Liverpool sections, but sadly DfT seems to have rejected another excellent idea

The route and trains are still the subject of DfT discussion. It would have happened if it wasn’t for Covid.

 

[dk1]

Except it suggests that EMR have been distracted by the new sexy but essentially marginal new service at the expense of the one they are meant to run that connects SEVEN important cities.

But it’s a totally different part of EMR as it always has been since CT merged with MML. You cannot compare.

 

[Tomnick]

TPE 185s would be way better than EMT’s clunkers on the Nottingham-Liverpool sections, but sadly DfT seems to have rejected another excellent idea

EMR 185s would be way better, for the staff at the depot that has about a quarter of its work over the route at least!

 

[Skymonster]

EMR 185s would be way better, for the staff at the depot that has about a quarter of its work over the route at least!

No, not EMR 185s - TPE 185s

 

[Tomnick]

No, not EMR 185s - TPE 185s

Each to their own. Personally I don't see what's excellent about making potentially a quarter of a depot redundant and carrying out a recruitment/training exercise elsewhere, just to have staff in a different uniform working the same trains over the route.

 

[Fokx]

EMR 185s would be way better, for the staff at the depot that has about a quarter of its work over the route at least!

Each to their own. Personally I don't see what's excellent about making potentially a quarter of a depot redundant and carrying out a recruitment/training exercise elsewhere, just to have staff in a different uniform working the same trains over the route.

It wouldn’t be ‘better’. It would be the same.

TPE have staff at Cleethorpes, Airport, Piccadilly, Sheffield and Liverpool all trained on the trains, have depots and route knowledge already. (Except Sheffield to Nottingham) People seem to forget that the route was due to be given to TPE last year, and a decision on the route is still to be made, the current situation is temporary until 2022 timetable change when decisions on the Castlefield corridor are to be made.

TfN still prefer the route to go to TPE (or the next iteration thereof)

 

[_toommm_]

Each to their own. Personally I don't see what's excellent about making potentially a quarter of a depot redundant and carrying out a recruitment/training exercise elsewhere, just to have staff in a different uniform working the same trains over the route.

Are they not TUPEing EMR staff to TPE? Surely that would make more sense than redundancies due to a change of franchise?

 

[dk1]

Are they not TUPEing EMR staff to TPE? Surely that would make more sense than redundancies due to a change of franchise?

That’s what normally happens on the railway? Just TUPE’d across.

 

[Tomnick]

Are they not TUPEing EMR staff to TPE? Surely that would make more sense than redundancies due to a change of franchise?

They're not doing anything (yet). It'll stay with EMR for the foreseeable future. If it did ever go to TPE though, I'd be surprised if they didn't cover the work from Sheffield, so TUPE'ing would also involve relocation.

TPE might have depots, and staff at them, with the requisite traction knowledge and most of the route knowledge, but unless they're hideously over-establishment at the moment then they wouldn't be able to cover the extra work without extensive recruitment and associated training.

 

[Fokx]

TPE might have depots, and staff at them, with the requisite traction knowledge and most of the route knowledge, but unless they're hideously over-establishment at the moment then they wouldn't be able to cover the extra work without extensive recruitment and associated training.

Which is exactly what they were doing prior to Covid.

TPE began their recruitment process and was even looking at depot expansions, but then the global pandemic happened, passenger numbers dropped alongside the (then) planned timetable change for late 2021 which would have seen a TPE Liverpool to Nottingham replacing the EMR Liverpool to Norwich. (TPE even looked to eventually extend their Nottingham service to Leicester and this still remains on destination blind codes)

Then came the announcement from the DfT, TfN and the TOCs involved that due to issues surrounding training the route would not transfer and would remain with EMR for the foreseeable (until atleast 2022 minimum).

EMR then announced their intentions to create a Liverpool depot, and began the recruitment process for drivers. However, this too seems to have gone cold.

May 2022 will be when decisions are made and nothing will change until then, and passengers (particularly in the west - including myself) will come to expect short formations and the current service unreliability that crewing a long distance service from only one end of the route will bring.

 

[londonmidland]

Does anyone know how long the 'temporary' EMR regional timetable will last, which includes 2 hourly or more gaps on several routes? Norwich/Grantham/Nottingham to Manchester/Liverpool as well as the Crewe to Derby/Nottingham services have become a joke, and it seems cancellations can occur at any given moment.

 

[Killingworth]

Does anyone know how long the 'temporary' EMR regional timetable will last, which includes 2 hourly or more gaps on several routes? Norwich/Grantham/Nottingham to Manchester/Liverpool as well as the Crewe to Derby/Nottingham services have become a joke, and it seems cancellations can occur at any given moment.

They said December but with suggestion it might be sooner. Given the number of short forms and cancellations we're seeing might even December be too optimistic?

 

[dk1]

EMR then announced their intentions to create a Liverpool depot, and began the recruitment process for drivers. However, this too seems to have gone cold.

I was under the impression that drivers had been recruited & trained & the Liverpool depot had started.

 

[LowLevel]

I was under the impression that drivers had been recruited & trained & the Liverpool depot had started.

Recruitment started but was paused.

 

[dk1]

Recruitment started but was paused.

Thanks. Thought things started to happen. Oh well.

 

[LowLevel]

Thanks. Thought things started to happen. Oh well.

At the moment "cheap" is the buzzword and cheap involves keeping things as they are, at least for now, it appears.

 

[Fokx]

I was under the impression that drivers had been recruited & trained & the Liverpool depot had started.

It’s on hiatus with no end date.

All additional costs must be approved by the DfT as the railway has been seen to be ‘a burden of the taxpayer’. Anything and everything from running additional services, catering and refurbishments have to be approved by the DfT.

 

[PHILIPE]

Does anyone know how long the 'temporary' EMR regional timetable will last, which includes 2 hourly or more gaps on several routes? Norwich/Grantham/Nottingham to Manchester/Liverpool as well as the Crewe to Derby/Nottingham services have become a joke, and it seems cancellations can occur at any given moment.

Might find all the timetable information here:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/revised-emr-regional-timetables-from-19th-june.218776/page-5

 

[Tomnick]

Which is exactly what they were doing prior to Covid.

TPE began their recruitment process and was even looking at depot expansions, but then the global pandemic happened, passenger numbers dropped alongside the (then) planned timetable change for late 2021 which would have seen a TPE Liverpool to Nottingham replacing the EMR Liverpool to Norwich. (TPE even looked to eventually extend their Nottingham service to Leicester and this still remains on destination blind codes)

The DfT's stated position, at the time, was that the transfer would co-incide with an increase in local services in Lincolnshire though, which would balance out the loss of work at Nottingham. To some extent at least, that's now been catered for with an increase in establishment at a number of depots, so you'd be back to looking at potential redundancies, which is rather less than ideal.

May 2022 will be when decisions are made and nothing will change until then, and passengers (particularly in the west - including myself) will come to expect short formations and the current service unreliability that crewing a long distance service from only one end of the route will bring.

Short formations are a consequence of working an increasingly ancient fleet rather intensively, compounded by (maintenance) staffing issues, not an operator-specific issue. Newer trains should overcome that, regardless of the operator - and traction training the crews that already work the route would solve that much more quickly than recruiting and training new drivers and guards to cover the work at a different TOC.

Traincrew shortages are another thing altogether, of course, but it's a hopefully temporary shortage (of drivers in particular) that's the current problem, not the fact that it's resourced from one end. There is resilience, traincrew wise, in that drivers step back at Liverpool so there's always effectively a useful spare there (it'd be ideal if guards did the same, but that's another story!) and the possibility of bouncing late-running trains straight back for a right-time start. Simplicity of diagramming has to be worth something too - they are (again, at least for drivers) all round trips from Nottingham, so you're unlikely to get traincrew out of position in a way that seriously hinders service recovery in the same way that you might if you have trains worked by a number of different depots and with relief en-route.