East Coast

[YorkshireRider]

There will be a new timetable on December 12th but if it does change at all it will only be very minor changes such as a change in calling pattern on 2 or 3 services with the big changes not til next May. With the exception of saturday night/ sunday morning which does see some changes and new extra services.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks guys

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Monday - Friday yes. The timetable is already online. Weekends will depend on engineering work.

Whereabouts - I can't find it on the E£C Eureka website...

 

[ainsworth74]

Whereabouts - I can't find it on the E£C Eureka website...

I was talking about April, Eureka doesn't come into effect till May

 

[DarloRich]

Bit late to this thread so, for what they are worth, are my observations.

Until i moved to MK for work this summer I was a regular traveller from Darlington/Northallerton to all points on the ECML. I have been using the service, both first and second class, for at least 20 years on my own and for most of my life before that (we didn’t have a car for a long time!)

BR/Intercity = Offered a great train service, which , at times ,fell short on customer service. However compared to what we get on many routes now it was first class and cost us as tax players very little. The service was profitable, quick, punctual. It was an improving service which GNER rightly spotted as the jewel in the crown and paid big to get hold of.

They took the framework Intercity put in place, staff, trains, routes, service and built on that. Customer service was always excellent, food was excellent, first class was simply wonderful, second class was good too. They ran a proper train service and made train travel exciting and attractive. I often travelled for business first class and they had targeted offers, loyalty cards and never tried to undercut the cheaper options. They had a premium service, knew this and ran it accordingly. They overbid to keep the franchise and paid for it, as did we the travelling public.

National Express tried to destroy all of the BR/GNER good work. The quality of service feel through the floor, staff were main redundant, facilities run down. They ran a premium intercity service like one of their bloody buses. God only knows what it would have been like if they carried on. They reduced a premium service and increased the price. Staff morale was terrible, staff numbers were down and they introduced ticket barriers (luckily they were beaten at York!) The reliability of the trains, always a priority before fell, as did on board standards. They were a disaster and should have been stripped of all their franchises.

East Coast are trying hard to reverse the decline. There is a template to follow, just follow it. They have started to climb back up the hill but I doubt anyone will reach the standards set by GNER. At least they seem to understand that trains are not busses and that passengers dont want to be squashed into cattle trucks. The trains are cleaner and are being delivered, reliability is coming back up and the timetable is pretty decent but could do with some polishing.

So league table:

1) GNER
2) BR/Intercity
3) East Coast
4) By a long way NEX

 

[jon0844]

They overbid to keep the franchise and paid for it, as did we the travelling public.

That's an understatement. They bid far too much, which meant we all predicted they'd have to cut the service and increase charges. When it all went tits up (and I accept it wasn't all down to GNER but its parent company), National Express bid even more!!

There's no harm in offering a premium service, but it had to also offer value for money for off-peak/advance ticket holders and try and keep a reasonable walk-on fare.

Despite the romance of travelling that you could get on GNER, and also on Virgin or Eurostar, it's still public transport and not simply about trying to match Virgin Upper Class or something.

The problem is that as costs increase, margins are squeezed. Eventually something has to give, either in terms of service, or increased fares to simply offer the exact same service people used to get or expect.

As each operator predicted growth as if it was never going to end (rather like Labour did), it was always doomed to fail.

East Coast can't afford to make that mistake.

 

[DarloRich]

Agrred - But the premium service is to attract business customers not you and me in second class. That is what GNER recognised as should any opperator going forward.

The money is there in the business market, it can be exploited because a certain section of people will pay for it (till i changed jobs i was one of them!). The challenge is to keep standard class off peak fares at a sensible level offering a decent service, not a world class servcie and not a budget airline service. Travel at peak times and you will pay for it. However most people know this and only try to travel at peak times for work, when work pays!

 

[silentone]

On EC, coach H is always unreserved in the Mk4 sets (last Standard class with the CafeBar in) as is K in First class. HSTs never have G (Standard) or J (First) reserved. This does give the confusion that you can book into the restuarant on Mk4s but not on HSTs.
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That by the way is the system that applies to Advance purchases. If you request a seat reservation at the station, the system will give you seats in the above coaches anyway.

Slightly incorrect, only part of G will be unreserved. Typically coach C or E have lesser reservations also... I think they try and keep C for party bookings actually. Coach K will also be reserved and frequently is for Advance tickets.

On the subject of Eureka!. I managed to get myself a little peek at parts of the new timetable the other day. The fast Edb-KGX service is the 0540 calling at Newcastle only with a booked arrival of 0940! I can't remember the time of the return but it's Newcastle, Edinburgh & Glasgow. (It may well have been 1820) Some of the times don't appear to be much like the published draft at all and I'm guessing the fast return trip will be the much anticipated Pendo service.

 

[jopsuk]

I've never quite understood why, what with both fleets having been refurbished more than once since the mrk4s came along, East Coast have two different layouts- surely it would make sense to make the two as similar as is humanely possible?

 

[YorkshireRider]

Slightly incorrect, only part of G will be unreserved. Typically coach C or E have lesser reservations also... I think they try and keep C for party bookings actually. Coach K will also be reserved and frequently is for Advance tickets.

On the subject of Eureka!. I managed to get myself a little peek at parts of the new timetable the other day. The fast Edb-KGX service is the 0540 calling at Newcastle only with a booked arrival of 0940! I can't remember the time of the return but it's Newcastle, Edinburgh & Glasgow. (It may well have been 1820) Some of the times don't appear to be much like the published draft at all and I'm guessing the fast return trip will be the much anticipated Pendo service.

So is the timetable signed off and finished?

 

[scotsman]

Slightly incorrect, only part of G will be unreserved. Typically coach C or E have lesser reservations also... I think they try and keep C for party bookings actually. Coach K will also be reserved and frequently is for Advance tickets.

Coach C is kept for party bookings, since I've been in party bookings in Coach C!

 

[silentone]

So is the timetable signed off and finished?

At a guess it's complete because what I was looking at was something fairly final.

As for the coach layouts, they are currently labelled as simply as possible. Niether sets could be labelled the same as it would be physically impossible.

 

[jopsuk]

There are nine passenger carriages in each formation. The catering vehicle would have to be turned round to achieve it. What I'd actually do is change the mrk4s- I'd take out K, reconfigure as standard class (relatively easily done) and reinsert it as G. I'd then turn the catering vehicle, and put 1st class seating in.

I just don't understand the rational- and it was put in place by BR- of having the two different formations. Makes things awkward when an HST substitutes for an Electric set, amongst other things!

 

[sprinterguy]

On the subject of Eureka!. I managed to get myself a little peek at parts of the new timetable the other day. The fast Edb-KGX service is the 0540 calling at Newcastle only with a booked arrival of 0940! I can't remember the time of the return but it's Newcastle, Edinburgh & Glasgow. (It may well have been 1820) Some of the times don't appear to be much like the published draft at all and I'm guessing the fast return trip will be the much anticipated Pendo service.

No York stop? hock: Good grief, how many years has it been since any East Coast expresses have bypassed York?

 

[Failed Unit]

No York stop? hock: Good grief, how many years has it been since any East Coast expresses have bypassed York?

I think the last one regularly to do it was the 0700 tees-Tyne Pullman i think the York stop was added in the mid 90s by GNER.

I am not sure on the loadings to be honest. The existing services are full but a lot of people use Darlington and York. I hope it isn't like the 1630 London to Glasgow virgin service. Headline time but poorly loaded.

 

[DarloRich]

No York stop? hock: Good grief, how many years has it been since any East Coast expresses have bypassed York?

Avoiding line or throught the station?

Can remember getting the Tyne Tees Pullman from Darlo, non stop to KX in the 1980's

 

[sprinterguy]

Avoiding line or throught the station?

Can remember getting the Tyne Tees Pullman from Darlo, non stop to KX in the 1980's

Just generally really. I assume if the Tyne Tees Pullman ran non-stop in the late eighties/early nineties it used the avoiding lines? And I assume the new service will do the same.

 

[Failed Unit]

I used it once so not really a good sample. We went through the station very slowly.

 

[DarloRich]

Slowly through the station on the old centre road I think (if the old brain isnt failing me!) Had to get a railtour to get the avoider

 

[sprinterguy]

Slowly through the station on the old centre road I think (if the old brain isnt failing me!) Had to get a railtour to get the avoider

Fair enough, I'm most curious about what the arrangement was once the centre road at York was taken out in about 1990(?), as that'll probably give the best clue as to how it'll be done from May, interesting nonetheless.

 

[David Dunning]

Fair enough, I'm most curious about what the arrangement was once the centre road at York was taken out in about 1990(?), as that'll probably give the best clue as to how it'll be done from May, interesting nonetheless.

I was at York station on the first day of the regular electric service doing an outside broadcast. From what I can remember there were two non stop services in the morning . One fast to Kings Cross last stop Darlo and one last stop from Northallerton . There was also the White Rose pullman which started at York to fill in the gap . The non stop services were supposed to be routed via the avoiding route or at least that was what i was told at the time . The centre roads were removed during electrification

 

[Failed Unit]

Fair enough, I'm most curious about what the arrangement was once the centre road at York was taken out in about 1990(?), as that'll probably give the best clue as to how it'll be done from May, interesting nonetheless.

I suspect the will keep thier options open, we just passed by the platform a reduced speed. I was hoping myself we could go via the avoider, but many reasons could have prevented this such as a freight train in the area.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There's no reason why a service not stopping at York couldn't use the avoiding lines. However, I'm not sure that there is much benefit.

The linespeed is just as low on the avoider (35 & 20mph) as it is through the station (30mph) and it requires crossing over to the slow line(s)* at either end of the station:
at the north end, an Up train would have to cross the Down Fast at the north end,
at the south end, both Up and Down trains would have to cross the Leeds lines at Colton Junction, 5 miles south of the station as well as Up trains crossing the Down Fast for a second time.

* I know that NR will be remodelling the south end of the avoider at Holgate junction in the next 2 years or so but I don't know if that includes a new crossover to allow trains using the avoider to access the Fast lines any closer to York station - but it will still require a move across the Leeds Lines and Up trains crossing the Down Fast.

It seems like a lot of disruption just to avoid using a platform in York Station.

 

[Esurient]

Eureka is going through its final stages now. Been working for EC for about 7 weeks now and have been spending this last week up the acadamey. I can assure you, they are darn determined to back to a GNER standard!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is there anywhere that the actual pdf timetables can be found (once they are confirmed), without having to wait for EC to publish the standard timetables online? Looking good, especially for the non-stop York Scotland headliners, and the new (albeit only one a day) Lincoln services.

 

[cle]

4 hours is a great journey time - and with some slack it'll probably be a shad under. Once that's been proven, maybe by May they can timetable 3h59 and publicise sub-4 hours.

I know from the RUSs that Edinburgh has been losing mode share to planes over the past few years, so this might help.

Looking forward to the new timetable - places such as Retford, Newark and Grantham are easily served by Hull Trains and the semi-fast York/Lincoln trains (now just to Newark?) - with the odd stop on a Leeds train too.

There have always been too many stops south of York on long-distance trains - and Leeds passengers especially, have suffered these. Some Class 350 Trent Valley-style operations should be brought in to cover these centres, with some peak Inter City stops.

 

[Aictos]

There have always been too many stops south of York on long-distance trains - and Leeds passengers especially, have suffered these. Some Class 350 Trent Valley-style operations should be brought in to cover these centres, with some peak Inter City stops.

WAGN under National Express did have a proposal to run Kings Cross to Doncaster using their trains which would have meant had the proposal been accepted that the Long Distance services would have been faster.

However this failed for a number of reasons, one of which was the requirement for both guard and driver north of Peterborough although seeing as National Express had both the WAGN and Central Trains franchises at the time, it shouldn't have been a issue to use WAGN traincrew between Peterborough and Kings Cross operating the service as a WAGN service and use Central Trains traincrew between Doncaster and Peterborough operating the service as a Central Trains service.

Note WAGN also proposed for the 4 tracks to be reinstated between Huntingdon and Holme and Fletton to Peterborough as well which would have helped together with a Parkway station in the Hampton area.

 

[jopsuk]

Surely if suitable equipment was installed (and if they were talking 4-tracking, new stations etc that would surely have been a minor consideration) at the stations DOO operation would have been possible north of Peterborough? Or have guards for just that section?

As for stock, I'd have investigated supplying Southeasten with more 377s, and looked at converting 465s to 365s- could have set up the GN route with essentially just two classes (365s and 313s) with the current 317s and 321s elsewhere.
Much as interchange at Peterborough from Cambridge onto trains direct to Scotland makes me happy, I don't think I'd be too upset if East Coast were essentially non-stop Doncaster-London.

 

[brompton rail]

321s are 100mph trains and East Coast requires 125 mph (or so the RR says) otherwise capacity is reduced.

 

[LE Greys]

* I know that NR will be remodelling the south end of the avoider at Holgate junction in the next 2 years or so but I don't know if that includes a new crossover to allow trains using the avoider to access the Fast lines any closer to York station - but it will still require a move across the Leeds Lines and Up trains crossing the Down Fast.

It seems like a lot of disruption just to avoid using a platform in York Station.

Good, it's about time. That should avoid a far bigger problem, Leeds-bound TPXs leaving the station and crossing in front of northbound ECs. This would concentrate southbound Newcastle/Middlesborough services in P9, with the option of running them through P3 if there is an EC already in the platform.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely if suitable equipment was installed (and if they were talking 4-tracking, new stations etc that would surely have been a minor consideration) at the stations DOO operation would have been possible north of Peterborough? Or have guards for just that section?

As for stock, I'd have investigated supplying Southeasten with more 377s, and looked at converting 465s to 365s- could have set up the GN route with essentially just two classes (365s and 313s) with the current 317s and 321s elsewhere.
Much as interchange at Peterborough from Cambridge onto trains direct to Scotland makes me happy, I don't think I'd be too upset if East Coast were essentially non-stop Doncaster-London.

I like the idea of that. Probably, most Leeds and Newcastle services would continue to stop at Peterborough, but perhaps not Grantham. Reopening Helpston, Tallington, Essendine, Corby Glen and Great Ponton would be possibilities with four tracks, but unlikely. The big problem would be Stoke Tunnel (obviously) but everything can be solved. An extension all the way to Doncaster would make it possible to reopen Bawtry at least, with East Markham and Claypole also possible. However, all of this is decidedly unlikely.

As for the Networkers, that's a good idea as well.