East Coast rumours?

[chic]

It would probably be far easier sticking a pantograph coach on a 220/221/222

Fair point.

 

[Aictos]

This seems like an opportunity for some photoshopping...

You saw my post on the Photoshopped thread, didn't you

The East Coast livery certainly suits the 390,

 

[jon0844]

And while this flurry of Pendolino stories have been flying round, which was apparently not a scheduled press release by East Coast, and not expected to be announced today

As I said, it was weird that while EC put the release out, it seemed to be attributed to Alstom. Did they want to announce it early, forcing DOR to put something out? Was it because the 'cat was out of the bag' from the rumours?

One thing EC HAS just done is re-launch their "Minature Prices" low-price Advance ticket advertising campaign, with door to door leaflet drops and localised campaigns concentrating on journeys from local stations. (eg " 55,000 one-way tickets from £7:50 released every week from Newcastle to Edinburgh "). The campaign is scheduled to run for 11 weeks.

I had an email newsletter with this showing special offers with the number of tickets being issued each week.

And tied into that campaign is an on-line competition to win £1,000 worth of PC World vouchers.

Hmm. PC World. That suggests the possibility that they are doing something with their Wi-Fi service? Perhaps the £1k of PC World vouchers will enable someone to buy a laptop or iPad?

Now, could it be that they're offering a facility to offer more than just the Internet over Wi-Fi? There's nothing to stop them offering more, bearing in mind that they have a server that provides local info (where you are on a map) which is rather basic. There's absolutely nothing to stop them upgrading the system to offer streaming of video from a local server (doing away with the need to have a stable satellite Internet connection). Given how many people have laptops, smartphones or media players with Wi-Fi that would make perfect sense, especially given that when you first connect you're taken to the landing page.

And it exists already on some flights in the USA which offer both Internet and locally hosted content.

Oooh, I hope I'm right!! However, now there's talk of next May and a new timetable, perhaps I'm not.

 

[moggie]

Why send a Pendo to the East Coast which allegedly does not need a tilting train as it's so straight? And, as an aside are they really going to spend money to fit TASS balise south of Donny and all that goes with doing this for one train. (I assume there not fittted). Or are they not going to test the tilt system south of Donny? Not call Daft for nothing are they? :roll:

Now, this starts to sound like a plan to acheive a tilt ready infrastructure on EC under the pretext of Pendo Testing - maybe a cunning plan tucked away in there somewhere???

 

[DaveNewcastle]

And tied into that campaign is an on-line competition to win £1,000 worth of PC World vouchers.

Hmm. PC World. That suggests the possibility that they are doing something with their Wi-Fi service? Perhaps the £1k of PC World vouchers will enable someone to buy a laptop or iPad?

Now, could it be that they're offering a facility to offer more than just the Internet over Wi-Fi?
. . . .
Oooh, I hope I'm right!! However, now there's talk of next May and a new timetable, perhaps I'm not.

Good guess, I'd say, but the timing doesn't seem right.
Though the copy for the PC World offer does include a large pic of a laptop with tag "Win the perfect travel companion".
But the dates don't tie up - the PC World offer expires 31st October.
Otherwise, your reasoning seems to be sound - (but I don't know the facts). My guess, by elimination, is that it will probably be the introduction of some sort of IT-based service. (and there was me hoping for a bigger kitchen and an on-board wine cellar).

 

[jon0844]

I tried looking on the website for the company that provides the system to EC (Icomera, a Swedish company) and saw this:

August 3rd 2010 - National Express East Anglia Selects Icomera for On-Train Wi-Fi.

Icomera, the world's leading provider of broadband gateways for transport, announced that National Express East Anglia (NXEA) has awarded the company a multi-year contract to install and maintain Internet connectivity on inter-city services between London's Liverpool Street Station and Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich, in the East of England. NXEA plans to introduce Wi-Fi services for passengers on these routes at the end of 2010. The initiative has been partly funded by a £346,000 ($576,000) grant from the East of England Development Agency (EEDA) and Norfolk and Suffolk County Councils. The investment will enhance perceptions of the mainline service, by offering commuters, business travelers and leisure users access to Wi-Fi which is now increasingly seen as a key component of an intercity-style rail service. NXEA awarded the contract to Icomera following a competitive tender process.

What I didn't see was any news about them offering any extra services like I hoped for!

 

[silentone]

When the Eureka timetable comes into effect EC trainsets will still be sent to Polmadie for overnight servicing as Craigentinny cannot handle the number of sets planned to be stabled overnight in Edinburgh.

While it would make sense to have it on the Glasgow runs it's more likely to be put on the planned fast service and use it as a marketing ploy.

 

[Lampshade]

It looks like the reason for the Glasgow run is so that it can start from / return to Polmadie depot - which makes sense.

Out of interest, how would the Pendo compare with the 225 / HST for number of seats, given that it doesn't have two vehicles which can't carry passengers, which the 225 / HST have.

225 capacity: 536
11 car 390 capacity: 561 (approx)

But with much less luggage space, comfort, windows etc.

 

[LE Greys]

I've often wondered why they needed TASS at all; APT managed fine without it. Are Pendys slightly out of gauge when tilted right over? I'm sure that APT coaches (and MkIVs for that matter) are narrower at the top than Pendys. That brings me onto something else. I always ask this, but how feasible is it to retrofit tilt to MkIVs? They really should have done it with the 'Mallard' overhauls a few years back. A passive tilt system would probably not be all that difficult to design and install (and would also work in reverse when stopped on a superelevated curve). No need to do the 91s, but the driver might need a seatbelt.

There are quite a few curves on the ECML, Hatfield, Offord, Peterborough, Grantham, Markham and Bawtry just to name a few south of Doncaster. Cutting down on acceleration and braking would provide quite a power saving (91s don't have regenerative braking) as well as a time saving. A regular 4hr service to Edinburgh and 2hr to Leeds would be ideal.

 

[moggie]

LE G - slightly tongue in cheek re the straight ECML but that was always the reason given for not using tilt on the MkIV's as I recall. I've no idea how easy it would be to fit tilt retrospectively but they were designed with for a future tilt application - presumably when they had designed a few more bends onto ECML

ATP used a system of 4ft located passive Transponders when introduced onto WCML. I assume this was to advise entry speed approaching the bend but am unsure how this tied into the tilt system. I believe that Pendo's with tilt failure in the tilted position meeting with one coming the other way also with tilt fail, both leening toward one another, get pretty near to being out of guage - I'd be interested to know how near. I presume this mode of failure would be unlikely.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I've no idea how easy it would be to fit tilt retrospectively but they were designed with for a future tilt application . . .

Quite correct. They were designed to tilt, and constructed to enable the retro-fitting of tilt.
I don't have immediate access to the cost for the reto-fit at the time of manufacture 20 or so years ago, but whatever he figure was would not be applicable now.

However, I'm not persuaded that there would be significant speed benefits. The design also anticipated 140mph running, and perhaps some speed increases through the curves of County Durham and elsewhere could have reduced journey times. But not much. The sustained 140mph through the long straight runs in Lincolshoire and Yorkshire would have shaved more minutes off journey times.

and as ever, we come back to constraints of the network as a whole, with local stoppers, freight, maintenance and ECS movements all competing for its capacity.

 

[LE Greys]

LE G - slightly tongue in cheek re the straight ECML but that was always the reason given for not using tilt on the MkIV's as I recall. I've no idea how easy it would be to fit tilt retrospectively but they were designed with for a future tilt application - presumably when they had designed a few more bends onto ECML

ATP used a system of 4ft located passive Transponders when introduced onto WCML. I assume this was to advise entry speed approaching the bend but am unsure how this tied into the tilt system. I believe that Pendo's with tilt failure in the tilted position meeting with one coming the other way also with tilt fail, both leening toward one another, get pretty near to being out of guage - I'd be interested to know how near. I presume this mode of failure would be unlikely.

AFAIK, most tilt systems are self-levelling. They had a few experiences with APT-E where the vertical ram system failed on one side, leaving the coach stuck and the train limping along. For APT-P, they redesigned it so that it levelled out if it failed. This produced a very curious failure on a press run just south of Beattock, just as a Scottish Region press officer was standing with a cup of coffee explaining how smooth the ride was. He went flying! It's not funny really, but . . .

 

[BOSCH]

One thing EC HAS just done is re-launch their "Minature Prices" low-price Advance ticket advertising campaign

And they've used "Marilyn" in one of the posters,eeh the cheeky B'stards !!!!

 

[Aictos]

Well, blame Grand Central for being trend setters then!

 

[swt_passenger]

Why send a Pendo to the East Coast which allegedly does not need a tilting train as it's so straight? And, as an aside are they really going to spend money to fit TASS balise south of Donny and all that goes with doing this for one train. (I assume there not fittted). Or are they not going to test the tilt system south of Donny? Not call Daft for nothing are they? :roll:

Now, this starts to sound like a plan to acheive a tilt ready infrastructure on EC under the pretext of Pendo Testing - maybe a cunning plan tucked away in there somewhere???

Why are so many posters thinking about TASS balise installation? Surely a 390 can run at 125 mph without tilt where that is already the ruling line speed, as on the ECML...

 

[ukrob]

Why are so many posters thinking about TASS balise installation? Surely a 390 can run at 125 mph without tilt where that is already the ruling line speed, as on the ECML...

They are only passed for 110 without tilt on the WCML - and they are a rough ride at 110mph without tilt turned on on brand new track, so it is debatable if they would run any faster than that.

Regardless of trackside equipment, does anyone know if they are PASSED for more than 110mph without tilt?

 

[NightatLaira]

I am sure the super voyagers were doing 125mph back in the day before their tilt mechanisms were turned on...

I don't know how their systems compare to 390s

 

[rail-britain]

I am sure the super voyagers were doing 125mph back in the day before their tilt mechanisms were turned on

I was advised that all Voyagers were operating at up to 125mph (and still currently do) between Edinburgh and York

It didn't make any difference to have the tilt active as there was no TASS installed on the route

 

[Pumbaa]

Regardless of trackside equipment, does anyone know if they are PASSED for more than 110mph without tilt?

Yes they are - during testing there were two sections of track (one between Crewe and Norton Bridge, the second between Nuneaton and Rugby) that were cleared for 125 non-EPS to test them.

Irritatingly, the highest non-EPS limit on WCML now is 110. The special sections were removed by 2004.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can I just say that is a stupid ****ing idea; DafT ego taking over again I see. VRG have developed (as far as I can see) a sound plan, far more sound than giving DOR a 390 to have a play with. Stick it on the WCML and be done with it.

VRG are also managing the introduction of the new trains, so makes good sense to give it to their patch of ground to test dontcha think?!

 

[moggie]

I make the observation re TASS / Tilt not being fitted to ECML south of Donny based on the understanding that the purpose of using them on East Coast is to undertake testing of the new units. I would think that the various tilt related tests would be a fairly significant element of this?

Another point occurred to me is the position of signals in relation to OLE neutral sections / position of Pendo pantographs, such that starting from rest doesn't result in stalling. As the pantograph on a pendo is in a different position in the train then class 91 / MkIV sets there'f further potential for wasteful expenditure. I appreciate there are two on a pendo but I imagine there's a rather protracted process to swap in unplanned circumstances.

 

[northwichcat]

Why aren't Virgin switching the 390s currently in service to put the 11 car ones on to the Scotland-London services and putting the 9 car ones in to storage until the enhanced timetable?

Although, it does make sense for trains to not be in storage with current overcrowding problems so Virgin should be putting 11 car ones on Scotland-London to free up the 9 car ones to replace Super Voyagers on the Scotland-Birmingham services and offering to sublease the Super Voyagers to XC, who could then sublease the HSTs that they 'don't like'.

 

[jon0844]

If EC is only going to use one new 390, I would have thought that they could organise a loan to Virgin Trains. The Government gets some positive PR, while the trains don't actually become part of the current franchise.

 

[Geezertronic]

Why aren't Virgin switching the 390s currently in service to put the 11 car ones on to the Scotland-London services and putting the 9 car ones in to storage until the enhanced timetable?

Although, it does make sense for trains to not be in storage with current overcrowding problems so Virgin should be putting 11 car ones on Scotland-London to free up the 9 car ones to replace Super Voyagers on the Scotland-Birmingham services and offering to sublease the Super Voyagers to XC, who could then sublease the HSTs that they 'don't like'.

From what I understand, it's not Virgin's decision - it's DfT's

 

[rail-britain]

It appears a "war of words" has now broken out between DfT and Virgin Trains

Virgin Trains is adamant it has the rights to operate the new trains
It is going to put all of them into service between Scotland and Birmingham, releasing an equal number of Voyagers (although no details of what they plan to do with these)

This would mean there would be no Pendolino for East Coast
However DfT argues that it has not yet agreed to lease these new trains to Virgin Trains, within their current franchise...
Equally, Virgin Trains has advised that if this does go ahead it would not cover the costs of repainting the "new" trains back into their livery

 

[swt_passenger]

Why aren't Virgin switching the 390s currently in service to put the 11 car ones on to the Scotland-London services and putting the 9 car ones in to storage until the enhanced timetable?

I don't know why people keep asking this. It's because the order is for trains for the new franchise beyond Mar 2012. Only one train is required to be delivered prior to that date, and it's that one train that all the fuss is about.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Virgin Trains is adamant it has the rights to operate the new trains
It is going to put all of them into service between Scotland and Birmingham, releasing an equal number of Voyagers (although no details of what they plan to do with these)

According to the Virgin statement I read they don't say they are 'adamant that they have the rights'.

They only say that a proposal has been made to DfT to bring the units into service early. That isn't new, it's been reported before...

 

[rail-britain]

According to the Virgin statement I read they don't say they are 'adamant that they have the rights'

Details are in a further Press Release from today, 17 August
The response is quite firm, "We will be using these new trains to operate this service", I would say that is quite adamant!

 

[Failed Unit]

I wonder if the DaFT's idea is to try and release a mk4 set for C4's as well as doing mileage accumilation. I haven't seen any comment from the ROSCO who ultimately own the trains...

 

[swt_passenger]

Details are in a further Press Release from today, 17 August
The response is quite firm, "We will be using these new trains to operate this service", I would say that is quite adamant!

Got a link?

 

[The Planner]

Tenner says it wont happen, its just someone in the Dft trying to get up Virgins nose, and doing a good job of it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Tenner says it wont happen, its just someone in the Dft trying to get up Virgins nose, and doing a good job of it.

Agree entirely. It's brilliant how it's escalating daily - apparently (above) Virgin are arguing about having to relivery into Virgin colours.

They must be pretty confident they're retaining the franchise then. Maybe someone from DfT or the Rosco could actually have one painted in ECML colours.

Game for a laugh, Richard?