East Coast main line pricing - detached from reality?

[Shimbleshanks]

I've just come back from a return visit from London to Newcastle to see family, which I ended up doing by coach as the train fares were off the scale.

On the train, the so-called super-off peak return was about £135. (The off-peak return is, wait for it, £238!) I've also just done a bit of research for future trips and even booking over two months ahead, in January, I can't get the price below £113.

How many ordinary people earning ordinary money can pay that, just to go to Newcastle and back? And why does an only slightly shorter trip from London to Liverpool cost around £80 off-seak open return - and with much better availablity of very cheap advance tickets, at least in my experience?

OK, the coach took about seven hours, but it was comfortable enough - and the money I saved paid for two slap-up meals for all the family.

 

[cuccir]

With regards to the price of Advances: tickets for weekends in January aren't yet available, so you won't be finding the best prices if that's when you're looking. This is because of an ongoing problem with Network Rail not being able to confirm the dates of and times of engineering work. If you sign up for ticket alerts, you'll be notified when these are released.

There are better value fares out there than the £113 you quote - the first random midweek return from London to Newcastle that I put into the LNER website gave me fares at under £50 return; the second one I chose gave me £65 as a best price. You'll get these prices at weekends too, if you book promptly when tickets are released.

 

[OwlMan]

London to Liverpool is about 180 miles; London -Newcastle about 290 hardly slightly shorter

 

[Shimbleshanks]

London to Liverpool is about 180 miles; London -Newcastle about 290 hardly slightly shorter

Newcastle is 268 miles. Euston to Penrith is the nearest comparison on the West Coast Main Line and its fares are quite a bit lower.
CL

 

[PeterC]

Or around £70 to drive with no restrictions on time of travel.

 

[Ianno87]

Newcastle is 268 miles. Euston to Penrith is the nearest comparison on the West Coast Main Line and its fares are quite a bit lower.
CL

A hangover from the last days of BR when BR pushed up fares on the ECML after electrification etc, but before any WCML upgrades in the privatised era with regulation of fares.

Or around £70 to drive with no restrictions on time of travel.

Just at least a full hour on the journey time. An hour and a half if you want to be sane and take a rest break at least once.

Plus parking costs etc if you're city centre bound.

 

[robbeech]

It’s not unreasonable to consider the car given the high cost of flexible tickets. However it’s a long drive for anyone who isn’t used to long distance driving.
To compare £70 (realistically more if you consider vehicle maintenance) to the £135 ticket is quite a difference. However, where it really comes into it’s own is if 4 travel in the same car. A fraction more fuel but a huge saving on 4 tickets.

 

[Haywain]

How many ordinary people earning ordinary money can pay that, just to go to Newcastle and back?

It's difficult to say but the trains on that route have a relatively high load factor throughout the day and week.

 

[cuccir]

FWIW I do agree with the original poster that the undiscounted fleixble fare is a little steep. If it were priced at (say) £100-120 then I'd think it was reasonable (which would be proportional in terms of journey time with that quoted Liverpool fare too).

 

[yorkie]

It's basically like an airline: you pay a huge premium for walk-up travel and need to book ahead. Even short journeys like York to Newark are astronomical. Of course there are "loopholes" for such journeys but even the loophole fares I buy are too expensive really.

For a journey like York to London, you need to look at combinations of tickets if you travel at peak times (there are sites that will do this for you) , book far in advance and commit to specific trains with Advance fares. I generally get 1st Advance fares at a discounted price that makes them slightly cheaper than the public standard fare, and I typically pay £19-£31. I will travel on trains that are not my first choice to bring the cost down, eg. recently I had to book York to London at relatively short notice but I discovered it was not too bad value to split at Newark on an all stations stopper, so paid about £45.

I also avoid the evening peak trains out of King's Cross, for example I will spend longer in London, or take a different route. The first trains after "peak" time are actually busier. So I will often be on the 2000, 2100 or 2200, so take advantage of reasonable fares.

People who need flexibility and travel at peak time and don't use ticket splitting sites must surely be on expenses for businesses with huge budgets, and are effectively subsiding the rest of us, but all users of LNER are effectively subsidising users of other lines, as the franchise pays a premium. Whether it should be that way or not is debatable but given the high load factors I cannot see this changing for the foreseeable future.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

With regards to the price of Advances: tickets for weekends in January aren't yet available, so you won't be finding the best prices if that's when you're looking. This is because of an ongoing problem with Network Rail not being able to confirm the dates of and times of engineering work. If you sign up for ticket alerts, you'll be notified when these are released.

There are better value fares out there than the £113 you quote - the first random midweek return from London to Newcastle that I put into the LNER website gave me fares at under £50 return; the second one I chose gave me £65 as a best price. You'll get these prices at weekends too, if you book promptly when tickets are released.

This is not intended as disrespectful to Cuccir, but if we are trying to be objective then this isn't a good answer.

All of us here know that the short term solution to expensive fares is using our knowledge - buying well in advance, splitting fares, using loopholes and so on. But we're not normal. For whatever reason, we take a close interest in how to save on our train travel. Most people aren't like that. They expect buying a train ticket to be a simple transaction, maybe like buying a newspaper: wherever you buy it, whenever, you know what cost you will pay.

There are now great tools (train split and so on) that make it easier to deal with the complexity. But the complexity of itself remains a problem. Put formally, the complexity leads to a lack of transparency in fares, so buyers do not have the full knowledge of the market that economic market theory demands.

It might be bad for us here (the abnormal ones who can cope with the complexity) but the long term answer - if there is to be an answer - has to be a simpler fares system. If nothing else, that should mean that overcharging train companies should have nowhere to hide.

 

[deltic]

This is not intended as disrespectful to Cuccir, but if we are trying to be objective then this isn't a good answer.

All of us here know that the short term solution to expensive fares is using our knowledge - buying well in advance, splitting fares, using loopholes and so on. But we're not normal. For whatever reason, we take a close interest in how to save on our train travel. Most people aren't like that. They expect buying a train ticket to be a simple transaction, maybe like buying a newspaper: wherever you buy it, whenever, you know what cost you will pay.

There are now great tools (train split and so on) that make it easier to deal with the complexity. But the complexity of itself remains a problem. Put formally, the complexity leads to a lack of transparency in fares, so buyers do not have the full knowledge of the market that economic market theory demands.

It might be bad for us here (the abnormal ones who can cope with the complexity) but the long term answer - if there is to be an answer - has to be a simpler fares system. If nothing else, that should mean that overcharging train companies should have nowhere to hide.

Simpler fares means higher fares. Railways are expensive to operate and it’s not clear to me why taxpayers should be subsiding trips between Newcastle and London.

 

[InterCity:125]

Simpler fares means higher fares. Railways are expensive to operate and it’s not clear to me why taxpayers should be subsiding trips between Newcastle and London.

Because allowing more affordable train services will allow more people to use the train, meaning they don’t drive and clog up the roads and atmosphere with gas.

 

[yorkie]

This is not intended as disrespectful to Cuccir, but if we are trying to be objective then this isn't a good answer.

All of us here know that the short term solution to expensive fares is using our knowledge - buying well in advance, splitting fares, using loopholes and so on. But we're not normal. For whatever reason, we take a close interest in how to save on our train travel. Most people aren't like that. They expect buying a train ticket to be a simple transaction, maybe like buying a newspaper: wherever you buy it, whenever, you know what cost you will pay.

There are now great tools (train split and so on) that make it easier to deal with the complexity. But the complexity of itself remains a problem. Put formally, the complexity leads to a lack of transparency in fares, so buyers do not have the full knowledge of the market that economic market theory demands.

It might be bad for us here (the abnormal ones who can cope with the complexity) but the long term answer - if there is to be an answer - has to be a simpler fares system. If nothing else, that should mean that overcharging train companies should have nowhere to hide.

It's not complex to use fare "splitting" sites at all; loads of 'average' / 'ordinary' people use them, not just experts!

Most people treat this route the same as an airline and buy Advance fares. It makes no difference how many price tiers there are. The complexity isn't really seen by the customer. They just see the list of prices and make their choice accordingly.

I don't see how this is any different to airlines, yet I've never heard anyone request a reduction in price tiers available.

Yes it would be fantastic if fares were lower but reducing the available fares isn't going to make the booking process any easier.

As for splitting, it's always existed, you can't do anything to stop that. All anyone can do is make it easier by offering them seemlessly in one transaction, which sites now do.

How could you make it simpler without further increasing fares? The OP wants cheaper fares but you propose the opposite?

 

[Ianno87]

Because allowing more affordable train services will allow more people to use the train, meaning they don’t drive and clog up the roads and atmosphere with gas.

But, it might be argued, low fares shouldn't be generating travel for travel's sake. Just that which is socially and/or economically necessary.

 

[deltic]

Because allowing more affordable train services will allow more people to use the train, meaning they don’t drive and clog up the roads and atmosphere with gas.

But UK has some of the cheapest fares in Europe as Seat 61 demonstrates - we can only have those cheap fares because we also have the most expensive generally paid by businesses. Given UK has one the fastest growing rail passenger volumes we must be doing something right. Decarbonisation of road travel will undermine the environmental benefits that rail mainly has at present

 

[yorksrob]

What would help would be if NR and TOC's got their fingers out of their backsides so that advance fares can be offered in a timely fashion. I'm still waiting for fares on one route to be released for 28th December.

If the industry is going to be allowed to jack up walk on fares to unacceptable levels, there must be some acceptance that AP is now the primary type of fare on some routes and there should be some level of regulation. This could be around releasing fares in a timely fashion, ensuring that once train companies decide on prices and quotas that are commercially advantageous, they stick to those prices and quotas and don't withdraw them all at the drop of a hat etc.

 

[BigCj34]

What would help would be if NR and TOC's got their fingers out of their backsides so that advance fares can be offered in a timely fashion. I'm still waiting for fares on one route to be released for 28th December.

If the industry is going to be allowed to jack up walk on fares to unacceptable levels, there must be some acceptance that AP is now the primary type of fare on some routes and there should be some level of regulation. This could be around releasing fares in a timely fashion, ensuring that once train companies decide on prices and quotas that are commercially advantageous, they stick to those prices and quotas and don't withdraw them all at the drop of a hat etc.

I'm waiting for New Years Eve tickets tickets to be released my Virgin. I have a 50% off voucher that is valid on one return journey on advance tickets. The outward tickets are available for 22nd December, the return ticket is a long time coming.

 

[cuccir]

This is not intended as disrespectful to Cuccir, but if we are trying to be objective then this isn't a good answer.

All of us here know that the short term solution to expensive fares is using our knowledge - buying well in advance, splitting fares, using loopholes and so on. But we're not normal. For whatever reason, we take a close interest in how to save on our train travel. Most people aren't like that. They expect buying a train ticket to be a simple transaction, maybe like buying a newspaper: wherever you buy it, whenever, you know what cost you will pay.

There are now great tools (train split and so on) that make it easier to deal with the complexity. But the complexity of itself remains a problem. Put formally, the complexity leads to a lack of transparency in fares, so buyers do not have the full knowledge of the market that economic market theory demands.

It might be bad for us here (the abnormal ones who can cope with the complexity) but the long term answer - if there is to be an answer - has to be a simpler fares system. If nothing else, that should mean that overcharging train companies should have nowhere to hide.

While I agree with some of what you're saying, the point of my post was not really about being clever or even about splitting tickets; it was to highlight that the apparently poor value in January may well be a result of the specific current issue whereby Advance fares, particularly at weekends, are not being released at their usual 12 week window. I don't think knowledge about Advance fares is particularly specialist; indeed, I think most of us know that the message 'book in advance' which is well understood by the public is actually a bit of a simplification. I'd concede that if booking sites aren't making this lack of availability clear at the moment, well that's a problem.

 

[cuccir]

FWIW, I agree that the walk-up price is a bit much. If you had to ask me, then I might say that £100-120 is something like reasonable; indeed if we compare the initially quoted Liverpool return price £80, which has been presented as reasonable, and multiply that by a fifth for the approximate extra journey time, then we get £96 - but I think there has to be an acknowledgement that the ECML may need to be a little more expensive than the WCML due to the human geography of the UK, namely, due to the higher population along the WCML than the ECML and the greater distances of the major population centers from London.

Where I'd take issue is the claim that it's "detached from reality" as in the original title of this thread. I think it's a bit expensive; I don't find it shocking though.

 

[30907]

FWIW, I agree that the walk-up price is a bit much. If you had to ask me, then I might say that £100-120 is something like reasonable; indeed if we compare the initially quoted Liverpool return price £80, which has been presented as reasonable, and multiply that by a fifth for the approximate extra journey time, then we get £96

Or if you multiply by 1.5 to reflect the distances involved you get £120 (It should be £87×268/193 to be pedantic, but that's only slightly more), which is maybe 10% cheaper pro rata.

 

[PeterC]

A hangover from the last days of BR when BR pushed up fares on the ECML after electrification etc, but before any WCML upgrades in the privatised era with regulation of fares.



Just at least a full hour on the journey time. An hour and a half if you want to be sane and take a rest break at least once.

Plus parking costs etc if you're city centre bound.

The time issue would be largely compensated by not having to drive to a station to get a train to central London and then trundle between terminals on the tube.
If not driving all the way there is still station parking or a cab to pay on the way out and probably a cab at the other end as well.
It is always the "last mile" (more more likely last 5 miles) issues that are the key to the decision to drive or use the train.

Once you allow for a cab to be late and your train into London to be delayed on top of the journey time to Kings Cross the time advantage of the centre to centre journey starts to evaporate.

 

[IceAgeComing]

I'm waiting for New Years Eve tickets tickets to be released my Virgin. I have a 50% off voucher that is valid on one return journey on advance tickets. The outward tickets are available for 22nd December, the return ticket is a long time coming.

I spent a while waiting on the 7th January to be released by LNER (still hasn't; I just checked) and when they released the eighth I gave up and just got one then and took an extra day of holiday at work: got a £17.50 ticket Stirling-London which is... well; pretty impressive and certainly going to be cheaper and less stressful than travelling the first Sunday of the year. Just goes to show that with a bit of planning and anticipation then train fares aren't always an issue.

That's the thing with open returns: generally if you're making a trip on the ECML of any real distance you are probably planning it to some degree and I think that planning the trains that you want is a part of that. I don't know if that's because I've only ever gone Scotland-London on it when it is an all-day thing and you aim for certain trains from the start anyway; perhaps for shorter distances that's a little different. I had to get very late advances for my trip down at very short notice to view flats (the sort where you're spending a lot of money on the last First Class seat since that's the last one left) but I accepted it at the time since that's what can happen if you wait.

 

[westv]

It's basically like an airline: you pay a huge premium for walk-up travel and need to book ahead.

Wasn't it almost the opposite years ago with Laker's Skytrain?? The closer to departure you turned up the cheaper the fare?
Then again they went bust.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm waiting for New Years Eve tickets tickets to be released my Virgin. I have a 50% off voucher that is valid on one return journey on advance tickets. The outward tickets are available for 22nd December, the return ticket is a long time coming.

Indeed. A consistent approach to when AP tickets became available would be an element of simplification that could really help passengers.

 

[cactustwirly]

Indeed. A consistent approach to when AP tickets became available would be an element of simplification that could really help passengers.

Should be 12 weeks before the date of departure.
However NR hasn't been able to confirm the timetable in time.

 

[paul1609]

Roger Ford has an interesting article on fares v costs in a recent modern railways. Cost per seat on LNER was around 15p per mile assuming every seat was taken on every train. So the break even price per seat for London to Newcastle and back is £80. I don't believe Inter City travel should be subsidised by tax payers so £130 for a walk up ticket sounds about right to me.

 

[Esker-pades]

I find the East Coast advance fares some of the cheapest out there (my regular journey is London to Edinburgh). I usually get 1st Class Advance Singles (with railcard) for £40-45.

 

[cactustwirly]

But that's what intercity travel is like, expensive flexible tickets, but cheap advance tickets.

 

[johntea]

How can coach operators manage to offer very reasonable fares right up to and including the day of departure compared to a rail fare anyway? I know there is the time factor of course but it does make you wonder when you see a train flying by carrying a lot of thin air so to speak!

And the coaches are very comfortable generally with free WiFi and charging sockets by the seats these days too!